LDS Marriage

[Marie5890]

Do you guys not keep trying to separate them, claiming that family and marriage is a distraction from God?

No, we are not claiming that marriage and family are a distraction from God. What we are claiming is that the **greatest source of happiness is God, regardless if one is single or married.
**

For me, marriage and family would be a distraction. For you, it isn’t.

It’s your claim that the greatest source of happiness** is marriage, while walking with God
**

For you, and others called to the vocation of marriage, that is a true statement.
For me, and others, that is a false statement.

What is a true statement in both situations is that, regardless of the situation in life, it’s the walk with God that is the greatest source of happiness.

 

[jane_doe]

No, we are not claiming that marriage and family are a distraction from God. What we are claiming is that the **greatest source of happiness is God, regardless if one is single or married.
**

For me, marriage and family would be a distraction. For you, it isn’t.

Then you would accept a married priest, as the Catholic church practiced historically and some Eastern rites still do?
Or would you view a married priest as inherently distracted?

 

[Horton]

Do you guys not keep trying to separate them, claiming that family and marriage is a distraction from God?

That is not what is being said. Many are called to married life and some are not. We do not separate them at all. We honor those who are following God’s call for their lives. Most of the priests I’ve known have been very happy in their calling, not being married and loving their life. Some of the happiest people I’ve ever met are women religious. When I was in Rome a couple of months ago I saw many sisters who walk with pure visible joy on their face. The calling they followed, allowing God to use them for his work, can never ever be less than a happily married couple.

The Catholic Church honors married couple as well, knowing they are doing the will of God. So much so there are very strict rules about getting married. The Catholic Church accepts mixed marriages as much as marriage between two Catholics. One of most holy woman I know is married to a non Catholic. He is good man to his wife & children. He comes to Mass every week and I’ve seen him bring his kids in for confession and wait for them to be done.

The eternal marriage idea defies logic & reason, as well as the bible. In other posts upthread it’s been explained the bible even speaks of the idea that not all are suited to marriage. So who the believe? Those who taught the faith from it’s origin and put it in writing or a man who 1800 years later made the claim only married men can get to heaven and a woman can only go as a wife?

 

[Marie5890]

Then you would accept a married priest, as the Catholic church practiced historically and some Eastern rites still do?
Or would you view a married priest as inherently distracted?

Absolutely and completely, and I don’t personally know any Catholic who would not accept a married priest. There are married priests within the Catholic church today. It’s only within the Latin rite that the priests are celibate as a matter of discipline.

catholic.com/quickquestions/why-are-eastern-rite-married-men-allowed-to-be-ordained-priests

Full Question

Eastern-rite Catholics allow for the priestly ordination of married men. Since they are in communion with Rome, why are they not held to the same discipline as Roman-rite priests?
Answer

Because priestly celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine, and so there is room for diversity on the issue according to the customs of the respective rites. If celibacy were a doctrine, all rites would have to conform to the judgment of the Holy See on the matter because doctrines are true for everybody. But celibacy is a discipline (a practice that is legislated by proper ecclesial authority) that has been deemed to be spiritually beneficial. In the Latin rite, this spiritual discipline ordinarily is required of all men who seek priestly ordination. In the Eastern rites, it is practiced by the monks and by some secular priests, but it is not required of all men who seek ordination. Out of respect for the longstanding customs of the Eastern-rite churches, the Vatican allows the Eastern churches in communion with the Holy See to maintain their own properly constituted discipline on this issue.

 

[Horton]

Absolutely and completely, and I don’t personally know any Catholic who would not accept a married priest. There are married priests within the Catholic church today. It’s only within the Latin rite that the priests are celibate as a matter of discipline.

catholic.com/quickquestions/why-are-eastern-rite-married-men-allowed-to-be-ordained-priests

Full Question

Eastern-rite Catholics allow for the priestly ordination of married men. Since they are in communion with Rome, why are they not held to the same discipline as Roman-rite priests?
Answer

Because priestly celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine, and so there is room for diversity on the issue according to the customs of the respective rites. If celibacy were a doctrine, all rites would have to conform to the judgment of the Holy See on the matter because doctrines are true for everybody. But celibacy is a discipline (a practice that is legislated by proper ecclesial authority) that has been deemed to be spiritually beneficial. In the Latin rite, this spiritual discipline ordinarily is required of all men who seek priestly ordination. In the Eastern rites, it is practiced by the monks and by some secular priests, but it is not required of all men who seek ordination. Out of respect for the longstanding customs of the Eastern-rite churches, the Vatican allows the Eastern churches in communion with the Holy See to maintain their own properly constituted discipline on this issue.

