LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[ParkerD]

I repeat:
"Help the young men understand that Satan is a spirit son of Heavenly Father born in the morning of the premortal life. " from Aaronic Priesthood Manual (teaches adolescent males – lds.org/manual/aaronic-priest…=Lucifer+rebel

That’s a start.

Thanks, Peter John.

I hadn’t read that manual. Now that I have read that lesson, I’ll explain to my sons that some manuals include information that may include a bit of speculative misconception due to the principle of free will choice even for a lesson manual committee, and that it is best to stick with the primary doctrinal sources, which are the scriptures.

So, thanks for pointing it out so I can talk with my scripturally motivated sons about this. I think they will be able to understand the difference.

 

[rainman10]

The entire basis of Christianity is “revealed truth”, from which we derive our theology. This revelation can summed up in one person, Jesus Christ. The Mormon church has no unique claim to revelation. It does, however, have a unique claim to the absence of rational thought, so we would agree on that point.

God made us as rational beings and the truth He revealed to us does not conflict with our rational minds. When it does, we should be worried. This is very relevant to the topic of this thread. When the claim of a “Great Apostasy” is countered at every turn by a complete lack of empirical evidence, it should, at a minimum, give one pause as to the truth of the claim. If I return to my car and find a large dent in the hood and am told that it was caused by a falling tree, but there are no trees in sight, I will probably deduce that I am being told a lie. Our rational mind is a gift from God which is given to help us discern truth. When we ignore this gift in favor of believing something regardless of the evidence against it, we do ourselves and God a disfavor.

In the same way, Jesus apparently felt the need to reveal Himself through miracles that He performed, so that those who did not believe, would see that what He said was true and would follow Him. So in this sense, didn’t He appeal to the rational thought of the people?

 

[ParkerD]

With all due respect, you did not answer my question. Is God the Father the God of Israel or not? …No mention is made of …being one in purpose and will. The God revealed to us in the Scriptures is ONE God, as you have pointed out in Isaiah.

I assumed you could understand the simple concept that Jehovah was and is the God of Israel, which means God the Father is not the God of Israel or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They were speaking of Jehovah, God the Son.

Jesus, in His intercessory prayer, explains the concept of Oneness and there need be no mistake about what He is saying, though we may use different words to describe it. The best word is I suppose the word He used–He wants us to be one, and He and His Father are one.

 

[rainman10]

SteveVH,

I hadn’t thought that before the recent discussion on this thread, but it appears to me that many people don’t really believe that the Holy Spirit guides and answers prayers and hence they have to have “proof” that they think is tangible and “rational”.

I think others have enough understanding from the Bible that they do receive guidance from the Holy Spirit and don’t discount it when they do. (But even so they may be reluctant to ask questions in prayer that might lead to a change in what they do in life.)

I think this has been asked before.
The Holy Spirit is telling me to follow the Catholic Church that Jesus Christ started when He was here on earth, and promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide and protect His Church.

The Holy Spirit is telling you to follow the Mormon church that Joseph Smith started when he was told that all churches/religions are an abomination.

SO WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRIT LYING TO, YOU OR ME?? IT CAN’T OBVIOUSLY BE BOTH WAYS.

 

[Stephen168]

SO WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRIT LYING TO, YOU OR ME?? IT CAN’T OBVIOUSLY BE BOTH WAYS.

Now, we have to use reason to decide. Mormonism is unreasonable. Some don’t have a reason for why they believe it.

 

[SteveVH]

I assumed you could understand the simple concept that Jehovah was and is the God of Israel, which means God the Father is not the God of Israel or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They were speaking of Jehovah, God the Son.

Jesus, in His intercessory prayer, explains the concept of Oneness and there need be no mistake about what He is saying, though we may use different words to describe it. The best word is I suppose the word He used–He wants us to be one, and He and His Father are one.

If I understood that, Parker, I would understand a complete fallacy. The words of Scritpure could not be more clear. We have one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is not a concept, it is a revealed truth. This one God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

In speaking of apostasy, the words you have written above are certainly evidence of how far people led by a false prophet can stray from the truth given to us by the Apostles. The apostasy is not in the Catholic Church, but it is certainly alive and well all around it.

 

[ParkerD]

I think this has been asked before.
The Holy Spirit is telling me to follow the Catholic Church that Jesus Christ started when He was here on earth, and promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide and protect His Church.

The Holy Spirit is telling you to follow the Mormon church that Joseph Smith started when he was told that all churches/religions are an abomination.

SO WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRIT LYING TO, YOU OR ME?? IT CAN’T OBVIOUSLY BE BOTH WAYS.

Rainman10,

The problem I see is that your premise is wrong about the “promise” you mentioned, and you can’t start from a wrong premise and be secure in knowing the source of the answer to what would need to have been your sincere prayer, with also having completely in place in your life the firm practice of living by the commandments including ongoing repentance (not saying you’re not, but it’s a given.)

Again, we are talking about a non-forced situation, and non-guarantees because guarantees would be discarding free will choice.

