LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[ParkerD]

I got the drift. .

Evidently not.

I am indeed a “regular guy” who is interested in following the Savior’s example. The Savior taught to “follow Him”. Those who say that one who is trying to follow Him is trying to “be Him” are just being silly and nonsensical. A follower of the New Testament in word and deed will be trying to follow the Savior’s example.

So I give up. You will never get my drift. Bye.

 

[Stephen168]

. Bye.

If you have nothing to offer on the subject of this thread but excuses, it is best. 1 Peter 3:15

 

[flyonthewall]

You made the statement, not I. I asked you to back it up. Your response, however, is just what I expected.

I have already given you documentation…D&C 20 addresses the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ.
lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/20.1?lang=eng#0
Do you accept this as authorative? I do.

Yes, I’m sure you can, Fly. But neither you nor I can conceive of this level of divine intimacy which is beyond the senses and beyond the power of the intellect. I would encourage you to read about any of them. Read about the life of Padre Pio, who just died in the 60’s. The wounds of Christ he bore were verified as authentic by physicians outside of the Catholic Church, as well as the miracles he performed both during and after his life here on earth. The witnesses to his sacred life and miracles are almost countless. Why don’t you give it a try? It couldn’t hurt.

I have my opinions about the stigmata, which I will keep to myself.

 

[Javl]

You still speak of irrefutable proof, which I have seen none. The only documentation that you have is no better than the documentation we have, and it is based on where your faith lies if it is to be considered proof of anything.
We have it documented that Jesus Christ stated that His church was not to be found on the earth and Joseph Smith was to restore it. Does that sway you at all?
The very fact that Jesus Christ made that statement, and it is documented, tosses all your documentation and irrefutable proof out the window. I will believe the words of Jesus Christ over anything you can bring forward, as there are none more authoritative than He.

Because you have seen none does not prove none exists. Many non-Catholics have and admit to its legitimacy. Documented proof is stored in the Vatican Library archives which covers the 2000 plus years. These documents are available for research to any legitimate scholar and/or theologian of any persuasion. This is because many of the documents are centuries old and are fragile. If you do not accept this then you have a problem.

As for LDS proof, no Catholic or Protestant scholar or theologfian has ever seen any legitimate proof of Joseph Smith’s claim. The Book Of Mormon is no proof. I submit the following link as evidence: catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305fea4.asp. Read and understand the section about Spalding.

So you make a difference between public and private miracles. I don’t see a difference, and no “mystic” is needed to give God glory. You either believe it is from God or you do not, and no amount of heraldry will change facts.
Again, the LDS church has many miracles in its history and we do not need a “mystic” to know who performed the miracles.

And I say again, it is the foolish things of the world that the Lord uses to confound the wise and the weak things of the world to confound the mighty.

Fly: I truly feel sorry for you that you are so blinded by such fantasy and falsity that is fed to you by the LDS church. You cling to the fraud as if you were drowning. I sincerely pray that you and all the LDS that have been duped into believing Smith’s claim have the veil lifted from your eyes and see and enjoy the true beauty and glory of God’s word in true Christianity. Until then…

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[flyonthewall]

Because you have seen none does not prove none exists. Many non-Catholics have and admit to its legitimacy. Documented proof is stored in the Vatican Library archives which covers the 2000 plus years. These documents are available for research to any legitimate scholar and/or theologian of any persuasion. This is because many of the documents are centuries old and are fragile. If you do not accept this then you have a problem.

As for LDS proof, no Catholic or Protestant scholar or theologfian has ever seen any legitimate proof of Joseph Smith’s claim. The Book Of Mormon is no proof. I submit the following link as evidence: catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305fea4.asp. Read and understand the section about Spalding.

“The Wacky World of Joseph Smith”…That is the title of the article you wish for me to take seriously?
You point to the section about Solomon Spaulding to read and understand.
I hate to break this to you but the Solomon Spaulding accusation is nothing new and has thouroughly been refuted to the point that it only serves as an illustration of extremely poor research on the subject.
There are many attempts out there to discredit anything and everything LDS, but when they are countered with the truth, they fall like a house of cards.

Fly: I truly feel sorry for you that you are so blinded by such fantasy and falsity that is fed to you by the LDS church. You cling to the fraud as if you were drowning. I sincerely pray that you and all the LDS that have been duped into believing Smith’s claim have the veil lifted from your eyes and see and enjoy the true beauty and glory of God’s word in true Christianity. Until then…

And I could say the same about you, and your faith… but I respect the faith of others.

