LDS Marriage

[Horton]

I dont think Jane is dodging questions here. You guys are committed Catholics and are convinced the LDS Church isnt true (nothing wrong with that) but it will mean there is a difference between the intent of asking the questions. (Im aware that sounds very mormon!)

My point is I think Jane would welcome any question asked in honesty ie you are generally interested in what she believes, why she believes it etc. Not that you necessarily want to convert but just want to learn about another belief. Like when you Horton were talking with your friend.

However questions that are thrown at another poster to prove them wrong with no real intent to learn are different and I can understand why any poster wouldnt answer unless they like debate. I dont like debate though so it may just be me!

I understand what you are saying here. Many of us are curious why any LDS would believe some of the more difficult teachings. Some of our posters here were LDS previously and left because of these difficult teachings.

I feel some of this comes from the fact that the Catholic Church doesn’t have a snow white past either. There were dark times in the Church and some very not Christian like leaders. If I was in a discussion with others and was being questioned on those dark times I would do my best to find the answers. I wouldn’t deny it or deflect it. I wouldn’t come back with a personal attack.

Unfortunately this is a typical response of those LDS who take offence at difficult questions. I’ve ran into this in real life also. I do know the LDS isn’t a true church. I do know Joseph Smith was no more a prophet than I am. I do know the BoM is a work of fiction and not the word of God. But I would really like to hear why believers of the LDS do believe it and their answers to the difficult questions asked earlier.

As far as jane-doe, this is a typical response from her also. On so many threads she will go on the attack when questioned about the more difficult aspects of the LDS. I’ve asked the question on the whole eternal marriage issue more than once and I still don’t have an answer that helps me understand why they believe it.

There are difficult teachings in the Catholic Church such as the Eucharist. Part of it we take on faith but we also have biblical support for the Real Presence and support of Tradition in the writings of the Early Church Fathers. It is a truth that has remained the same since the last supper.

Do you understand what I’m trying to get at here? It easy to answer questions on a Mormon forum like the other one you’re on when you have only LDS there.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I dont think Jane is dodging questions here. You guys are committed Catholics and are convinced the LDS Church isnt true (nothing wrong with that) but it will mean there is a difference between the intent of asking the questions. (Im aware that sounds very mormon!)

My point is I think Jane would welcome any question asked in honesty ie you are generally interested in what she believes, why she believes it etc. Not that you necessarily want to convert but just want to learn about another belief. Like when you Horton were talking with your friend.

However questions that are thrown at another poster to prove them wrong with no real intent to learn are different and I can understand why any poster wouldnt answer unless they like debate. I dont like debate though so it may just be me!

I think it is uncharitable to assume the intent of a poster’s question is an attack.

I also think it is uncharitable to assume the intent of a poster’s silence is that they are hiding something.

Mormon/Catholic dialogue can be difficult and at times frustrating. Most of the time I don’t see that as the fault of any particular person who is posting. There have been some colorful exceptions.

Jane doe is actually one of the more charitable Mormon posters that have been here. I don’t see any reason that she is required to answer every post about Mormonism. I understand why she might favor responding to people who might have an interest in converting.

 

[jane_doe]

Jane doe is actually one of the more charitable Mormon posters that have been here. I don’t see any reason that she is required to answer every post about Mormonism.

Thank you RebeccaJ. I try (imperfectly, of course). It is an ongoing effort. I also appreciate your fair and charitable presence here.

I understand why she might favor responding to people who might have an interest in converting.

Not really. I’m more interested in talking with people whom are interested in charitable respectful conversation with 2-way listening. I have little interest in dialogue with people whom are only interested in insulting other people for whatever reason. I know I’m not the only person on this board who feels the same way, and for the most part I have a very enjoyable time here.

 

[jane_doe]

I dont think Jane is dodging questions here. You guys are committed Catholics and are convinced the LDS Church isnt true (nothing wrong with that) but it will mean there is a difference between the intent of asking the questions. (Im aware that sounds very mormon!)

My point is I think Jane would welcome any question asked in honesty ie you are generally interested in what she believes, why she believes it etc. Not that you necessarily want to convert but just want to learn about another belief. Like when you Horton were talking with your friend.

However questions that are thrown at another poster to prove them wrong with no real intent to learn are different and I can understand why any poster wouldnt answer unless they like debate. I dont like debate though so it may just be me!

