LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[RebeccaJ]

Jesus is the new and everlasting covenant. This is a basic Christian understanding all references to a new covenant, in the OT and NT.

There is no reason to look for something or someone that replaces HIM.

Christ is the Bride of His Church. From the baptismal font is born the People of God of the New Covenant.

Baptism is prefigured in the crossing of the Jordan River by which the People of God received the gift of the land promised to Abraham’s descendants, an image of eternal life. The promise of this blessed inheritance is fulfilled in the New Covenant.

 

[zaffiroborant]

No, I assume most everyone did their best with the knowledge they had. But it’s pretty plain that there was a disconnect about apostles having presiding authority, when your history bypasses John even though acknowledging he was the last living apostle.

Where is there evidence that “presiding authority” passed through the hands of the various Apostles?? Who had it after Peter, and after his successor and so on??

 

[Monkey1976]

I am saying that because there is scant historical evidence of Jesus, historical evidence is not going to be used to verify or confirm anything about Jesus.
It is Catholic records and Catholic traditions that verify Catholic claims…which is not surprising.
There is no doubt that there have been a string of leaders in the Catholic church

St. Irenaeus was a student of St. Polycarp, who was a student of St. John the Apostle. By the time of his writing, the Apostles had all passed from this life, either through martyrdom or natural causes. Don’t you see it as even a little bit odd that he wouldn’t mention this loss of the “fullness of priestly authority”?

 

[ParkerD]

Where is there evidence that “presiding authority” passed through the hands of the various Apostles?? Who had it after Peter, and after his successor and so on??

Zaffiroborant,

The evidence is provided in how things happened with the law of circumcision being understood (by Peter, by revelation to him) to no longer apply, and in the book of Revelation which was a doctrinal revelation given to John, the presiding apostle at the time of that doctrinal revelation. There were only those two presiding apostles, successively.

Wishing peace and joy to you and all.

 

[pablope]

I am saying that because there is scant historical evidence of Jesus, historical evidence is not going to be used to verify or confirm anything about Jesus.

It is Catholic records and Catholic traditions that verify Catholic claims…which is not surprising.
There is no doubt that there have been a string of leaders in the Catholic church

As for the Vatican archives, so what if they are catholic records? There is also a trove of non-religious or non-catholic records. And students, writers, professors, researchers, access the Vatican archives for study, research, and what not…and verify it with non-catholic records and other means.

Yes, those string of leaders of the CC, as promised by Chris, have been protected by the HS, and the Church Jesus established. Why would Jesus let it fall away? If He did, Jesus just wasted being crucified.

 

[pablope]

So are you saying Irenaeus was not Catholic? Was an independent neutral 3rd party?

Where did you get this idea Irenaeus was not Catholic? I showed this quote from him to show you how the Apostles chose their successors and passed on to this day.

 

[pablope]

Where is there evidence that “presiding authority” passed through the hands of the various Apostles?? Who had it after Peter, and after his successor and so on??

when your history bypasses John even though acknowledging he was the last living apostle.

Hi, Zaffi…you will discover that Parker insists that John should have been pope after Peter died, and that is one of his basis for denying apostolic succession. He refuses to acknowledge that John had a different mission from Christ, and that John was not after the papacy, John realized Jesus command to Peter to lead and tend the flock, and Peter’s successor would be the taking over Peter’s office, not him. Parker is making John look like a squabbling and power hungry politician, when John was not.

In addition, Jesus also said that John would die a natural death, if he had succeeded Peter, John would have been put to death unnaturally by the Roman persecution, and would have made Jesus a liar. History bears out the fact that the Peter’s immediate successors were executed by the Romans.

 

[Stephen168]

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit guided the apostles to not ordain new apostles?

I don’t think it takes the Holy Spirit. Acts 1:15-26 tells us Peter said there would not be Apostles much past the first century. The idea that Apostles are needed to have Priesthood Authority was an invention of Brigham Young. The Mormon Church went 5 years without Apostles and 9 more before it was decided they held the ‘Keys to the Kingdom.’

