LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[GaryTaylor]

While I agree with the above post. I have to admitt ParkerDs post above “486” *, is fairly significant in thought and feeling.

But Rebecca is right, there’s something thats blocking you from grasping complete truth.

I believe you should give yourself a break from mormon and focus only on Bible, and in a very short time you’ll find truth. Put the mormon concepts down and re-read the Bible again just as it is, without outside influence, without any preconceived thinking. There’s a conflicting idealism which is making it impossible to clearly see. You have 7/8ths of the equation but missing a vital piece.

You didn’t end up here by accident. I can assure you that. Just think about it all with an open heart an mind.

My prayers are with you, Your a decent christain, I hope I didn’t offend you, thats not my intention.

God Bless, GT*

 

[SteveVH]

Scoff that there is such a thing as the voice of the Good Shepherd (see John 10:3, 4, 16, 27). Scoff that people can actually experience that reality, which is what followed my post in several comments that were made. Scoff at the idea that living the gospel brings the fruits of living the gospel–that it is some kind of “ideal world” and is outside of “human experience.” It’s not outside of human experience, and of course I realize I am a sinner and need the atoning grace of Jesus Christ, just like everyone else. That’s exactly what I meant by experiencing repentance and forgiveness on a personal basis rather than just reading about it or talking about it.

Do you really believe that hearing the voice of God is something foreign to non-Mormons? Do you really think that living the Gospel, in as much a we are capable, is not the purpose and goal of every true Christian? And as far as experiencing repentance and forgiveness on a personal basis, it doesn’t get more personal than experiencing the Sacrament of Reconciliation and on a very regular basis.

This is not some process of steps, it is the Christian life and is something that is very fluid and cohesive. We are fed by the Eucharist so that we may “go out” into the world and bring Christ to that world. We do that by living the beatitudes and keeping God’s commandments, but this is not done in stages. It should be who we are as Christians. It is a holy presence within us that makes us holy; an outpouring of grace that makes it possible to live a Christ-like life. And it is grace that washes us clean when we fail.

I will admit that I have a difficult time understanding the Mormon mindset. But it is evident that you misunderstand us as well. We are guided by the Holy Spirit, as a Church as well as individually, every day of our lives. Yes, we listen to the voice of Shepherd, and we hear His voice. He lives within us.

 

[ParkerD]

I am not sure I understand how Christ simply promising to protect his Church, even remotely implies taking away our free will.

If this can possibly be the correct interpretation, then when God supposedly told JS that all religions are an abomination and that he had to start or “restore” the church and that this restored church is the ONLY true church, then that means that our free will was taken away from us again. We all have to be Mormons in order to be able to go to heaven. Not much of free will there.

Rainman10,

I appreciate the opportunity to clarify. The Old Testament used the term “abomination” because the House of Israel had assimilated some of the practices of their neighbors, which meant they had strayed from the pure teachings of Moses. The word, although harsh-sounding, is about purity of the practices, and the eventual goal of living by the teachings whereby God can do the Shepherding.

I doubt that many people whose comments I have read while on this forum really want the kind of “heaven” (Celestial kingdom) that Joseph Smith taught about, so it still is about “free will”; and the “heaven” a person wants is the “heaven” they live for and choose by how they live, while repenting along the way of living their life (meaning they bring Christ’s atoning grace into their life).

The kind of “heaven” Joseph Smith taught about means a tremendous amount of “work” in completely unselfish ways that are about building other spirits and helping them grow, and also about active creativity, learning extensively and “faith work”. It isn’t a place of “rest” in the sense of just being there loving God. Also, the other “heavens” really are 'heavens", so free will choice places a person in the “heaven” that they had desired and lived for, and some people want a place for eternity that is less “work”.

Peace to you and all.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I will admit that I have a difficult time understanding the Mormon mindset. But it is evident that you misunderstand us as well. We are guided by the Holy Spirit, as a Church as well as individually, every day of our lives. Yes, we listen to the voice of Shepherd, and we hear His voice. He lives within us.

Well, it is very disappointing. I keep having this idea that I can relate to Mormons, in the commonality of Jesus Christ, but it isn’t possible for them. They think we are Godless, not in the sense of being atheist, but that God has left the building.

It has a certain meanness to it, of a sort that is trying to be passed off as a virtue.

 

[SteveVH]

Rainman10,

I appreciate the opportunity to clarify. The Old Testament used the term “abomination” because the House of Israel had assimilated some of the practices of their neighbors, which meant they had strayed from the pure teachings of Moses. The word, although harsh-sounding, is about purity of the practices, and the eventual goal of living by the teachings whereby God can do the Shepherding.

