LDS Marriage

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Truth_Faith13 said:
Would a catholic and LDS explain their views on the millenium please? Im confused!
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Catholics don’t believe in a millennium. We know Jesus Christ is coming again. We believe at that time, which is unknowable, our earthly bodies will be resurrected. We are given this life time to become holy. We will go to purgatory to be purified and then go on to heaven. There is no waiting period or millennium.
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
Would a catholic and LDS explain their views on the millenium please? Im confused!
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It comes down to an interpretation of Revelations. Mormonism, having one of its roots in Protestantism, carry forwards from that root point, with their additional innovations. They are very similar to Evangelicals, minus the rapture. Then add in Mormon beliefs about missionary work continuing for a thousand years, and that’s the Mormon form of millennialism. These beliefs, both Mormon and Evangelical, hold that at Christ’s return, He will start a reign that will last a literal 1000 years, at which point there will be a final war with Satan where Satan will be conquered.

Catholic belief is, 1000 years is symbolic, found throughout the Bible, and it is used to represent a long period of time. Catholics believe Satan was conquered by Christ’s death and resurrection. That Jesus’ reign of a long time began at his Ascension, and that He still reigns now, His Kingdom exists on Earth, now, and that His reign will never end. We are called to live as we believe. That is, that Satan is conquered by our King. This is one aspect of the Good News itself. As St. Paul puts it, we are children of the light and are called to walk in the light. At Christ’s return His Kingdom will be fulfilled in it entirety.
 
gazelam said:
Easiest for me to share some links…

eom.byu.edu/index.php/Millennium
lds.org/topics/millennium?lang=eng
lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-45-the-millennium?lang=eng

I hope this helps…
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The idea of a “millennium” is just strange. There is no biblical support for this theory. The biblical verses used are taken completely out of context and do not mean what these LDS links claim they mean. There are several significant numbers in the bible, 3, 7, and 40 come to mind but I don’t recall the number 1000 being one of them. I’ve never heard it spoken about in a homily nor any number of classes, including RCIA every year since my conversion.

Satan was defeated during the Passion, Crucifixion, Resurrection and does not need to be defeated again.

In the second link the writer quotes Isaiah again but uses the verse extremely out of context. Isaiah is in the Old Testament and the prophecies stated there are about the first coming of Christ, not the second one. As Jesus Christ had not been born in the time of Isaiah he would have not been able to prophecy another coming of Christ.

True_Faith13 - This is why it is critical to have a bible near when the missionary sisters are visiting and teaching you. I would strongly suggest you get a bible app on your phone or tablet if you don’t have a *non KJV at home. You can get the NIV Bible app which seems to have good reviews if you want a neutral reference until you figure out which you believe to be true. In the app links I gave you in another post there are bibles included.

*I don’t like the language used in the KJV as it is old fashion and not close to the way we speak now.
 
RC’s believe that at the death of one spouse a marriage no longer exists between the two spouses.

obviously, the LDS believe something else. i am not sure what that might be but it is not what catholics believe.

out of curiosity, does the LDS teach that a person can only have a covenant marriage once?

if that is true, is re-marriage after the death of a spouse acceptable in the LDS?

and, how can a man and a woman who each had a covenant marriage where their partner died marry each other according to the LDS?

and, what is the relationship and difference between a covenant marriage and a non-covenant marriage in the LDS, if non-covenant marriages are permitted in the LDS?
 
eddie_too said:
out of curiosity, does the LDS teach that a person can only have a covenant marriage once?

if that is true, is re-marriage after the death of a spouse acceptable in the LDS?
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A widow / widower may remarry. A man may be sealed (married for time and all eternity) to multiple women. A women may only be sealed to one man. Civil marriages (till death do you part) has no barring.