 

[Stephen168]

Where is there evidence that “presiding authority” passed through the hands of the various Apostles??

This was the invention of Brigham Young upon Joseph Smith’s death. Brigham Young’s claim was the cause of the succession crisis.

 

[Javl]

It is also a matter of hisorical record of who has lead the church from Joseph Smith on down to the current President, Thomas S. Monson. All who have been Apostles are also a matter of historical records.

Was an independent study required when Jesus called the 12? Or when Jesus selected Peter to lead the church? Were non-Jews called in to confirm anything Jesus did?

Historical only for the Mormons for it really means nothing as far as mainline Christianity goes. There were only Twelve Apostles called by Jesus (actually 13 with St. Paul ), no more, no less. So called “apostles” other than these are either fraudulent or spurious, for there is no biblical support for them.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Big_Dummy]

I have said it before, when it comes to matters of faith, the only thing that can be done is to present evidence, because it cannot be proven.
The most convincing evidence to me is that a prophet of God stated it.
If someone approched Peter and asked him to prove that Jesus is the Son of God, what proof could he provide? None, because it was through revelation that he came to that knowledge.
There is no “proof” that I can produce that would convince you that the priesthood was removed…just as there is no “proof” that you can produce that would convince me that it was not.

Third Nephi Chapter 28

Nine of the Twelve desire and are promised an inheritance in Christ’s kingdom when they die—The Three Nephites desire and are given power over death so as to remain on the earth until Jesus comes again—They are translated and see things not lawful to utter, and they are now ministering among men. About A.D. 34–35.

1And it came to pass when Jesus had said these words, he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye adesire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?

2And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.

3And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are aseventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my bkingdom; and with me ye shall find crest.

4And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

5And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

**6And he said unto them: Behold, I aknow your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall anever taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from amortality to bimmortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.
**

lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/28?lang=eng

Joseph Fielding Smith said so: “When the Savior came to the Nephites, he established the Church in its fulness among them, and he informed them that former things had passed away, for they were all fulfilled in him. **He gave the Nephites all the authority of the priesthood which we exercise today. Therefore we are justified in the belief that not only was the fulness of the Melchizedek Priesthood conferred, but also the Aaronic, just as we have it in the Church today; **and this Aaronic Priesthood remained with them from this time until, through wickedness, all priesthood ceased. We may be assured that in the days of Moroni the Nephites did ordain teachers and priests in the Aaronic Priesthood; but before the visit of the Savior they officiated in the Melchizedek Priesthood.” (Answers to Gospel Questions, 1:124-26.)

Well, Since the Apostle John and maybe these three Nephites had the priesthood, it is clear the priesthood could not have left the earth even according to your own records.

 

[ParkerD]

Historical only for the Mormons for it really means nothing as far as mainline Christianity goes. There were only Twelve Apostles called by Jesus (actually 13 with St. Paul ), no more, no less. So called “apostles” other than these are either fraudulent or spurious, for there is no biblical support for them.

Shalom Aleichem

Hello, JAVL,

So do you use those words in describing the following persons?

Galatians 1:19
But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.

Acts 14:14
Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

I don’t think it’s a good idea to do that.

Peace and good health to you, JAVL.

 

[Javl]

Hello, JAVL,

So do you use those words in describing the following persons?

Galatians 1:19
But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.

Acts 14:14
Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

I don’t think it’s a good idea to do that.

Peace and good health to you, JAVL.

My dear friend, again you misconstrue what I have written. Christ appointed only twelve directly to be His Apostles. Barnabas was called to replace Judas by the Holy Spirit and Paul calls himself “an Apostle”. Other than these there is no biblical support for any others. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Stephen168]

Hello, JAVL,

So do you use those words in describing the following persons?

Galatians 1:19
But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.

Acts 14:14
Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

I don’t think it’s a good idea to do that.