I doubt that many people whose comments I have read while on this forum really want the kind of “heaven” (Celestial kingdom) that Joseph Smith taught about, so it still is about “free will”; and the “heaven” a person wants is the “heaven” they live for and choose by how they live, while repenting along the way of living their life (meaning they bring Christ’s atoning grace into their life).

The kind of “heaven” Joseph Smith taught about means a tremendous amount of “work” in completely unselfish ways that are about building other spirits and helping them grow, and also about active creativity, learning extensively and “faith work”. It isn’t a place of “rest” in the sense of just being there loving God. Also, the other “heavens” really are 'heavens", so free will choice places a person in the “heaven” that they had desired and lived for, and some people want a place for eternity that is less “work”.

Peace to you and all.

The only thing we know about heaven is that we cannot conceive of what God has planned for those who love Him. It is greater than anything you can imagine, Parker, and anything we can say about it can only diminish its splendor. In any event, it cannot be the kind of heaven that Joseph Smith taught because we know that no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor mind conceived. We achieve this through a pure gift from God, through a total surrender of our lives to His, not through “tremendous amounts of work”, or extensive knowledge on our part. It is not about our goodness, Parker, it is about God’s goodness and our acceptance and response to His goodness.

Now, please do not misconstrue what I have said. Yes, it requires that we take up our cross daily and follow Him. It requires that we live by His law of love. It requires that we inform our conscience so that we may live according to His commandments. But none of this is possible without His grace and heaven is impossible to attain through our own works, no matter how good we are because we will always fall short. This is one piece of the puzzle that I believe is missing in the Mormon faith. God has been reduced to a man, like us, so much so that you believe He even has a body like us. Heaven is reduced to the parameters of man’s imagination. The truth is that both God and heaven are eternally beyond our ability to conceive. We do not choose which type of heaven in which we will live based upon how hard we are willing to work or whether or not we are fortunate enough to be married. Whether we enter heaven or hell is based upon God’s judgment, not ours.
We can only submit to His mercy and goodness through the merits of Christ, not our own.
The only real choice we have to make is whether or not to accept the gift of His love for us.

 

[ParkerD]

The only thing we know about heaven is that we cannot conceive of what God has planned for those who love Him. It is greater than anything you can imagine, Parker, and anything we can say about it can only diminish its splendor. In any event, it cannot be the kind of heaven that Joseph Smith taught because we know that no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor mind conceived. We achieve this through a pure gift from God, through a total surrender of our lives to His, not through “tremendous amounts of work”, or extensive knowledge on our part. It is not about our goodness, Parker, it is about God’s goodness and our acceptance and response to His goodness.

Now, please do not misconstrue what I have said. Yes, it requires that we take up our cross daily and follow Him. It requires that we live by His law of love. It requires that we inform our conscience so that we may live according to His commandments. But none of this is possible without His grace and heaven is impossible to attain through our own works, no matter how good we are because we will always fall short. This is one piece of the puzzle that I believe is missing in the Mormon faith. God has been reduced to a man, like us, so much so that you believe He even has a body like us. Heaven is reduced to the parameters of man’s imagination. The truth is that both God and heaven are eternally beyond our ability to conceive. We do not choose which type of heaven in which we will live based upon how hard we are willing to work or whether or not we are fortunate enough to be married. Whether we enter heaven or hell is based upon God’s judgment, not ours.
We can only submit to His mercy and goodness through the merits of Christ, not our own.
The only real choice we have to make is whether or not to accept the gift of His love for us.

SteveVH,

Maybe I didn’t make the point clear that I was talking about “work” in heaven itself, not “works” on earth to get to heaven. And I was talking about “learning extensively” in heaven itself, not the learning we do on this earth although that is very important also.

I agree that “eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor entered into the heart of man” as to what happens in heaven and how glorious it will be in the happiness and joyfulness and peace, but there is enough written about it in the book of Revelation to know that those qualities are going to be a part of the “celestial heaven”.

As far as the issue of being able to listen to the voice of the Good Shepherd and know His voice and thus do something when He beckons and instructs, that is an individual thing–not a group thing that comes about because one is or is not a member of a particular church organization–and I have been consistent in commenting about that in this forum. I think it takes heartfelt prayer, in the sense of having a conversation with Almighty God and knowing He is not only listening but He is answering and instructing through the voice of the Good Shepherd and through the Holy Spirit. Usually it involves taking action after listening.

 

[Peter_John]

I doubt that many people whose comments I have read while on this forum really want the kind of “heaven” (Celestial kingdom) that Joseph Smith taught about, so it still is about “free will”; and the “heaven” a person wants is the “heaven” they live for and choose by how they live,

I find the “kind of heaven (Celestial Kingdom) that Joseph Smith taught about” very inviting. Unfortunately, it is not the heaven Jesus taught about.

while repenting along the way of living their life (meaning they bring Christ’s atoning grace into their life).