This can play out in a variety of ways. One example from my own family is my grandmother died relatively young (in her ~60’s). She and my grandfather were/are sealed. Later, my grandfather then choose to remarry a widow, but just as a civil marriage (till death due us part) for company in their elder years. Both my grandfather and the widow refer to their original spouse as “my eternal companion”, intend to be buried with them, and raise again with them.
eddie_too said:
and, how can a man and a woman who each had a covenant marriage where their partner died marry each other according to the LDS?
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A man can simply be sealed twice (were are VERY uncertain how the logistics of this works out in the eternities). A woman can choose to have her old sealing canceled, such as example when there has been an abusive divorce.
eddie_too said:
and, what is the relationship and difference between a covenant marriage and a non-covenant marriage in the LDS, if non-covenant marriages are permitted in the LDS?
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A civil marriage is simply a civil legal marriage, “till death do we part”. They are presided by local legality. They are acknowledged by LDS, and two LDS people may choose to only be civilly married (such as my grandpa and the widow).

A sealing is a covenant marriage under God’s power, husband and wife bound for the eternities*. A couple must be civilly married in order to be sealed. Both participants (a male and a female) must be faithful LDS.
  • This is pending their keeping of their covenants with God.
 
jane_doe said:
A widow / widower may remarry. A man may be sealed (married for time and all eternity) to multiple women. A women may only be sealed to one man.

A man can simply be sealed twice (were are VERY uncertain how the logistics of this works out in the eternities).
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This is why I find the whole sealing teaching of the LDS church repulsive.
 
Horton said:
The idea of a “millennium” is just strange. There is no biblical support for this theory. The biblical verses used are taken completely out of context and do not mean what these LDS links claim they mean. There are several significant numbers in the bible, 3, 7, and 40 come to mind but I don’t recall the number 1000 being one of them. I’ve never heard it spoken about in a homily nor any number of classes, including RCIA every year since my conversion.

Satan was defeated during the Passion, Crucifixion, Resurrection and does not need to be defeated again.

In the second link the writer quotes Isaiah again but uses the verse extremely out of context. Isaiah is in the Old Testament and the prophecies stated there are about the first coming of Christ, not the second one. As Jesus Christ had not been born in the time of Isaiah he would have not been able to prophecy another coming of Christ.

True_Faith13 - This is why it is critical to have a bible near when the missionary sisters are visiting and teaching you. I would strongly suggest you get a bible app on your phone or tablet if you don’t have a *non KJV at home. You can get the NIV Bible app which seems to have good reviews if you want a neutral reference until you figure out which you believe to be true. In the app links I gave you in another post there are bibles included.

*I don’t like the language used in the KJV as it is old fashion and not close to the way we speak now.
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I think my bibles are NIV and NLT. I do have the KJV but they are special bibles given to me for my christening and are keepsakes only. The Sisters certainly aren’t keen on non KJV bibles, they have read through mine and find them quite funny how they are worded.

How do Catholics view Revelation 20 then? Is it symbolic?
 
zaffiroborant said:
This is why I find the whole sealing teaching of the LDS church repulsive.
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May I ask why? Yes on the surface it’s polygamy BUT what about a Catholic who has been married more than once? I know they don’t believe in marriage in heaven etc but you must believe you will be with your loved ones?

My first thought when I found this out, was well that’s not fair, the women should be allowed to be sealed to multiple men but then polyandry has never been biblical where as polygamy is in the Bible.

(I should point out I have an issue with it as well and have an issue with polygamy but I’m just trying to see if there are similarities it’s just worded differently ie married or not in heaven with both faiths you are going to have people who have been married more than once in this life unless Catholics don’t believe you will be with your family?)
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
May I ask why? Yes on the surface it’s polygamy BUT what about a Catholic who has been married more than once? I know they don’t believe in marriage in heaven etc but you must believe you will be with your loved ones?