 

[lax16]

He is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, and was the Only Begotten of the Father in the premortal realm where we all knew Him as the Father’s Only Begotten, and as God the Son who was perfect there just as He was perfect living on the earth. We are the spirit children of God in a different way than the way that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son. I have never seen it specifically taught that the belief you mentioned about Lucifer is correct. Lucifer became a fallen angel through his rebellion, but I don’t consider him a spirit brother, nor Christ’s spirit brother. He always deceives in everything he says or does.

from **fairmormon **-

"God the Father also had many other spirit children, created in His image and that of His Only Begotten. These children include all humans born on the earth. Some of God’s children rebelled against Him, and contested the choice of Jesus as Savior. (See D&C 76:25–27). The leader of these children was Lucifer, or Satan. Those spirit children of God who followed Satan in his rebellion against Christ are sometimes referred to as “demons,” or “devils.” (See Moses 4:1–4, Abraham 3:24–28).

Thus, it is technically true to say that Jesus and Satan are “brothers,” in the sense that both have the same spiritual parent, God the Father."

 

[ParkerD]

If I understood that, Parker, I would understand a complete fallacy. The words of Scritpure could not be more clear. We have one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is not a concept, it is a revealed truth. This one God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Which is why the Jews as a people rejected Christ, and insisted He could not be their Messiah and their Jehovah.

I understand that you don’t agree with Isaiah, but I agree with Isaiah and with Christ Himself.

It’s OK–to each their own.

 

[Peter_John]

Thanks, Peter John.

I hadn’t read that manual. Now that I have read that lesson, I’ll explain to my sons that some manuals include information that may include a bit of speculative misconception due to the principle of free will choice even for a lesson manual committee, and that it is best to stick with the primary doctrinal sources, which are the scriptures.

So, thanks for pointing it out so I can talk with my scripturally motivated sons about this. I think they will be able to understand the difference.

You know it is not in there by mistake. You do slide quick when you are on thin ice.

Do not forget that I know what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches, and your claim is is outright deception.

I have never in fifty years known a Mormon ashamed of this teaching of the Church until now. I have never known a member who outright deny anything the Church teaches, the most I have seen is them tip-toeing around the racist doctrines (which at the time I would not even have so labelled, but that is what they are) and the teaching of God once having been a man.

I do not believe that you spent 20 years teching Sunday school without hearing this teaching. I am not even from Utah, and I know that ot was taught in the MTC, and back then it was not even soft-pedalled. It was clearly taught in seminary. YOU KNOW- if you are not even going to talk honestly about what your own religion teaches, what is your point of being on this discussion board? The Holy Spirit cannot witness to something you say that is not true.

Are you denying that the council in Heaven was, in LDS mythology, a council of the Spirit Children of God?

 

[Peter_John]

Rainman10,

The problem I see is that your premise is wrong about the “promise” you mentioned, and you can’t start from a wrong premise and be secure in knowing the source of the answer to what would need to have been your sincere prayer, with also having completely in place in your life the firm practice of living by the commandments including ongoing repentance (not saying you’re not, but it’s a given.)

Again, we are talking about a non-forced situation, and non-guarantees because guarantees would be discarding free will choice.

Let’s cut through the foolishness: The strongest statements any LDS affirmations claim end up coming down to saying that the Book of Mormon was proof of an Apostasy:

I affirm that the Eucharist is proff there was none.

 

[lax16]

He is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, and was the Only Begotten of the Father in the premortal realm where we all knew Him as the Father’s Only Begotten, and as God the Son who was perfect there just as He was perfect living on the earth. We are the spirit children of God in a different way than the way that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son. I have never seen it specifically taught that the belief you mentioned about Lucifer is correct. Lucifer became a fallen angel through his rebellion, but I don’t consider him a spirit brother, nor Christ’s spirit brother. He always deceives in everything he says or does.

Home LDS.orgMagazines**Ensign ** June 1986 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
03201_000_012

How can Jesus and Lucifer be spirit brothers when their characters and purposes are so utterly opposed?
Jess L. Christensen, Institute of Religion director at Utah State University, Logan, Utah.

On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel “who was in authority in the presence of God,” a “son of the morning.” (See Isa. 14:12; **D&C 76:25–27.) **Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)

How could two such great spirits become so totally opposite? The answer lies in the principle of agency, which has existed from all eternity. (See D&C 93:30–31.) Of Lucifer, the scripture says that because of rebellion “he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies.” (Moses 4:4.) Note that he was not created evil, but became Satan by his own choice.

 

[Peter_John]

I assumed you could understand the simple concept that Jehovah was and is the God of Israel, which means God the Father is not the God of Israel or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They were speaking of Jehovah, God the Son.

Jesus, in His intercessory prayer, explains the concept of Oneness and there need be no mistake about what He is saying, though we may use different words to describe it. The best word is I suppose the word He used–He wants us to be one, and He and His Father are one.

Parker, God the father and Jesus Christ are the Same individual. They are one God – and the Book of Mormon is clear on that. It only means anything different when you take material apart for the Book of Mormon as commentary.