Amen to that!

 

[Peter_J]

I’m more interested in talking with people whom are interested in charitable respectful conversation with 2-way listening.

Me too.

Oddly, dispite what I said about how much I like the Ignore List feature, I have very few Protestants or Mormons on it.

 

[jane_doe]

Me too.

Yeah!

 

[kozlosap]

I dont think Jane is dodging questions here. You guys are committed Catholics and are convinced the LDS Church isnt true (nothing wrong with that) but it will mean there is a difference between the intent of asking the questions. (Im aware that sounds very mormon!)

My point is I think Jane would welcome any question asked in honesty ie you are generally interested in what she believes, why she believes it etc. Not that you necessarily want to convert but just want to learn about another belief. Like when you Horton were talking with your friend.

However questions that are thrown at another poster to prove them wrong with no real intent to learn are different and I can understand why any poster wouldnt answer unless they like debate. I dont like debate though so it may just be me!

Your answers to those here who are being blatantly disrepectful to Jane aa are very welcome! I’ve always wondered about two things concerning LDS dogma:

Why aren’t non LDS allowed in LDS temples when everyone is welcome in Catholic Cathedrals, even the Sistine Ccapel?

If a Mormon does not pay the mandated ten percent tithe, would they ever receive a Tempe Recommend, even if they are charitable with their ttme and personal gifts?

Perhaps you could ask the missionaries you ar meeing with. Have a happy Advent!

 

[jane_doe]

Why aren’t non LDS allowed in LDS temples when everyone is welcome in Catholic Cathedrals, even the Sistine Ccapel?

The purpose of a Catholic Cathedral is to host Mass, correct?
If so, then they would be equivalent to LDS chapels, where we host weekly services and partake of the Lord’s Supper. Everyone is welcome.

LDS temples are NOT places where weekly services happen (they’re actually closed on Sundays). They are NOT places to go for casual meditation or study. Rather, they exist solely for the purposes of participating in the later sacraments (to use Catholic terminology). As a non-LDS person obviously is not going to participate in LDS sacraments, they have no reason to attend.

Still, if you would like to tour a temple before it is set aside for these sacraments, you are welcome to. This past year we had such open houses for temples in Phily, Connecticut, Japan, Wyoming, Utah, and Mexico. Even after dedication, many temple have Visitors Centers to answer questions and give information. Even if the temple near you doesn’t, someone can still help you out.

If a Mormon does not pay the mandated ten percent tithe, would they ever receive a Tempe Recommend

Again, the purpose of going to the temple is to participate in the later sacraments. These are covenants (two way vows) we make with God. Committing to pay tithing is part of the first covenant we make with God (baptism). If a person is unwilling to honor this first covenant, asking them to make later covenants is wrong.

even if they are charitable with their ttme and personal gifts?

I’m not sure what you’re getting at with this part.

Have a happy Advent!

To you as well! It’s my favorite time of year!

 

[Peter_J]

Why aren’t non LDS allowed in LDS temples when everyone is welcome in Catholic Cathedrals, even the Sistine Chapel?

I’m a little confused by this question. Mormons don’t model themselves after RCism – or at least, if they do, that is completely new to me.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I understand what you are saying here. Many of us are curious why any LDS would believe some of the more difficult teachings. Some of our posters here were LDS previously and left because of these difficult teachings.

I feel some of this comes from the fact that the Catholic Church doesn’t have a snow white past either. There were dark times in the Church and some very not Christian like leaders. If I was in a discussion with others and was being questioned on those dark times I would do my best to find the answers. I wouldn’t deny it or deflect it. I wouldn’t come back with a personal attack.

Unfortunately this is a typical response of those LDS who take offence at difficult questions. I’ve ran into this in real life also. I do know the LDS isn’t a true church. I do know Joseph Smith was no more a prophet than I am. I do know the BoM is a work of fiction and not the word of God. But I would really like to hear why believers of the LDS do believe it and their answers to the difficult questions asked earlier.

As far as jane-doe, this is a typical response from her also. On so many threads she will go on the attack when questioned about the more difficult aspects of the LDS. I’ve asked the question on the whole eternal marriage issue more than once and I still don’t have an answer that helps me understand why they believe it.