Those that are not against Christ are for Him…even if we disagree.

Peace to you.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

Glad you did not take offense, I didn’t think you did.

Looking again at Luke 24, I don’t follow what you are getting at. There is much meaning to the entire event, considering the timing…must have been so electrifying to the populace…and the just rose from the dead on the day of the crucifixion and appeared to various people…the temple veil torn…

I see Jesus as the One who is the true interpreter of the Word of God, the author, and the true minister of the Eucharist.

Upon receiving my First Holy Communion, and my little sister seeing me in white with a veil, exclaimed I was Christ’s bride…and when at the moment of my reception, I felt my whole inner being burning as if it was being scrubbed clean to become pure in Him, that my inner sanctuary was now worthy to hold Him.

I mentioned before about my 4 year old son and our visit to the Madeline in SLC, and the elderly priest thinking he had already had his First Communion…Michael receiving the Lord, I looking back at him…his eyes enlarged…such power! he said. He really felt something. His feeling was a response to the Divine and Most Pure Presence of the Divine Lord.

My child had not been given much instruction yet on the Eucharist. He was very sick as an infant. One night he was having a hard time breathing, got up at 14 months old, wobbled to my rosary and brought it back to me, ‘Pray, Mommy!’

 

[ParkerD]

Kathleen,

First off, if reading the internet is distracting you from your children and giving them your full attention (not knowing their ages…), then please don’t bother to read this and instead give them your undivided attention–that would be the number one thing you as their mother can do.

These disciples on the road to Emmaus weren’t expecting to see the risen Lord. The main point of the passage is that He opened unto them the scriptures, and re-taught them verses that should already have been familiar to them. The burning in their hearts was because they were hearing true teachings and a true testimony about those teachings. It was not because of the “electrifying experience” of the crucifixion, which they were aware of, or the resurrection, which they were loosely aware of but were in a condition of wondering about what it all meant.

I see Jesus as the One who is the true interpreter of the Word of God, the author

Yes, true.

and the true minister of the Lord’s supper.

Yes, but the burning in their hearts came before He broke the bread and gave it to them. The burning in their hearts came as He opened unto them the scriptures and taught them.

Upon receiving my First Holy Communion, and my little sister seeing me in white with a veil, exclaimed I was Christ’s bride…and when at the moment of my reception, I felt my whole inner being burning as if it was being scrubbed clean to become pure in Him, that my inner sanctuary was now worthy to hold Him.

That sounds like a special experience with you and your sister. But just as you have questioned the LDS about a “feeling”, I would hesitate to think that this experience was a “burning in the heart” meaning that the Holy Ghost was teaching and confirming truths of God. I suspect your self-honesty gave you the realization that that experience could be an emotional response to the situation.

I am talking about a different thing altogether than an emotional response to a religious experience or a religious setting. If that was all the LDS are talking about, then you would have been correct to have doubted the authenticity of saying one has experienced their “heart burning within them” where their understanding has increased through receiving knowledge and a witness from God, by the Holy Ghost.

It would not be something to be experienced by a four-year-old. Children can certainly be inspired to ask their parents for blessings, for prayers, and for guidance–but the Holy Ghost’s “burning in the heart” inspiration is when a parent receives an impression that they should go out of their way to do something that builds their child or comforts them, or builds or comforts a friend, or they receive a new insight as they read the Bible itself, on their own, in a quiet moment of reflection and meditation.

 

[pablope]

I am generally very concerned with this type of argument…not to trust one’s feelings. It is Christ that set up that we are blest when we follow the Holy Spirit when he asked Simon Barjona, Peter, who he thought he was. Peter responded the Christ. Jesus answered saying that he was blest because God told him who he was. How does God communicate to man? Is it as one man speaks to another? Sometimes as with Moses he does, but the vast majority of times he speaks to mankind through the Holy Spirit, which is a feeling.

I also find it disingenuous when we make fun of Mormons and their burning feeling in their bosom. Yet, Acts tells of the two who hearts burned within them when speaking to the Christ.

Let us not be foolish and criticize things that are in our own teachings and understandings. The problem with faith is that is has nothing to do with facts. Facts are about knowing and has nothing to do with faith. We live only by faith.

Feelings, emotions should be tempered by reasoning and logic.