Nothing in the Book of Mormon affirms that God has a physical body. Those representations of God having a body affirm that the prophets are seeing Him in the form he will have when he comes to Earth, in context. Only reference to other sources alters this interpretation.

 

[rainman10]

Rainman10,

The problem I see is that your premise is wrong about the “promise” you mentioned, and you can’t start from a wrong premise and be secure in knowing the source of the answer to what would need to have been your sincere prayer, with also having completely in place in your life the firm practice of living by the commandments including ongoing repentance (not saying you’re not, but it’s a given.)

Again, we are talking about a non-forced situation, and non-guarantees because guarantees would be discarding free will choice.

Yes, I can understand how you would come to this conclusion, since you don’t believe ALL that is taught in the Bible. I am a sinner, I try to live by all the commandments, but unfortunately don’t always manage to do so. However, I do believe everything we are taught in the Bible and believe in the promise that the Holy Spirit will guide and protect Jesus’ Church.

 

[Stephen168]

Whoever wrote the Book of Mormon believed in the Trinity
Mosiah 15:1-5:

And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
** And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.**

 

[SteveVH]

Which is why the Jews as a people rejected Christ, and insisted He could not be their Messiah and their Jehovah.

I understand that you don’t agree with Isaiah, but I agree with Isaiah and with Christ Himself.

It’s OK–to each their own.

Please do not make statements about my beliefs, which you know are not true, as an alternative to a credible argument. Ok?

 

[Peter_John]

Lax16,

That would be if a person doesn’t have the Holy Spirit with them and thus must trust that every word is exactly and precisely the word God would have used if He had been originating or translating the message. I consider the KJV as the word of God, and am fine that there is an important need for the Holy Spirit when studying the Bible.

He is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, and was the Only Begotten of the Father in the premortal realm where we all knew Him as the Father’s Only Begotten, and as God the Son who was perfect there just as He was perfect living on the earth. We are the spirit children of God in a different way than the way that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son. I have never seen it specifically taught that the belief you mentioned about Lucifer is correct. Lucifer became a fallen angel through his rebellion, but I don’t consider him a spirit brother, nor Christ’s spirit brother. He always deceives in everything he says or does.

This is why one needs to learn to identify the guidance of the Holy Ghost in their life, so that they are not deceived. It’s also why learning to love the Bible as it was originally inspired to be written is so important, to learn to distinguish men’s ideas from God’s original and direct meaning.

This link is not to an official Church source, but to a source of dependable authority in LDS scriptural exegesis, with members including LDS Church authorities, and educators at BYU.

fairlds.org/pubs/JesusSatan.pdf

If you honestlt do believe that this a doctrine of Mormonism which you have never heard formally taught, and is not a valid teaching, than you need to reconsider your whole religion.

I find that hard to believe. Right now I have never been this angry since first realizing how much the LDS Church lied to me about what Catholics teach and about the Apostasy.

 

[Peter_John]

Rainman10,

The problem I see is that your premise is wrong about the “promise” you mentioned, and you can’t start from a wrong premise and be secure in knowing the source of the answer to what would need to have been your sincere prayer, with also having completely in place in your life the firm practice of living by the commandments including ongoing repentance (not saying you’re not, but it’s a given.)

Again, we are talking about a non-forced situation, and non-guarantees because guarantees would be discarding free will choice.

PArker, the Doctrine and Covenants shows that you beleive in a God whose promises can’t be counted on. It is full of promisies of this blessingm that, position , or those keys, given to someone or toher forever, and later removed.

Catholics believe that God doesn’t giove such things without holding to it. When Jesus told Peter that the gates of hell would not prevail angainst the “gathering” Peter would bring together, he meant it.

I am still waiting to see if that letter from Polycarp to which I posted a link yesterday has any eveidence of Apostasy in it.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, I can understand how you would come to this conclusion, since you don’t believe ALL that is taught in the Bible. I am a sinner, I try to live by all the commandments, but unfortunately don’t always manage to do so. However, I do believe everything we are taught in the Bible and believe in the promise that the Holy Spirit will guide and protect Jesus’ Church.

Rainman10,

You are mistaken in the assumption that I “don’t believe ALL that is taught in the Bible.” I do indeed, as I seem to have to explain over and over again. The promise you alluded to is misunderstood and misconstrued, as I’ve also explained over and over again. That doesn’t make it that I don’t believe the Bible. It means I don’t subscribe to the misconstrual of some verses by some people.

 

[Peter_John]

Home LDS.orgMagazines**Ensign **June 1986 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
03201_000_012

How can Jesus and Lucifer be spirit brothers when their characters and purposes are so utterly opposed?
Jess L. Christensen, Institute of Religion director at Utah State University, Logan, Utah.

On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel “who was in authority in the presence of God,” a “son of the morning.” (See Isa. 14:12; **D&C 76:25–27.) **Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)

How could two such great spirits become so totally opposite? The answer lies in the principle of agency, which has existed from all eternity. (See D&C 93:30–31.) Of Lucifer, the scripture says that because of rebellion “he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies.” (Moses 4:4.) Note that he was not created evil, but became Satan by his own choice.

He probably missed that issue.