LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[lax16]

(To continue a discussion from another thread that was closed because it was at the
1000+ mark)

**How do you know that God took away priesthood authority from the earth? Why would God do that?
**

flyonthewall said:
The Apostles were given the keys of the kingdom. They began replacing their members as needed, but then stopped. The very fact that the Apostles did not continue is evidence enough.

How do you know this?

 

[Prague]

Maybe a little birdie told them.

 

[Stephen168]

In Mormonism and Catholicism, ‘Apostle’ doesn’t equal ‘keys to the kingdom’ given to Peter by Christ.

Catholicism has the historical knowledge that the keys have been passed down from Peter through the Bishops of Rome to the current Bishop.

Mormons have faith that the ‘keys of the kingdom’ were given to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, five years before there was a Mormon Apostle, by Peter, James and John; or a Holy Angel depending on which story you put your faith in. And the keys were held by Joseph Smith and the First Presidency, but not Oliver Cowdery and not the First Presidency if Joseph Smith died; or Brigham Young claimed he had them instead. Of course none of this has any basis in history.

 

[agent_grey]

first… the keys where given to Peter and by tradition we know they where passed to the succesors.

but… if you read the prophetic book known as the apocalypse or revelation you will see that at some point Yeshua has the keys. In my little mind this is proof positive that there will come a time when there is no succesor on earth with the keys unless it is the second coming.

Now that is fine and well. The problem arises when cults teach that nobody living on earth has the keys and then turn around and attempt to celebrate communion.

It is my belief that when the time comes that Yeshua reclaims the keys; communion is no longer available or at the very least extremely difficult to determine.

It is my thought that true communion is the only way one can possibly know Christ. What I say is if the Christ you know is by any other means you have a personal relationship with a devil.

If at the moment of recieving Communion you know Christ you are so blessed and can know with certanty that it is the true and living God that you know. But if you believe yourself to know Christ by any other means you are in a very bad spot.

 

[zerinus]

(To continue a discussion from another thread that was closed because it was at the
1000+ mark)

**How do you know that God took away priesthood authority from the earth? Why would God do that?
**

flyonthewall said:
The Apostles were given the keys of the kingdom. They began replacing their members as needed, but then stopped. The very fact that the Apostles did not continue is evidence enough.

How do you know this?

All religious belief, when striped down to its core elements, boils down to faith. It is a matter of faith. You don’t “prove” it, you just believe it. Mormonism is no different. We believe that the priesthood was lost primarily because we believe in the revelations of Joseph Smith that say that it has been restored. If it was restored, that means that it must have been lost. Now if you don’t believe in the revelations of Joseph Smith, then it is perfectly possible to have an alternate viewpoint. We claim that we have the witness of the Holy Spirit that testifies to us that those revelations are true, and that is what we base our belief on. You are equally entitled to your viewpoint, which is equally respectable. Endlessly arguing about it isn’t really going to solve anyone’s problem.

 

[lax16]

All religious belief, when striped down to its core elements, boils down to faith. It is a matter of faith. You don’t “prove” it, you just believe it. Mormonism is no different. We believe that the priesthood was lost primarily because we believe in the revelations of Joseph Smith that say that it has been restored. If it was restored, that means that it must have been lost. Now if you don’t believe in the revelations of Joseph Smith, then it is perfectly possible to have an alternate viewpoint. We claim that we have the witness of the Holy Spirit that testifies to us that those revelations are true, and that is what we base our belief on. You are equally entitled to your viewpoint, which is equally respectable. Endlessly arguing about it isn’t really going to solve anyone’s problem.

Hi zerinus - While I agree that faith is an immeasurable component of religious belief, one can’t ignore biblical history, can they?

I don’t have an alternate viewpoint because I want to, but because I believe in Jesus Christ and His Promise as told to us in the Bible.

The reason for the question is not to argue endlessly, but to challenge mormon.org and my pamphet from the Mormon missionaries stating that they KNOW the Great Apostasy happened. One cannot say “I know” then back it up with “because I have faith.”

If you all KNOW the Great Apostasy happened when the priesthood authority was taken from the earth, then prove it. At least cite scripture to back up your position. I think that it is a reasonable request.