There are men who were called to the priesthood or religious life after a marriage. In my state there are a group of women religious who are formed especially for late vocations, even if there was a previous marriage. Of course there has to be a decree of nullity if divorced.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a Christian Church who has the same idea of marriage as the LDS. I could be wrong but outside of LDS circles I’ve never heard of it.

 

[Marie5890]

There are men who were called to the priesthood or religious life after a marriage. In my state there are a group of women religious who are formed especially for late vocations, even if there was a previous marriage. Of course there has to be a decree of nullity if divorced.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a Christian Church who has the same idea of marriage as the LDS. I could be wrong but outside of LDS circles I’ve never heard of it.

I think of CAF’s own JREducation, though he isn’t on as much as he used to be. Not a priest, but a religious Franciscan.

Married with 3 kids I believe. When he became a widower, he discerned his vocation to religious life.

His writings were such a great blessing to me when I was coming into full communion and for several years after. His knowledge of what the Church really teaches and Her traditions was a well-spring of wisdom and catechesis. In many ways I thought I knew Catholic teaching on many subjects, but Bro Jay showed me I was mistaken in my understanding.

His writing illuminated what Bishop Sheen said

"Not 100 people in the United States hate the Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly think the Catholic Church is.” Bishop Fulton Sheen

 

[Horton]

LDS are not separating those two. Notice how I keep saying a marriage walking with God.

But you are making it clear the the LDS believe it has to be the two combined in order to reach the upper levels.

We are saying our walk with God is our greatest happiness regardless of which vocation we find ourselves in. I’ve been single a long time having a relationship with God. Tomorrow I meet a man that has the qualities I want in a man and is Catholic & free to marry. A year from now we get married. My relationship with God hasn’t changed just because I married. God would still come first, marriage second. The husband I chose would feel the same way.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Do you guys not keep trying to separate them, claiming that family and marriage is a distraction from God?

Of course not. Marriage, also known as the matrimonial covenant in Catholicism, is a sacrament. Catholics do not view marriage as better than celibacy, nor does it view celibacy as better than marriage. Both are of God, and some are called to a life of celibacy while some are called to a life of marriage.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

**1620 Both the sacrament of Matrimony and virginity for the Kingdom of God come from the Lord himself. It is he who gives them meaning and grants them the grace which is indispensable for living them out in conformity with his will.117 Esteem of virginity for the sake of the kingdom118 and the Christian understanding of marriage are inseparable, and they reinforce each other:

Whoever denigrates marriage also diminishes the glory of virginity. Whoever praises it makes virginity more admirable and resplendent. What appears good only in comparison with evil would not be truly good. The most excellent good is something even better than what is admitted to be good.**

The entire section of the Catechism on Matrimony would probably be helpful for you to understand how Catholics view the sacrament:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a7.htm

What seems to be the issue for some Catholics when looking at the Mormon view on marriage is not that we don’t hold marriage in high regard (we do), but that it is tied to eternal life, and that to receive the highest eternal blessings, one must be eternally sealed to a spouse. To me this of course is related to the idea that God the Father has a spouse Himself, Heavenly Mother, and therefore to receive eternal life, to live the life that God lives, one must also be eternally married, just like He is.

So to emphasize, for Catholics, we believe that both marriage and celibacy are of God, and one isn’t better than the other. Some are called to one, others are called to the other. Both glorify God. For Catholics, your salvation is not tied to being married or celibate.

Then you would accept a married priest, as the Catholic church practiced historically and some Eastern rites still do?
Or would you view a married priest as inherently distracted?

The Catholic Church, as you mentioned, has married priests today, most being in the Eastern Catholic churches. For Roman Catholics, where celibate priests is the norm, we also know that this is a discipline, not a dogma, and that theoretically, Roman priests could be married men in the future.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

The whole issue of eternal marriage is very complicated. Regardless of how some may want to soften the reality in it’s simplest form only men with a temple marriage in this life will get to heaven. A woman’s only path to heaven is through a man, they are unable to get to heaven without being married to a LDS man.

What it boils down to is women in an unsuitable marriage, such as non temple marriage, will be married to a LDS man as a second or third or more wife. (The man’s earthly wife is the first wife) As I quoted in the OP men who are not married can not achieve the Kingdom of God.

You mentioned in another thread your husband is an atheist. I would think you would factor in this information in your choice.

So I should be LDS then? It’s the only faith were as an atheist, he has a chance of heaven.