There are difficult teachings in the Catholic Church such as the Eucharist. Part of it we take on faith but we also have biblical support for the Real Presence and support of Tradition in the writings of the Early Church Fathers. It is a truth that has remained the same since the last supper.

Do you understand what I’m trying to get at here? It easy to answer questions on a Mormon forum like the other one you’re on when you have only LDS there.

Yes I understand what you are saying

What’s the bit about eternal marriage? (I probably should go read the first post of this thread again! )

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Your answers to those here who are being blatantly disrepectful to Jane aa are very welcome! I’ve always wondered about two things concerning LDS dogma:

Why aren’t non LDS allowed in LDS temples when everyone is welcome in Catholic Cathedrals, even the Sistine Ccapel?

If a Mormon does not pay the mandated ten percent tithe, would they ever receive a Tempe Recommend, even if they are charitable with their ttme and personal gifts?

Perhaps you could ask the missionaries you ar meeing with. Have a happy Advent!

Well firstly you can’t really compare Catholic Cathedrals with LDS Temples. For one they are in different belief systems, but they serve different purposes for each. It would be like asking why Catholics don’t take their shoes off/wash their feet like Muslims do (I think that’s what they do anyway) in their mosques.

Mormonism is esoteric in nature (I’m not sure I agree with this), an analogy I have heard is you wouldn’t feed a newborn a steak, you first give them milk, then gradually wean them and then when they are ready and have teeth can have the steak. Many LDS can’t enter the temples, so they aren’t going to let non-LDS in since non-LDS haven’t even started on milk yet. LDS Temples are covenants they make with God to work towards their exaltation. Salvation can be attained without going to the Temple. As Jane said, their version of the Eucharist (the Sacrament) happens in the chapels on a Sunday.

No they would not receive a temple recommend if they don’t pay tithe. There is a list of questions asked in their interview if you google for it. You have to promise to pay tithe to be baptised into the Church, it’s one of the very first steps on the LDS journey.

 

[Horton]

Yes I understand what you are saying

What’s the bit about eternal marriage? (I probably should go read the first post of this thread again! )

You’ll have to just look for it. I’m sick of being beat up here.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Salvation can be attained without going to the Temple.

Not the highest level.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Not really. I’m more interested in talking with people whom are interested in charitable respectful conversation with 2-way listening. I have little interest in dialogue with people whom are only interested in insulting other people for whatever reason. I know I’m not the only person on this board who feels the same way, and for the most part I have a very enjoyable time here.

Why turn confrontational?

 

[RebeccaJ]

The purpose of a Catholic Cathedral is to host Mass, correct?
If so, then they would be equivalent to LDS chapels, where we host weekly services and partake of the Lord’s Supper. Everyone is welcome.

LDS temples are NOT places where weekly services happen (they’re actually closed on Sundays). They are NOT places to go for casual meditation or study. Rather, they exist solely for the purposes of participating in the later sacraments (to use Catholic terminology). As a non-LDS person obviously is not going to participate in LDS sacraments, they have no reason to attend.

Not really a comparison between a Mormon chapel and a Cathedral. Our churches are our temples. Mormons just have a habit of downplaying Mass and our churches for whatever reason. I surmise is there isn’t a full understanding of what is happening at Mass.

 

[Peter_J]

Why turn confrontational?

I think we’re getting a little off topic, but see what I posted already:

But if I may say, it is my experience that quite a lot of non-Catholic posters here are more likely to respond to posts like that.

Seriously, sometimes I feel like “What do I need to do to get y’all to pay attention to my posts? Should I start being hyper-rude or something?”

 

[superwimp]

No they would not receive a temple recommend if they don’t pay tithe. There is a list of questions asked in their interview if you google for it. You have to promise to pay tithe to be baptised into the Church, it’s one of the very first steps on the LDS journey.

Hello truth faith,

This is a little off the topic of marriage but I have to give the LDS credit that it was the importance they placed on tithing that inspired me to do my own research on tithing.  While I don't think anyone can actually keep the law of tithing as defined in the OT I have applied some of the principles of tithing to my giving.  Other than the 10% number the LDS definition appears to me to be very much lacking in any similarities to tithing as it was defined in the OT.  No where in the OT is tithing ever used for building or maintenance.  Tithing is an important teaching in Mormondom and it's very possible that some of the other groups may come closer to the actual law of tithing.  Curiously in Joseph Smith's translation of the bible we see that tithing was used to help the poor.