Example, that is easily available to read, is the advice given when buying a car, not to let your emotions rule but reasoning. This also reminds of the movie Return of the Jedi, in the battle between Darth Vader and Luke, when Luke thinks about his sister, and Darth Vader gains the knowledge of Luke’s hidden sister…and DV says (paraphrasing)…“your feelings have betrayed you…”

 

[RebeccaJ]

It would not be something to be experienced by a four-year-old. Children can certainly be inspired to ask their parents for blessings, for prayers, and for guidance–but the Holy Ghost’s “burning in the heart” inspiration is when a parent receives an impression that they should go out of their way to do something that builds their child or comforts them, or builds or comforts a friend, or they receive a new insight as they read the Bible itself, on their own, in a quiet moment of reflection and meditation.

Catholic children, who are baptized members of Christ’s Church, certainly can and do receive inspiration from the Holy Spirit. To say young children cannot know God, intimately, is really, quite sad.

 

[pablope]

I hear a lot of people talk about 2000 years of history.

All religions have claimed miracles from God. LDS history is full of miracles from God. We do not employ “Mystics” to prove that God performed a miracle. This is not proof of anything.

It is said that God uses the weak things of the world to confound the wise.
Joseph Smith is indeed one of the weak things of the world.

This is really not an argument that something is true.

.

Something can be inaccurate for 2000 years which does not prove that it is correct.

Okay, what is inaccurate? Show it and prove it. You always make statements like this, and do not provide incorruptible, definitive proof.

If there was something inaccurate for the last 2000 years, there should be treasure trove of documents, studies, independent scholarly work, that should be readily available and that you should be able to cite. Where is it?

LDS history is full of miracles from God.

Yeah, what are these miracles? Have these been investigated by independent scientists, doctors, and other people not connected to the LDS?

The miracle of the sun at Fatima in 1917 was witnessed by about 50K people, and the miraculous cures at that event were investigated and verified. Does the LDS have something similar to claim?

God needs no “mystics” to verify His works.

How do you know this? So you know better than God on what to do? You are above God then?

 

[pablope]

You still speak of irrefutable proof, which I have seen none. The only documentation that you have is no better than the documentation we

And I say again, it is the foolish things of the world that the Lord uses to confound the wise and the weak things of the world to confound the mighty.

The very fact that Jesus Christ made that statement, and it is documented, tosses all your documentation and irrefutable proof out the window. I will believe the words of Jesus Christ over anything you can bring forward, as there are none more authoritative than He.

If Jesus made the statement, and it came true, then there should be a treasure trove of documented evidence, verified and collaborated by independent studies of historians, academes, by research, that would state it happened, what the effect and the outcome was. But you cannot cite any because there is none.

Again, the LDS church has many miracles in its history and we do not need a “mystic” to know who performed the miracles.

Then how would you know it came from God and not from an evil spirit? Has these claimed miracles been independently confirmed and investigated?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Catholic children, who are baptized members of Christ’s Church, certainly can and do receive inspiration from the Holy Spirit. To say young children cannot know God, intimately, is really, quite sad.

Well I suppose that’s a result of their young children not being baptized

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well I suppose that’s a result of their young children not being baptized

The graces of baptism help a child grow, in knowledge and understanding of God. Living and acting under the power of the Holy Spirit, growing in goodness.

I had never understood why Mormons think it is a good thing to withhold this from their children, until ParkerD wrote one day that Baptism does not provide these graces.

That was my thought as well, that no, a Mormon baptism would not. So of course someone who has not experienced these graces, would think they do not exist.

 

[zaffiroborant]

The graces of baptism help a child grow, in knowledge and understanding of God. Living and acting under the power of the Holy Spirit, growing in goodness.

I had never understood why Mormons think it is a good thing to withhold this from their children, until ParkerD wrote one day that Baptism does not provide these graces.

That was my thought as well, that no, a Mormon baptism would not. So of course someone who has not experienced these graces, would think they do not exist.

And they will go on with out them, not just as children, but their whole lives, never realizing what they are missing. What a sad thought.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I the Holy Ghost’s “burning in the heart” inspiration is when a parent receives an impression that they should go out of their way to do something that builds their child or comforts them, or builds or comforts a friend, or they receive a new insight as they read the Bible itself, on their own, in a quiet moment of reflection and meditation.

I find it illuminating that the LDS limit the Holy Spirit to such a narrow field of action.
And I think your implying Kathleen is neglectful was truly uncalled for.