I think it’s women are unable to get to the highest degree of the highest heaven (celestial kingdom) and men too! Remember LDS have three heavens and the celestial has three parts too! So an unmarried person can attain the lowest degree of the celestial kingdom (I think)

 

[jane_doe]

Remember LDS have three heavens and the celestial has three parts too! So an unmarried person can attain the lowest degree of the celestial kingdom (I think)

Correct, and the mid as well.

 

[zaffiroborant]

So I should be LDS then? It’s the only faith were as an atheist, he has a chance of heaven.

I think it’s women are unable to get to the highest degree of the highest heaven (celestial kingdom) and men too! Remember LDS have three heavens and the celestial has three parts too! So an unmarried person can attain the lowest degree of the celestial kingdom (I think)

Is it really what you’d call heaven if you are not in the presence of The Father and The Son?

 

[Horton]

So I should be LDS then? It’s the only faith were as an atheist, he has a chance of heaven.

I think it’s women are unable to get to the highest degree of the highest heaven (celestial kingdom) and men too! Remember LDS have three heavens and the celestial has three parts too! So an unmarried person can attain the lowest degree of the celestial kingdom (I think)

In LDS theology I believe your husband as an atheist would be forced into eternal darkness which is where they consign the rest of us non LDS who reject their claim of being the one true church.

In Catholicism we believe in a merciful and loving God. We don’t believe there is pre-arrangement made by mere men to determine who goes where. While we believe there is a hell (eternal darkness) we can’t know if anyone is actually there. When I was in RCIA years ago we had a long discussion on this topic. Speculating who may be in hell based on their horrific actions on earth. People such as Hitler, the 9/11 terrorists, Ted Bundy and so on. On it’s face we can say oh yes people like that are in hell for sure…but are they? Do we know what happened in the seconds before death, did they cry out for mercy like did the thief on the cross? Do we know what was in their hearts at that moment? Do we know how God judged them? The answer is we just don’t know and there can’t be anyway of knowing until we are face to face with God what our judgement will be.

Heaven is one place, not three layers of three layers. Read the new testament and it tells you about heaven. I would suggest for the ease of reading get one in common day language with notes. The Catholic NAB is good for this as there are explanation notes at the end of every chapter. And you can read it for free through a couple of places. One is the USCCB web site usccb.org/ and a free app Laudate here catholicapps.com/laudate/ I use Laudate on both my iPhone and my Android tablets. I’m sure there are more but these are the two I know.

A woman can’t enter any level of LDS kingdoms without being married to an LDS man. If a woman is unmarried in this life or married to an unsuitable spouse ie…an atheist, then she would be given in marriage to an LDS man as a plural wife. There is no biblical evidence of the LDS theory of heaven nor is there any Traditional evidence of it.

 

[jane_doe]

In LDS theology I believe your husband as an atheist would be forced into eternal darkness which is where they consign the rest of us non LDS who reject their claim of being the one true church.

Incorrect. Actually in LDS theology, even a sin-loving ever-atheist who spits of Christ’s face gets to spend eternities resurrected, beyond happy, and in the eternal presence of the Spirit. A person who accepted Christ, but not His fullness, spends eternity with Christ and the Spirit, beyond beyond happy. God is very loving an merciful.

A woman can’t enter any level of LDS kingdoms without being married to an LDS man. If a woman is unmarried in this life or married to an unsuitable spouse ie…an atheist, then she would be given in marriage to an LDS man as a plural wife.

Completely false. You have been corrected repeatedly on this fact.

 

[zaffiroborant]

A person who accepted Christ, but not His fullness, spends eternity with Christ and the Spirit, beyond beyond happy. God is very loving an merciful.

How is never caring to see a person again loving?

 

[jane_doe]

A person who accepted Christ, but not His fullness, spends eternity with Christ and the Spirit, beyond beyond happy. God is very loving an merciful.

How is never caring to see a person again loving?

This person spends eternity with Christ and the Spirit and is beyond beyond happy. There is no torture, no hellfire. They cannot dwell in the presence of the Father, because they choose not to fully embrace the Gospel and God will not force them to.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

In LDS theology I believe your husband as an atheist would be forced into eternal darkness which is where they consign the rest of us non LDS who reject their claim of being the one true church.

In Catholicism we believe in a merciful and loving God. We don’t believe there is pre-arrangement made by mere men to determine who goes where. While we believe there is a hell (eternal darkness) we can’t know if anyone is actually there. When I was in RCIA years ago we had a long discussion on this topic. Speculating who may be in hell based on their horrific actions on earth. People such as Hitler, the 9/11 terrorists, Ted Bundy and so on. On it’s face we can say oh yes people like that are in hell for sure…but are they? Do we know what happened in the seconds before death, did they cry out for mercy like did the thief on the cross? Do we know what was in their hearts at that moment? Do we know how God judged them? The answer is we just don’t know and there can’t be anyway of knowing until we are face to face with God what our judgement will be.