 

[SteveVH]

All religious belief, when striped down to its core elements, boils down to faith. It is a matter of faith. You don’t “prove” it, you just believe it. Mormonism is no different. We believe that the priesthood was lost primarily because we believe in the revelations of Joseph Smith that say that it has been restored. If it was restored, that means that it must have been lost. Now if you don’t believe in the revelations of Joseph Smith, then it is perfectly possible to have an alternate viewpoint. We claim that we have the witness of the Holy Spirit that testifies to us that those revelations are true, and that is what we base our belief on. You are equally entitled to your viewpoint, which is equally respectable. Endlessly arguing about it isn’t really going to solve anyone’s problem.

Except that the Catholic Church can “prove it” based upon historical documents establishing succession all the way back to Peter. We also have the promises of Christ himself concerning his Church. So we have faith, historical records, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition on which to base our conclusions. The LDS has only the claim of a man, a claim which history itself refutes. There is no equality between the claims, based simply on a viewpoint. Faith and reason do not conflict in our Church. This is not a choice based upon any equivalency in origin of belief or the ability to establish a reason for that belief.

 

[zalzankavol]

Sadly, none of the historical claims of the book of mormon have been proved; rather they have been embarrassingly disproved time and again by archeology. New accounts have surfaced in recent years that seem to indicate the founder of mormonism was already working on his new mythical world even as a youth.

While many of the basic tenets of mormonism are admirable and consistent with Christianity, the book of mormon loses all credibility in the face of any kind of exegesis, historical analyisis, and archeological corroboration. I have confronted multiple mormon dor-to-door visitors with just the archeology piece and was told that I just hadn;t prayed enough to see the truth.

 

[zerinus]

Hi zerinus - While I agree that faith is an immeasurable component of religious belief, one can’t ignore biblical history, can they?

I don’t have an alternate viewpoint because I want to, but because I believe in Jesus Christ and His Promise as told to us in the Bible.

I think that our position is equally compelling–based on faith.

The reason for the question is not to argue endlessly, but to challenge mormon.org and my pamphet from the Mormon missionaries stating that they KNOW the Great Apostasy happened. One cannot say “I know” then back it up with “because I have faith.”

I think they can. We “know” by the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

If you all KNOW the Great Apostasy happened when the priesthood authority was taken from the earth, then prove it. At least cite scripture to back up your position. I think that it is a reasonable request.

See above. There has been enough scripture cited. That obviously has not convinced you, although to us it is convincing.

 

[zerinus]

Except that the Catholic Church can “prove it” based upon historical documents establishing succession all the way back to Peter. We also have the promises of Christ himself concerning his Church. So we have faith, historical records, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition on which to base our conclusions. The LDS has only the claim of a man, a claim which history itself refutes. There is no equality between the claims, based simply on a viewpoint. Faith and reason do not conflict in our Church. This is not a choice based upon any equivalency in origin of belief or the ability to establish a reason for that belief.

If that is what you believe it is fine by me. I have no desire to argue with you over that. I do, however, find the Mormon position more convincing.

 

[SteveVH]

If that is what you believe it is fine by me. I have no desire to argue with you over that. I do, however, find the Mormon position more convincing.

Argument is actually a noble excercise when engaged in by reasonable people with the common goal of finding truth in the end. My comments were stated for the purpose of establishing a basis for Catholic belief as opposed to the basis for LDS belief concerning the loss of “priesthood authority”. I was only responding to your comments and hoping you would make a reasonable defense.

 

[flyonthewall]

(To continue a discussion from another thread that was closed because it was at the
1000+ mark)

**How do you know that God took away priesthood authority from the earth? Why would God do that?
**

flyonthewall said:
The Apostles were given the keys of the kingdom. They began replacing their members as needed, but then stopped. The very fact that the Apostles did not continue is evidence enough.

How do you know this?

I have said it before, when it comes to matters of faith, the only thing that can be done is to present evidence, because it cannot be proven.
The most convincing evidence to me is that a prophet of God stated it.
If someone approched Peter and asked him to prove that Jesus is the Son of God, what proof could he provide? None, because it was through revelation that he came to that knowledge.
There is no “proof” that I can produce that would convince you that the priesthood was removed…just as there is no “proof” that you can produce that would convince me that it was not.

