LDS Marriage

[jane_doe]

This just doesn’t make sense to me at all, that you can “embrace”( agree to?) enough for Christ and the Holy Spirit but not enough for the Father or that being acceptable to the Son and Holy Spirit you are still not acceptable to the Father.

Simple: you refuse to allow the Fullness of God’s glory to change you. You’re lax in your testimony of Christ, and resist Him.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Simple: you refuse to allow the Fullness of God’s glory to change you. You’re lax in your testimony of Christ, and resist Him.

It still doesn’t make sense, that you would accept enough to be in the presence of God in Christ but not enough to be in the presence of God the Father. In fact the opposite would make more sense to me, that you accept enough to be in the presence of God the Father but not enough to be in the presence of Christ or the Holy Spirit.

 

[Horton]

Thank-you for the links!

While I am not convinced Mormonism is true, I’m still on my journey. I seem to have a different understanding of it than you do. I’m not sure if I have my facts wrong or?

My understanding is that LDS believe very very few people will go to outer darkness, mainly the devil and those who followed him and people who deny the holy spirit. Even Hitler, the 9/11 terrorists etc will have some degree of glory.

Do you have a reference for women being assigned men? I do not believe this to be the case?

From the official LDS teaching manual. There is a very interesting caveat for the teacher included. lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-38-eternal-marriage?lang=eng

*An eternal marriage must be performed by one who holds the sealing power. The Lord promised, “If a man marry a wife by … the new and everlasting covenant … by him who is anointed, … and if [they] abide in [the Lord’s] covenant, … it … shall be of full force when they are out of the world” (D&C 132:19).

Not only must an eternal marriage be performed by the proper priesthood authority, but it must also be done in one of the holy temples of our Lord. The temple is the only place this holy ordinance can be performed.*

For teachers: All members, whether married or single, need to understand the doctrine of eternal marriage. However, you should be sensitive to the feelings of adults who are not married. As needed, help class members or family members know that all Heavenly Father’s children who are faithful to their covenants in this life will have the opportunity to receive all the blessings of the gospel in the eternities, including the opportunity to have an eternal family.

This is from the site of a former Mormon lifeaftermormonism.net/profiles/blogs/101-nonpublic-or-weird-beliefs-of-mormons

35.***** Women who fail to marry in the temple during their life will be assigned a worthy spouse in the hereafter and likely as a sister wife with a harem of women*

In addition to this I had a co-worker who had left the LDS after getting married. Her husband had converted to LDS prior to marriage so they were able to have a temple marriage. She told me the temple ceremony itself was the major reason they left the LDS. She explained to me that both she & her husband found too many illogical doctrines with the LDS and just couldn’t live that way. All of her family is still LDS but she & her husband and now kids are non-denominational Christian who live their faith every day.

She & I had many long discussions about religion, good respectful discussions even though I’m Catholic and she is Protestant. Since neither of us were trying to convince the other our faith practice was right we were able to just share. She shared with me what the temple marriage ceremony was, all the steps and various sections they went through.

She also told me a great deal of the beliefs of the LDS that aren’t necessarily talked about outside of LDS circles. That is how I learned of women being married to worthy men after death. It’s even been spoken of by other LDS on CAF and ex-LDS on CAF. I have my doubts that you as an investigator will be told how this works. I know this is a difficult truth but I have no reason to doubt my friend or her explanation of her experience as a member of the LDS. She has been truthful and trustworthy in the many years I’ve known her.

I have to run to an appointment now but I can do some searching later. Please read the new testament considering context and audience. It will show you some of the doctrines of the LDS are not true, and if some are not true, can any of it be true.

 

[jane_doe]

It still doesn’t make sense, that you would accept enough to be in the presence of God in Christ but not enough to be in the presence of God the Father.

The Holy Spirit is the first part of the Godhead we encounter. On this Earth the Holy Spirit testifies of Truth and leads us to Christ (2nd). Christ then points us to the Father (3rd). It is the same hereafter.

In fact the opposite would make more sense to me, that you accept enough to be in the presence of God the Father but not enough to be in the presence of Christ or the Holy Spirit.

How do you figure?

 

[zaffiroborant]

In fact the opposite would make more sense to me, that you accept enough to be in the presence of God the Father but not enough to be in the presence of Christ or the Holy Spirit.

How do you figure?

Because billions of people believe with absolute certainty in God without a whit of belief in Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit. If you are going to make it to a lower level of heaven on partial belief it would make sense that that partial belief would be be in God the Father.

 

[jane_doe]

Because billions of people believe with absolute certainty in God without a whit of belief in Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit. If you are going to make it to a lower level of heaven on partial belief it would make sense that that partial belief would be be in God the Father.

Speaking from the LDS perspective: it’s not about belief in one vs the other, but the degree of acceptance the Gospel.