Heaven is one place, not three layers of three layers. Read the new testament and it tells you about heaven. I would suggest for the ease of reading get one in common day language with notes. The Catholic NAB is good for this as there are explanation notes at the end of every chapter. And you can read it for free through a couple of places. One is the USCCB web site usccb.org/ and a free app Laudate here catholicapps.com/laudate/ I use Laudate on both my iPhone and my Android tablets. I’m sure there are more but these are the two I know.

A woman can’t enter any level of LDS kingdoms without being married to an LDS man. If a woman is unmarried in this life or married to an unsuitable spouse ie…an atheist, then she would be given in marriage to an LDS man as a plural wife. There is no biblical evidence of the LDS theory of heaven nor is there any Traditional evidence of it.

Thank-you for the links!

While I am not convinced Mormonism is true, I’m still on my journey. I seem to have a different understanding of it than you do. I’m not sure if I have my facts wrong or?

My understanding is that LDS believe very very few people will go to outer darkness, mainly the devil and those who followed him and people who deny the holy spirit. Even Hitler, the 9/11 terrorists etc will have some degree of glory.

Do you have a reference for women being assigned men? I do not believe this to be the case?

 

[jane_doe]

My understanding is that LDS believe very very few people will go to outer darkness, mainly the devil and those who followed him and people who deny the holy spirit. Even Hitler, the 9/11 terrorists etc will have some degree of glory.

You are correct.

Do you have a reference for women being assigned men? I do not believe this to be the case?

It is not the case.

 

[Horton]

Incorrect. Actually in LDS theology, even a sin-loving ever-atheist who spits of Christ’s face gets to spend eternities resurrected, beyond happy, and in the eternal presence of the Spirit. A person who accepted Christ, but not His fullness, spends eternity with Christ and the Spirit, beyond beyond happy. God is very loving an merciful.

Completely false. You have been corrected repeatedly on this fact.

No…you only tell me incorrect. But yet here it is in black & white from an LDS site lds.org/scriptures/gs/hell?lang=eng

Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).
Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).
The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness.
David’s soul shall not be left in hells. 16:10; ( Ps. 86:13; )
Go into hell, into that fire that never shall be quenched:Mark 9:43; ( Mosiah 2:38; )
The rich man in hell lifts up his eyes, being in torment:Luke 16:22–23; ( D&C 104:18; )
Death and hell delivered up the dead:Rev. 20:13;
There is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell:1Ne. 15:35;
The will of the flesh giveth the spirit of the devil power to bring us down to hell:2Ne. 2:29;
Christ prepared the way for our deliverance from death and hell:2Ne. 9:10–12;
Those who remain filthy go into everlasting torment:2Ne. 9:16;
The devil cheateth their souls and leadeth them away carefully down to hell:2Ne. 28:21;
Jesus hath redeemed my soul from hell:2*Ne. 33:6;
Loose yourselves from the pains of hell:Jacob 3:11;
To be taken captive by the devil and led by his will to destruction are the chains of hell:Alma 12:11;
The wicked are cast into outer darkness until the time of their resurrection:Alma 40:13–14;
The filthy would be more miserable to dwell with God than to dwell in hell:Morm. 9:4;
The punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment: D&C 19:10–12;
Hell is a place prepared for the devil and his angels: D&C 29:37–38;
Those who acknowledge God are delivered from death and the chains of hell: D&C 138:23;
*

And here although I mistakenly called it eternal darkness but it’s actually call Outer Darkness. This paragraph is taken from the official teaching manual of the LDS.
lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng

Outer Darkness
These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. (See D&C 76:28–35, 44–48.)

 

[zaffiroborant]

This person spends eternity with Christ and the Spirit and is beyond beyond happy. There is no torture, no hellfire. They cannot dwell in the presence of the Father, because they choose not to fully embrace the Gospel and God will not force them to.

This just doesn’t make sense to me at all, that you can “embrace”( agree to?) enough for Christ and the Holy Spirit but not enough for the Father or that being acceptable to the Son and Holy Spirit you are still not acceptable to the Father.

 

[jane_doe]

And here although I mistakenly called it eternal darkness but it’s actually call Outer Darkness.

That’s a huge difference.

Outer Darkness
These are they who* had testimonies ***of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. (See D&C 76:28–35, 44–48.)

Horton, how does this support your assertion that an atheist (aka person who’s never had a testimony of Christ) goes to Outer Darkness?