 

[KathleenGee]

I just finished watching a program on St. Thomas Aquinas on EWTN.

I wish Mormons would have listened to it. It also brings up the dispute between the Catholic university professors of Sorbonne vs the emerging mendicant Franciscan and Dominican orders who were living very simple lives, trying to conform themselves to the Gospels. I wonder if the beginning Mormons heard reference to the professors of Sorbonne in the 1200’s considering Mormon literature pointing to corrupt professors.

Anyway, St. Thomas proved the existence of God with both faith and reason. The use of reason enables us to better discern that which is truth, and draws on our intellectual faculties.

We are entering into nebulous areas when only faith is used to back up archaeological or theological claims in face of thousands of years of faith tradition, including Jewish history and its faith tradition.

 

[lax16]

I think that our position is equally compelling–based on faith.

My position is based on faith and logic.

I think they can. We “know” by the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

But zerinus, Jesus Christ came for all. God would not have a religion that could be disproven or that is illogical. He would not have a religion that would require belief only. He left plenty of evidence in order to save as many souls as possible.

See above. There has been enough scripture cited. That obviously has not convinced you, although to us it is convincing.

I have not seen any scripture cited. I asked flyonthewall and he did not provide it either. Perhaps you are referring to a different thread?
Anyway, please cite scripture to support the LDS Church claim that “the priesthood authority - including the keys to direct and receive revelation for the Church - was taken from the earth.” (The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, page 9)

 

[lax16]

If that is what you believe it is fine by me. I have no desire to argue with you over that. I do, however, find the Mormon position more convincing.

WHAT MORMON POSITION??!!

If it is so convincing, would you please provide support for your position?

 

[lax16]

I have said it before, when it comes to matters of faith, the only thing that can be done is to present evidence, because it cannot be proven.
The most convincing evidence to me is that a prophet of God stated it.
If someone approched Peter and asked him to prove that Jesus is the Son of God, what proof could he provide? None, because it was through revelation that he came to that knowledge.
There is no “proof” that I can produce that would convince you that the priesthood was removed…just as there is no “proof” that you can produce that would convince me that it was not.

Please present the evidence. What is the evidence that a prophet of God (JS) stated it?
Why can’t you cross reference your claim?

Peter could point to the many miracles that Jesus performed. It was not through revelation that Peter came to know Jesus as the Son of God.
Please provide scripture references for this.

 

[flyonthewall]

I have not seen any scripture cited. I asked flyonthewall and he did not provide it either. Perhaps you are referring to a different thread?
Anyway, please cite scripture to support the LDS Church claim that “the priesthood authority - including the keys to direct and receive revelation for the Church - was taken from the earth.” (The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, page 9)

Here is a scripture that states the priesthood would never AGAIN be taken away:

69Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

This is scripture to me, but somehow I doubt you will agree.

 

[flyonthewall]

Please present the evidence. What is the evidence that a prophet of God (JS) stated it?
Why can’t you cross reference your claim?

Peter could point to the many miracles that Jesus performed. It was not through revelation that Peter came to know Jesus as the Son of God.
Please provide scripture references for this.

It was through revelation. The scripture states that:
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Jesus performed miracles in front of many, including the Jewish leadership, but it did not prove anything to them. No, proof in matters of faith comes only through the Holy Ghost, and then it is a personal proof.

 

[lax16]

Here is a scripture that states the priesthood would never AGAIN be taken away:

This is scripture to me, but somehow I doubt you will agree.

What I know is that Mormon men cannot hold the Melchizedek or Aaronic priesthood.

Read the Old Testament and see for yourself.

I am truly dumbfounded that Mormons pass out literature making broad claims that they can’t back up at all.
I really thought you’d have something to say about priesthood authority being taken from the earth.

So all of Mormonism hangs on the sayings of one Joseph Smith…???

 

[flyonthewall]

What I know is that Mormon men cannot hold the Melchizedek or Aaronic priesthood.

Read the Old Testament and see for yourself.

I am truly dumbfounded that Mormons pass out literature making broad claims that they can’t back up at all.
I really thought you’d have something to say about priesthood authority being taken from the earth.

So all of Mormonism hangs on the sayings of one Joseph Smith…???

Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is, of course, the source of it all.