 

[eddie_too]

Jesus said there is NO marriage in heaven. Mt 22:30.

 

[Horton]

Jesus said there is NO marriage in heaven. Mt 22:30.

Must be one of those incorrectly translated parts.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Jesus said there is NO marriage in heaven. Mt 22:30.

I used to think that but now the LDS have explained their perspective it makes sense also.

He actually says:

30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

In other words (from an LDS perspective) marriages arent performed in Heaven. It doesnt say (to an LDS) that marriages in this life (or which occur in their Spirit World) will not be eternal. Basically people have until the resurrection to get married (and sealed) after that no marriages are performed.

 

[Janderich]

I used to think that but now the LDS have explained their perspective it makes sense also.

He actually says:

30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

In other words (from an LDS perspective) marriages arent performed in Heaven. It doesnt say (to an LDS) that marriages in this life (or which occur in their Spirit World) will not be eternal. Basically people have until the resurrection to get married (and sealed) after that no marriages are performed.

Yes, there are even non-LDS biblical scholars who understand Christ’s teaching in this way. For example:

The case put forward by the Sadducees is particularly extreme. Not only had six brothers attempted and failed to impregnate the woman in question, but she had also outlived them all and was single when she died. It is perhaps this last fact which prompts the question: Whose spouse will she be in the resurrection?..Jesus stresses that in the age to come people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Notice what Jesus does not say. He does not say there will be no marriage in the age to come. The use of the terms “γαμουσιν” (gamousin) and “γαμιζονται” (gamizontai) is important, for these terms refer to the gender-specific roles played in early Jewish society by the man and the woman in the process of getting married. The men, being the initiators of the process in such a strongly patriarchal culture, “marry,” while the women are “given in marriage” by their father or another older family member. Thus Mark has Jesus saying that no new marriages will be initiated in the eschatological [resurrection] state. This is surely not the same as claiming that all existing marriages will disappear in the eschatological state.” (Ben Witherington III, The Gospel of Mark: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary, p. 328, italics added)

 

[Horton]

I used to think that but now the LDS have explained their perspective it makes sense also.

He actually says:

30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

In other words (from an LDS perspective) marriages arent performed in Heaven. It doesnt say (to an LDS) that marriages in this life (or which occur in their Spirit World) will not be eternal. Basically people have until the resurrection to get married (and sealed) after that no marriages are performed.

It is a simple thing to take one verse and twist it to mean what one wants it to mean. To understand the meaning of any verse in the bible you must consider context and audience. Who is the speaker/writer speaking to and in what context? You also have to understand the cultural practice of the times. In this text Jesus is responding to a gotcha question from the Sadducees about resurrection. The Sadducees were actually trying to trip Jesus up so they could claim he was a fraud. There is nothing in there supporting marriage in the heaven or that marriage continues in heaven or anything of the sort. There is no biblical support for the LDS idea of the 1000 years thing either.

When the missionaries or other LDS try to explain the meaning of a biblical verse please read the whole chapter or section to gain some context of audience and culture.

Matthew 22:23-33
*The Question About the Resurrection.
23 On that day Sadducees approached him, saying that there is no resurrection. They put this question to him,
24 saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies without children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up descendants for his brother.’
25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died and, having no descendants, left his wife to his brother.
26 The same happened with the second and the third, through all seven.
27 Finally the woman died.
28 Now at the resurrection, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had been married to her.”
**29 Jesus said to them in reply, “You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God.
30 At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.
*31 And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God,
32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.
*

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, there are even non-LDS biblical scholars who understand Christ’s teaching in this way. For example:

The author of your quote is a Methodist and expressing the Christian teaching that the “next age” is at Christ’s return. Not in a “millennium” as Mormons teach.

Anyway, for Catholics marriage is a sacrament, and all graces of the sacraments will be fulfilled in heaven. Including marriage. There is a difference to Catholics between being abrogated and being fulfilled. For example, Jesus did not abrogate the Law, He fulfilled it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I used to think that but now the LDS have explained their perspective it makes sense also.

He actually says:

30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

In other words (from an LDS perspective) marriages arent performed in Heaven. It doesnt say (to an LDS) that marriages in this life (or which occur in their Spirit World) will not be eternal. Basically people have until the resurrection to get married (and sealed) after that no marriages are performed.

Yes, another innovation that requires filtering the teachings of Jesus in the NT through Mormon “scripture”.

 

[eddie_too]

in matthew, Jesus was responding to a trick question from the pharisees about a woman who was lawfully married to seven different men. His response was to make the question nonsensical because the woman would not be married to any of the seven in heaven. i also agree with horton’s point about the Lord’s answer being a refutation of the sadducees’ belief that there was no life after physical death.

also, relative to these LDS teachings on marriage. Jesus said that some people live chaste, unmarried lives for the kingdom of heaven. after saying this, He added that those who could accept this state of life ought to do so. that is contrary to the LDS teaching that one must be married to go to heaven.