**My first thought when I found this out, was well that’s not fair, the women should be allowed to be sealed to multiple men but then polyandry has never been biblical where as polygamy is in the Bible. **

(I should point out I have an issue with it as well and have an issue with polygamy but I’m just trying to see if there are similarities it’s just worded differently ie married or not in heaven with both faiths you are going to have people who have been married more than once in this life unless Catholics don’t believe you will be with your family?)
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Families are sealed together and this leads to a mess in anything other than a single marriage for a woman. Half siblings must be sealed to only one of the mother’s husbands so you wind up with children sealed to men other than their fathers and fathers who are left out in the cold as their children are sealed to other men. So it is unfair to both men and women.

There are a lot of things that are “biblical” that I will never be okay with, slavery for instance, so the argument that polygamy is biblical holds little sway for me.

And yes Catholics believe you will be with your loved ones in heaven, family, friends, mentors, all those you have loved. Not just walled off families or pairings of couples (as some LDS have said in the face of the unwieldy concept of sealed families carried out for generations) us and them, everyone together, all relationships carried on with their full potential realized.
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
I think my bibles are NIV and NLT. I do have the KJV but they are special bibles given to me for my christening and are keepsakes only. The Sisters certainly aren’t keen on non KJV bibles, they have read through mine and find them quite funny how they are worded.

How do Catholics view Revelation 20 then? Is it symbolic?
Click to expand...
I have a KJV too that I’ve had since I was a child. I don’t use it, it sits in the bottom of a drawer. I’m glad to know you do have others. The missionary sisters are not going to like them as they may have a different notes than the KJV.

This is the note from the NAB on the USCCB site.

** [20:1–6] Like the other numerical values in this book (Revelation), the thousand years are not to be taken literally; they symbolize the long period of time between the chaining up of Satan (a symbol for Christ’s resurrection-victory over death and the forces of evil) and the end of the world. During this time God’s people share in the glorious reign of God that is present to them by virtue of their baptismal victory over death and sin;*

There is a good book about the book of Revelation called The Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn. He breaks down the whole book and shows how it represents the Mass. This is the description of the book. Here the link on Amazon amazon.com/dp/B000FBFMZC/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 If I still had my copy I would mail it to you but I gave it away to someone else. A women’s group I belonged to read it together and discussed it. You may be able to get a used book on Amazon a bit less expensive than the kindle price. You may be able to find it a local book store where you live. At least read the reviews on Amazon.

Of all things Catholic, there is nothing that is so familiar as the Mass. With its unchanging prayers, the Mass fits Catholics like their favorite clothes. Yet most Catholics sitting in the pews on Sundays fail to see the powerful supernatural drama that enfolds them. Pope John Paul II described the Mass as “Heaven on Earth,” explaining that what “we celebrate on Earth is a mysterious participation in the heavenly liturgy.”
The Lamb’s Supper reveals a long-lost secret of the Church: The early Christians’ key to understanding the mysteries of the Mass was the New Testament Book of Revelation. With its bizarre imagery, its mystic visions of heaven, and its end-of-time prophecies, Revelation mirrors the sacrifice and celebration of the Eucharist.
 
jane_doe said:
There are some similarities, but a lot of differences.

(To make sure I answer this optimally, I’ll recap the limited understanding I have of RC’s theology on Purgatory. Please correct me in whatever I get wrong)— A believer must be full sanctified before entering Heaven. As vast majority of people are not fully sanctified before death, they continue this sanctification process after death in Purgatory. After a certain amount of time, the sanctification process is complete and that person individually enters Heaven. This time period may be speed up by living people here. Catholics are amillennial, so that doesn’t factor in. Non-believer’s post mortal fate is… straight to Hell? Limbo? (I don’t really know). I’m also not sure where resurrection comes in.

I will now contrast this with the LDS Spirit Paradise/Prison theology—

Catholic: Believers go to Purgatory
LDS: Un-believers/un-baptised go to Spirit Prison. Believers go to Spirit Paradise (which I didn’t talk about before).