 

[ParkerD]

I find it illuminating that the LDS limit the Holy Spirit to such a narrow field of action.
And I think your implying Kathleen is neglectful was truly uncalled for.

Z,

I’m glad for these comments–thanks.

The word “if” is not making an implication. If my daughters were married yet and had children younger than eighteen or so, then I would unhesitatingly encourage them to not spend a lot of time on the internet when they ought to be spending direct time with their children. So what if I think that’s important enough that I mentioned it? Kathleen can defend herself, explain herself, and be just fine.

Kathleen was the one who wrote that she thought the LDS place too much emphasis on using the “feelings” (which she equated to the “burning in your bosom”) to have a knowledge of truth. So evidently, since you two have written exactly the opposite view that even four-year-olds can have the Holy Spirit and receive a “burning in their bosom” about truth, then the conclusion I draw is that you are familiar with the concept, and that this kind of communication from God is “proof enough”.

That’s fine. If that is what we’re writing about, then a four-year-old could receive that if they were sincere and had prayed about truth and understood that God would not take away their free will choice.

So the two of you have refuted what Kathleen had to say about LDS and a “burning in the bosom” (it had been one of her main points), and the disagreement about its importance can be placed to rest as a misunderstanding on her part about the importance of that kind of impression from the Holy Ghost. Thanks.

JeanMichel had made the same point of refuting it. (Thanks, JeanMichel.)

 

[Big_Dummy]

Hi, BD,

You are technically correct, but the issue has to do with mortal men holding the priesthood keys on the earth, to carry out the functions and duties of that authority including presiding over other mortal men and presiding over or carrying out ordinances with the authority of the priesthood.

Translated beings are no longer “mortal”, since their bodies have been changed so they don’t age and don’t suffer pain, nor do they suffer death–so they moved into having a different stewardship wherein the works they do on the earth are done anonymously, without their stating to anyone who they are. That was part of what they were told they would do–that they would not “be known” among those they visit as preparers of the way for the full message of the gospel.

From reading the rest of the chapter, 3 Nephi 28 — it is clear that their ministry is very public and from great and marvelous work along with “mortals” joining the church their gospel was complete. Besides, the apostle John, would have the Keys because one can not bind or loose without them, Matthew 16:19, 18:18. The very act of bringing people into the church is proof enough that even they had the keys.

16But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.

17And now, whether they were mortal or immortal, from the day of their transfiguration, I know not;

18But this much I know, according to the record which hath been given—they did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.

19And they were cast into prison by them who did not belong to the church. And the aprisons could not hold them, for they were rent in twain.

20And they were cast down into the earth; but they did smite the earth with the word of God, insomuch that by his apower they were delivered out of the depths of the earth; and therefore they could not dig pits sufficient to hold them.

21And thrice they were cast into a afurnace and received no harm.

22And twice were they cast into a aden of wild beasts; and behold they did play with the beasts as a child with a suckling lamb, and received no harm.

23And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the agospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of bthat generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus.

24And now I, aMormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.

25Behold, I was about to write the anames of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

26But behold, aI have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.

27And behold they will be aamong the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.

29And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the ascattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the **convincing power of God **which is in them.

30And they are as the aangels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.

31Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the agreat and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;

32Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a agreat and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.

lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/28?lang=eng

2 Corinthians 12:12
I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles.

It is clear from their miracles that they had the keys becuase they were demonstrating the signs of an apostle like Paul speaks of.

Acts 2:43
Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.

Acts 5:12
The Apostles Heal Many ] The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade.

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

From your remarks…about possibly neglecting my children being here on the internet…again, I think I am making leeway…

In regards to neglecting my small children, I do wish they were small again, but this month my social security is coming through…

Who is ignoring who?..

 

[Big_Dummy]

Sevphen168,

They weren’t born as apostles. James the brother of John was killed early on as noted in Acts 12:2. There was no mention of any new apostle besides Matthias before Acts 12. Just because they “lived” when the Twelve lived, does not mean that those such as Paul and Barnabas could not be called as apostles at a later point in time during their life, and be a part of the Twelve as Paul implies in his writings.

unless I am mistaken, the meaning of an apostle is simply “one who is sent out”. Paul recieved his apostleship directly from Jesus on the road in Acts. We know that Jesus holds the keys in

Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

What is your take on Hebrews 7:11-28?

 

[KathleenGee]

Big Dummy,

You start posts to glean information from Catholics for other purposes known to you…