 

[Peter_J]

Speaking from the LDS perspective here, respectfully acknowledging that it differs from other perspectives—

God, being ultimately just, gives everyone every opportunity to complete every ordinance, either in this life or the next. Whether that ordinance is baptism, confirmation, ordination, marriage, etc. Everyone gets every opportunity, else God would be unjust. This is basic theology.

Clarification here: by “in the next life” I am not talking about in Heaven. Rather, I am talking about the time between after death, through the Millennium, until the Final Judgement. During this time a person’s spirit still lives and they have the ability to make choices. They are not exposed to the fullness of God’s glory/wonder/knowledge until after the Final Judgement. And why would someone in such a state refuse God? The same reasons they do in this life.

Hi Jane. As a member of a Non-Mormon Religion who will probably never be an expert on Mormonism, would it make sense for me to understand this in terms of the RC idea of Purgatory?

 

[jane_doe]

Hi Jane. As a member of a Non-Mormon Religion who will probably never be an expert on Mormonism, would it make sense for me to understand this in terms of the RC idea of Purgatory?

There are some similarities, but a lot of differences.

(To make sure I answer this optimally, I’ll recap the limited understanding I have of RC’s theology on Purgatory. Please correct me in whatever I get wrong)— A believer must be full sanctified before entering Heaven. As vast majority of people are not fully sanctified before death, they continue this sanctification process after death in Purgatory. After a certain amount of time, the sanctification process is complete and that person individually enters Heaven. This time period may be speed up by living people here. Catholics are amillennial, so that doesn’t factor in. Non-believer’s post mortal fate is… straight to Hell? Limbo? (I don’t really know). I’m also not sure where resurrection comes in.

I will now contrast this with the LDS Spirit Paradise/Prison theology—

Catholic: Believers go to Purgatory
LDS: Un-believers/un-baptised go to Spirit Prison. Believers go to Spirit Paradise (which I didn’t talk about before).

Catholic: A believer must be full sanctified before entering Heaven. As vast majority of people are not fully sanctified before death, they continue this sanctification process after death in Purgatory.
LDS: A believer in Spirit Paradise who already had their ordinances performed (baptism, confirmation, etc) is simply awaiting Christ. A un-believer in Spirit Prison is torment by their sins in what feels like forever. This un-believer may accept Christ and have their sins forgiven, but still needs to await to have their ordinances done via proxy. Likewise, people who believed in this life but did not have their ordinances done must await to have them completed.

Catholic: After a certain amount of time, the sanctification process is complete and that person individually enters Heaven.
LDS: A person may move from Spirit Prison to Spirit Paradise, but no one goes to Heaven yet (that’s after resurrection and the millennium).

Catholic: This time period may be speed up by living people here.
LDS: Living people on this Earth are tasked with proxy performing ordinances for our dead, which they may then accept.

 

[Horton]

There are some similarities, but a lot of differences.

(To make sure I answer this optimally, I’ll recap the limited understanding I have of RC’s theology on Purgatory. Please correct me in whatever I get wrong)— A believer must be full sanctified before entering Heaven. As vast majority of people are not fully sanctified before death, they continue this sanctification process after death in Purgatory. After a certain amount of time, the sanctification process is complete and that person individually enters Heaven. This time period may be speed up by living people here. Catholics are amillennial, so that doesn’t factor in. Non-believer’s post mortal fate is… straight to Hell? Limbo? (I don’t really know). I’m also not sure where resurrection comes in.

When Jesus comes again at an unknowable time our earthy bodies will be resurrected. I don’t think many well formed Catholics will say non-believers go straight to hell. As we believe all Christianity is at least partly joined in the body of Christ, we trust in the mercy of God. We are okay with the idea of saying we just don’t know what happens at that time.

I will now contrast this with the LDS Spirit Paradise/Prison theology—

Catholic: Believers go to Purgatory
LDS: Un-believers/un-baptised go to Spirit Prison. Believers go to Spirit Paradise (which I didn’t talk about before).

Catholic: We are not sure who all goes to Purgatory.

Catholic: A believer must be full sanctified before entering Heaven. As vast majority of people are not fully sanctified before death, they continue this sanctification process after death in Purgatory.
LDS: A believer in Spirit Paradise who already had their ordinances performed (baptism, confirmation, etc) is simply awaiting Christ. A un-believer in Spirit Prison is torment by their sins in what feels like forever. This un-believer may accept Christ and have their sins forgiven, but still needs to await to have their ordinances done via proxy. Likewise, people who believed in this life but did not have their ordinances done must await to have them completed.