Catholic: A believer must be full sanctified before entering Heaven. As vast majority of people are not fully sanctified before death, they continue this sanctification process after death in Purgatory.
LDS: A believer in Spirit Paradise who already had their ordinances performed (baptism, confirmation, etc) is simply awaiting Christ. A un-believer in Spirit Prison is torment by their sins in what feels like forever. This un-believer may accept Christ and have their sins forgiven, but still needs to await to have their ordinances done via proxy. Likewise, people who believed in this life but did not have their ordinances done must await to have them completed.

Catholic: After a certain amount of time, the sanctification process is complete and that person individually enters Heaven.
LDS: A person may move from Spirit Prison to Spirit Paradise, but no one goes to Heaven yet (that’s after resurrection and the millennium).

Catholic: This time period may be speed up by living people here.
LDS: Living people on this Earth are tasked with proxy performing ordinances for our dead, which they may then accept.
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Thanks. 🙂
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
May I ask why? Yes on the surface it’s polygamy BUT what about a Catholic who has been married more than once? I know they don’t believe in marriage in heaven etc but you must believe you will be with your loved ones?

My first thought when I found this out, was well that’s not fair, the women should be allowed to be sealed to multiple men but then polyandry has never been biblical where as polygamy is in the Bible.

(I should point out I have an issue with it as well and have an issue with polygamy but I’m just trying to see if there are similarities it’s just worded differently ie married or not in heaven with both faiths you are going to have people who have been married more than once in this life unless Catholics don’t believe you will be with your family?)
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For Catholics marriage ends at death. Yes I believe we will share heaven with the people we love but better than that we will be in the presence of God, we will be with our Lord. I love my family as much as most of us love our families but God comes first.

The whole idea of polygamy is one of the places where the LDS theory falls apart. Think about a scenario like this: A man & woman are sealed in the temple, the have 3 sons and 3 daughters who are sealed to them. Those children grow up and marry, they are sealed to their spouses. They all have sons & daughters sealed to them. Those descendants grow up and marry, sealed to their spouses. They have sons & daughters sealed to them. They grow up and marry being sealed to their spouses. And on & on. The question then becomes who is sealed to who? What happens if anyone in the chain rejects the LDS and becomes Catholic? What happens if anyone in the chain rejects the LDS and becomes an atheist?

The concept of marriage for all time & eternity is not a sustainable theory. It is a theory Joseph Smith used to lure people into his “church” as it sounded like a lovely idea to some. He just didn’t think it through to it’s natural conclusion of total chaos.
 
Horton said:
There is a good book about the book of Revelation called The Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn. He breaks down the whole book and shows how it represents the Mass. This is the description of the book. Here the link on Amazon amazon.com/dp/B000FBFMZC/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 If I still had my copy I would mail it to you but I gave it away to someone else. A women’s group I belonged to read it together and discussed it. You may be able to get a used book on Amazon a bit less expensive than the kindle price. You may be able to find it a local book store where you live. At least read the reviews on Amazon.

Of all things Catholic, there is nothing that is so familiar as the Mass. With its unchanging prayers, the Mass fits Catholics like their favorite clothes. Yet most Catholics sitting in the pews on Sundays fail to see the powerful supernatural drama that enfolds them. Pope John Paul II described the Mass as “Heaven on Earth,” explaining that what “we celebrate on Earth is a mysterious participation in the heavenly liturgy.”
The Lamb’s Supper reveals a long-lost secret of the Church: The early Christians’ key to understanding the mysteries of the Mass was the New Testament Book of Revelation. With its bizarre imagery, its mystic visions of heaven, and its end-of-time prophecies, Revelation mirrors the sacrifice and celebration of the Eucharist.
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Here is a link to a video clip where Hahn discusses the Book of Revelation, and answers a caller’s question about what Evangelicals, Mormons, etc., see as the millennium

catholic.com/video/what-do-catholics-believe-about-the-millennium
 
Horton said:
The concept of marriage for all time & eternity is not a sustainable theory. It is a theory Joseph Smith used to lure people into his “church” as it sounded like a lovely idea to some. He just didn’t think it through to it’s natural conclusion of total chaos.
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When I left Mormonism, I found this to be so true when I sat back and took the time to think, really think, through many of the LDS teachings.