Peace and good health to you, JAVL.

They did not replace any of The Twelve. If fact, they seem to have lived at the same time as The Twelve.

 

[Javl]

SteveVH,

Christ confirmed an everlasting covenant that had already been described in the Old Testament:

Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:13
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Genesis 17:19
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Isaiah 55:3
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

The sure mercies of David, even the blessings of grace through the atonement of Christ, and the promise of redemption and of a joint throne with Christ for covenant keepers of the new and everlasting covenant, are what are everlasting promises.

You are confusing and mixing two entirely different covenants. Any covenant mentioned and made in the OT is for the Hebrews ( Jews ) alone. The New Covenant that Jesus made at the Last supper was and is for all His followers, Jew and Gentile alike. The same with the Old Law and New Law. Jesus fulfilled and completed the Old Law. His followers are no longer bound to or by it. But, the Jews who rejected Jesus are still bound by the Old Law and Covenant. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Joseph Fielding Smith said so:*** “When the Savior came to the Nephites, he established the Church in its fulness among them ***, and he informed them that former things had passed away, for they were all fulfilled in him. He gave the Nephites all the authority of the priesthood which we exercise today. Therefore we are justified in the belief that not only was the fulness of the Melchizedek Priesthood conferred, but also the Aaronic, just as we have it in the Church today; and this Aaronic Priesthood remained with them from this time until, through wickedness, all priesthood ceased. We may be assured that in the days of Moroni the Nephites did ordain teachers and priests in the Aaronic Priesthood; but before the visit of the Savior they officiated in the Melchizedek Priesthood.” (Answers to Gospel Questions, 1:124-26.)

This quote brings up three questions:

1. What and where is this Church Jesus established with the Nephites?
2. If Jesus established a Church among the Nephites then why was it necessary for
   Joseph Smith to establish one?
3. Did the Nephites also apostacize?

Just curious.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

You are mixing up the Apostles with Christ’s disciples. Christ had many disciples who followed Him, but left Him before the Last Supper.

There were many remaining disciples with the apostles and Mary at Pentecost, the beginning of the apostolic Church.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

Christ confirmed an everlasting covenant that had already been described in the Old Testament:

Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:13
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Genesis 17:19
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Isaiah 55:3
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

The sure mercies of David, even the blessings of grace through the atonement of Christ, and the promise of redemption and of a joint throne with Christ for covenant keepers of the new and everlasting covenant, are what are everlasting promises.

I’m not sure what your statement has to do with the question at hand. Christ is foretold throughout the Old Testament because he is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.

Daniel prayed for an end to the Babylonian exile. Gabriel then appears to Daniel and informs him that the exile will not last only seventy years, but rather seventy times seventy, or 490 years. However, the angel also tells Daniel that the Messiah will come. When does Gabriel appear again? When he is sent to Zechariah and Mary to announce the coming of the Messiah. The time of exile is now over and the time of the Messiah is at hand. The point is, it is a new day in salvation history. A new period has begun. Christ himself announces that the kingdom of God is at hand and then, at the last supper, Jesus establishes the new and everlasting covenant in his blood. He establishes his Church in order to extend God’s kingdom to the ends of the earth and promises to never leave it.

To believe that God would bring an end to his own kingdom; instruct the Apostles to withhold the very authority required to extend his own kingdom, is beyond imagination and certainly beyond reason. How many kings purposely destroy their own kingdoms? For what purpose?

 

[Jerusha]

1. Did the Nephites also apostacize?

EXCELLENT question. Repeated for emphasis.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,

The evidence is provided in how things happened with the law of circumcision being understood (by Peter, by revelation to him) to no longer apply, and in the book of Revelation which was a doctrinal revelation given to John, the presiding apostle at the time of that doctrinal revelation. There were only those two presiding apostles, successively.

Wishing peace and joy to you and all.

That is quite simply not evidence. And I don’t see how it makes any sense in light of the LDS belief that John is still on earth today.