It’s not a matter of sanctification as much as purification. As God is perfect, we must also be perfect to be before Him. That purification process takes place in purgatory. We are fallen humans and no amount of Sacraments will change our fallen nature. It’s helps but does not completely do the job. This is where our free will gets in the way. I could go to Reconciliation, Holy Communion, and get an Anointing of the Sick, leave the church and get impatient trying to get out of the parking lot. Those Sacraments are still doing good for me but because I have a fallen nature, I mess it up.

As we are alone responsible for our Sacraments, no one can do them in our place. We also don’t a certain number of Sacraments done in order to go to heaven. We have seven Sacraments but a very large percentage of Catholics will only receive six. Holy Orders are reserved for priests and of course most often priests don’t get married.

Catholic: After a certain amount of time, the sanctification process is complete and that person individually enters Heaven.
LDS: A person may move from Spirit Prison to Spirit Paradise, but no one goes to Heaven yet (that’s after resurrection and the millennium).

The amount of time in purgatory is unknown by anyone but God. There is no human who can say how much time any person will have to stay there. The only human we know who did not go to purgatory is the Blessed Virgin. She alone was assumed into heaven. Once we are purified, yes we do go to heaven.

Catholic: This time period may be speed up by living people here.
LDS: Living people on this Earth are tasked with proxy performing ordinances for our dead, which they may then accept.

We can pray for souls in purgatory but we can’t say those prayers reduce the amount of purification needed. I personally don’t believe purgatory is a place of time & space. It’s is a time for us to be out of our earthly existence so we can focus solely on gaining perfection, repenting of sins still on our soles, giving up earthy attachments to people, places, and things. Finally becoming what God created us to be.

As I said before Sacraments can not be done by proxy and can’t be done after death. There is no need for the dead to be given Sacraments in any case. Once a soul is given over to God we pretty much figure He’s got this.

So the LDS believe no one is in heaven (or celestial layers) yet? So who is making all these spirit babies now?

 

[gazelam]

The case put forward by the Sadducees is particularly extreme. Not only had six brothers attempted and failed to impregnate the woman in question, but she had also outlived them all and was single when she died. It is perhaps this last fact which prompts the question: Whose spouse will she be in the resurrection?..Jesus stresses that in the age to come people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Notice what Jesus does not say. He does not say there will be no marriage in the age to come. The use of the terms “γαμουσιν” (gamousin) and “γαμιζονται” (gamizontai) is important, for these terms refer to the gender-specific roles played in early Jewish society by the man and the woman in the process of getting married. The men, being the initiators of the process in such a strongly patriarchal culture, “marry,” while the women are “given in marriage” by their father or another older family member. Thus Mark has Jesus saying that no new marriages will be initiated in the eschatological [resurrection] state. This is surely not the same as claiming that all existing marriages will disappear in the eschatological state.” (Ben Witherington III, The Gospel of Mark: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary, p. 328, italics added)

Excellent quote. Thanks!!

 

[Truth_Faith13]

There are some similarities, but a lot of differences.

(To make sure I answer this optimally, I’ll recap the limited understanding I have of RC’s theology on Purgatory. Please correct me in whatever I get wrong)— A believer must be full sanctified before entering Heaven. As vast majority of people are not fully sanctified before death, they continue this sanctification process after death in Purgatory. After a certain amount of time, the sanctification process is complete and that person individually enters Heaven. This time period may be speed up by living people here. Catholics are amillennial, so that doesn’t factor in. Non-believer’s post mortal fate is… straight to Hell? Limbo? (I don’t really know). I’m also not sure where resurrection comes in.

I will now contrast this with the LDS Spirit Paradise/Prison theology—

Catholic: Believers go to Purgatory
LDS: Un-believers/un-baptised go to Spirit Prison. Believers go to Spirit Paradise (which I didn’t talk about before).

Catholic: A believer must be full sanctified before entering Heaven. As vast majority of people are not fully sanctified before death, they continue this sanctification process after death in Purgatory.
LDS: A believer in Spirit Paradise who already had their ordinances performed (baptism, confirmation, etc) is simply awaiting Christ. A un-believer in Spirit Prison is torment by their sins in what feels like forever. This un-believer may accept Christ and have their sins forgiven, but still needs to await to have their ordinances done via proxy. Likewise, people who believed in this life but did not have their ordinances done must await to have them completed.

Catholic: After a certain amount of time, the sanctification process is complete and that person individually enters Heaven.
LDS: A person may move from Spirit Prison to Spirit Paradise, but no one goes to Heaven yet (that’s after resurrection and the millennium).

Catholic: This time period may be speed up by living people here.
LDS: Living people on this Earth are tasked with proxy performing ordinances for our dead, which they may then accept.

Jane, why does DC 132 talk about Abraham being exalted when judgement hasn’t happened yet? And everyone should be in spirit prison or spirit paradise?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Would a catholic and LDS explain their views on the millenium please? Im confused!