It fell like a house of cards.

The concept of being “sealed for all time and eternity” is a very romantic idea for some, and very attractive.

But it simply isn’t necessary. Love is what binds up to God and others. Not a ritual that happens in the Mormon temples. That was the card that made all the other cards fall down for me. When I realized that Mormon temples are simply not necessary.

And that Mormon temples don’t resemble what the real temple in Jerusalem really did and was about. Want to know what happened in the real temple? Read the later books of the Pentateuch.

There is nothing secret about what happened in the Jewish temple or what temple worship was about. It’s all laid out in the Bible
 
Horton said:
I have a KJV too that I’ve had since I was a child. I don’t use it, it sits in the bottom of a drawer. I’m glad to know you do have others. The missionary sisters are not going to like them as they may have a different notes than the KJV.

This is the note from the NAB on the USCCB site.

** [20:1–6] Like the other numerical values in this book* (Revelation), the thousand years are not to be taken literally; they symbolize the long period of time between the chaining up of Satan (a symbol for Christ’s resurrection-victory over death and the forces of evil) and the end of the world. During this time God’s people share in the glorious reign of God that is present to them by virtue of their baptismal victory over death and sin;

There is a good book about the book of Revelation called The Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn. He breaks down the whole book and shows how it represents the Mass. This is the description of the book. Here the link on Amazon amazon.com/dp/B000FBFMZC/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 If I still had my copy I would mail it to you but I gave it away to someone else. A women’s group I belonged to read it together and discussed it. You may be able to get a used book on Amazon a bit less expensive than the kindle price. You may be able to find it a local book store where you live. At least read the reviews on Amazon.

Of all things Catholic, there is nothing that is so familiar as the Mass. With its unchanging prayers, the Mass fits Catholics like their favorite clothes. Yet most Catholics sitting in the pews on Sundays fail to see the powerful supernatural drama that enfolds them. Pope John Paul II described the Mass as “Heaven on Earth,” explaining that what “we celebrate on Earth is a mysterious participation in the heavenly liturgy.”
The Lamb’s Supper reveals a long-lost secret of the Church: The early Christians’ key to understanding the mysteries of the Mass was the New Testament Book of Revelation. With its bizarre imagery, its mystic visions of heaven, and its end-of-time prophecies, Revelation mirrors the sacrifice and celebration of the Eucharist.
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I think I may have that book somewhere! If not, I’ll def look it up. Thanks for the recommendation.
 
jane_doe said:
A widow / widower may remarry. A man may be sealed (married for time and all eternity) to multiple women. A women may only be sealed to one man. Civil marriages (till death do you part) has no barring.

This can play out in a variety of ways. One example from my own family is my grandmother died relatively young (in her ~60’s). She and my grandfather were/are sealed. Later, my grandfather then choose to remarry a widow, but just as a civil marriage (till death due us part) for company in their elder years. Both my grandfather and the widow refer to their original spouse as “my eternal companion”, intend to be buried with them, and raise again with them.

A man can simply be sealed twice (were are VERY uncertain how the logistics of this works out in the eternities). A woman can choose to have her old sealing canceled, such as example when there has been an abusive divorce.

A civil marriage is simply a civil legal marriage, “till death do we part”. They are presided by local legality. They are acknowledged by LDS, and two LDS people may choose to only be civilly married (such as my grandpa and the widow).

A sealing is a covenant marriage under God’s power, husband and wife bound for the eternities*. A couple must be civilly married in order to be sealed. Both participants (a male and a female) must be faithful LDS.
  • This is pending their keeping of their covenants with God.
Click to expand...
What a nightmare. Hard to believe Mormons can’t see the absurdity of this whole mess.
 
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