Genesis 14:37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;

38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.

 

[kozlosap]

Well firstly you can’t really compare Catholic Cathedrals with LDS Temples. For one they are in different belief systems, but they serve different purposes for each. It would be like asking why Catholics don’t take their shoes off/wash their feet like Muslims do (I think that’s what they do anyway) in their mosques.

Mormonism is esoteric in nature (I’m not sure I agree with this), an analogy I have heard is you wouldn’t feed a newborn a steak, you first give them milk, then gradually wean them and then when they are ready and have teeth can have the steak. Many LDS can’t enter the temples, so they aren’t going to let non-LDS in since non-LDS haven’t even started on milk yet. LDS Temples are covenants they make with God to work towards their exaltation. Salvation can be attained without going to the Temple. As Jane said, their version of the Eucharist (the Sacrament) happens in the chapels on a Sunday.

No they would not receive a temple recommend if they don’t pay tithe. There is a list of questions asked in their interview if you google for it. You have to promise to pay tithe to be baptised into the Church, it’s one of the very first steps on the LDS journey.

Thank you so much for the answers. I do look upon our cathedrals as temples! I admire the Mormon custom of Family Home Evenings. It is a practice we all could benefit from. I think that other than the temple requirements, the practice that disturbs me the most is the baptism of the dead. When Holocoust survivors had to publically call out the Mormon Church for taking lists of names from the death camps and using them in temples to baptize them, it was horrible.

 

[jane_doe]

I think that other than the temple requirements, the practice that disturbs me the most is the baptism of the dead.

I find that this topic is frequently misunderstood by non-LDS. I don’t know where your knowledge falls, but if you’d like to know more here’s a reference: lds.org/topics/baptisms-for-the-dead?lang=eng

When Holocoust survivors had to publically call out the Mormon Church for taking lists of names from the death camps and using them in temples to baptize them, it was horrible.

It is against LDS policy to submit Holocaust names, and rightly so (doing such is beyond disrespectful). Individuals who do/have submitted Holocaust names are doing so blatantly against this policy and will be/have been disciplined for such actions.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

You’ll have to just look for it. I’m sick of being beat up here.

OK I’ve had a read back through the first post, let me have a go at my understanding of LDS eternal marriage etc.

Firstly, the poster you quoted was referring to exaltation when he said “,eternal life”. Marriage is not required for Salvation but it is required for Exaltation.

Three degrees of glory are Celestial, Terrestial, Telestial, the Celestial being the highest and it is also in 3 “parts”. It’s the highest part of the celestial kingdom that requires marriage. I believe the degrees of glory comes from a Bible passage which talks about the sun, the moon and the stars (I’ll try looking it up!)

A couple may be married civilly (ie in the LDS chapels or elsewhere) and this is for time only. The marriage ends at death.

A couple who are considered worthy LDS may marry in the temple (for time and eternity)

A man may be sealed to more than one woman but a woman can’t be sealed to more than one man. So if a man’s wife does, he may remarry for time and eternity (assuming the woman he marries wasn’t sealed before although she could choose to cancel this sealing and be sealed to her second husband instead)

Currently all people who have died are in spirit prison or spirit paradise. Noone has entered heaven, that comes after final judgement. Marriage can be performed in this life or by proxy (along with baptisms, sealings, endowments etc) for the dead in Spirit prison/paradise and through the millennium but these will stop once Final Judgement is here ie no marriages are performed in Heaven.

Therefore people are given every opportunity in this life and the next to receive the ordinances they require to enter the highest degree of the highest glory (celestial kingdom). I’m not sure what the poster was talking about when he said those who don’t have a temple marriage don’t attain eternal life. I can only assume he means at final judgement those who still reject Christ, and all the ordinances needed for Exaltation, won’t receive them and therefore won’t be able to enter the highest degree of the highest glory. They still have free will in the Spirit World.

Women are not assigned men…at least I haven’t found any documented evidence for this or was ever taught it when I was LDS.

The bit I am unsure on is I believe they only seal by proxy those who were married in this life therefore I’m not sure how people who die unmarried still get tbe opportunities.

Hope that helps (and hopefully Jane will correct me if I have made mistakes!)