Acts 11:18 - When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. lds.org/scriptures/nt/acts/11?lang=eng&query=grant+repent

Book of Mormon-Alma 24:10 And I also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have committed, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son. lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/24?lang=eng&query=grant+repent

Since according to both the Bible and the Book of Mormon repentance is a gift from God, (something granted) how can they repent before bringing Christ’s atoning Grace into their life?

The kind of “heaven” Joseph Smith taught about means a tremendous amount of “work” in completely unselfish ways that are about building other spirits and helping them grow, and also about active creativity, learning extensively and “faith work”. It isn’t a place of “rest” in the sense of just being there loving God. Also, the other “heavens” really are 'heavens", so free will choice places a person in the “heaven” that they had desired and lived for, and some people want a place for eternity that is less “work”.

First, I do not know if you realize that you have just called everyone who does not accept your version of heaven a lazy Christian. You have called everyone who rejest your version of heaven selfish. That is quite offensive.

Second, Real Prayer is “Faith Work”, and the hardest. Real Prayer is also total Communion with God. How does eternity spent sharing in the existence of God, in complete Communion, and Constant prayer and worship, mean a lack of “faith work”?

Some people want to believe that they can be completely in control fo their destiny even throughout eternity. Others recognize that they have no choice but Hell in eternity unless they surrender all control now. Most people do not do this all at once, but believing they will have ever more personal power and influence throughout eternity negates letting go of control now.

The Gospel is very simple: Without Christ we all go to hell, no matter what good we do. With Christ we can choose Hell or choose Heaven, and nothing we can do on our own will get us into Heaven. When God asks why he should let us in, nothing we have done will open the door. When Christ’s atonement is evoked, the door will open, and then we can talk about how we showed that we accepted His sacrifice. That is where accepting Grace first brings repentance, or in other words, improves our behavior.

 

[Peter_John]

Rainman10,
and the “heaven” a person wants is the “heaven” they live for and choose by how they live, while repenting along the way of living their life (meaning they bring Christ’s atoning grace into their life).

From the Book of Mormon:
Alma 36
16And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.
17And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.
18Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in thecgall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.
19And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

Enos
3Behold, I went to hunt beasts in the forests; and the words which I had often heard my father speak concerning eternal life, and the joy of the saints, sunk deep into my heart.
4And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens.
5And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.
6And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.
7And I said: Lord, how is it done?
8And he said unto me: Because of thy faith in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen … lds.org/scriptures/bofm/enos/1?lang=eng lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/36?lang=eng

These stories do not seem to indicate the way they lived their lives invited the atoning blood of Christ into their lives. It is worthy of note that in both of these accounts, in contexts, the individuals amended their ways after an assurance of absolution. I use this to demonstrate the inconsistency I have previously described between what the “most correct book” teaches and how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints defines its teachings.

I do not mean them as scriptures to argue the pint, as I consider them heretical fabrications. The account of Alma the Younger is a bastardization of the story of Saul of Tarsus/St. Paul. Both acounts, and indeed the whole Book of Mormon places post-Redemption style professions of faith in a pre-Advent context. This is only intended to reduce trust in the Biblical record, serious heresy on its own.

If you believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God, you have to ddeny the Bible as we have received it to be the Word of God. They cannot both be the Word of God, and apparently – though professing the Book of Mormon valid, LDS leaders do not beleive it. Despite such verses as those cited here, they teach that forgiveness can only come after amending your life.

 

[Peter_John]

All sounds very Jesuit, Catholic to me. Not where the main issues exist though, now is it?

Very astute observation. The Book of Mormon is full of Catholic teachings, and these are the things that make it appealing. A few heresies intertwined in it, such as condemnation of infant baptism, lead readers away from Catholicism. Then the Book is presented in an institutional framework hostile to the rest of Christianity, and Catholicism most of all. Then that Institution deploys teaching and rhetoric to reinterpret the meaning of the very passages that made the Book appealing in the first place.

Ultimately what it really achieves is directing the faith of a huge body of people who have a strong belief in Christ’s atonement away from the Body of Christ, and (official as of June 5, 2001 I believe) keeping them from getting validly baptized.

That is one reason it is so hard to get Mormons to really look at the historical record of Apostolic succession. They are convinced that we are deceived and only want to deceive them, whether we realize it or not. They are not afraid of going to Hell if they turn their back on Mormonism and are wrong. They are afraid that if they turn from Mormonism they could find out in the eternities they were wrong, and spend eternity in some lesser heaven (kingdom) knowing that they could have been at the top and rejected it.

Some LDS leaders in the past taught and published that the Catholic Church is the Church of the Devil prophesied in the Book of Mormon. I have talked with numnerous Mormons who believe and teach it today, even though it is inconsistent with what LDS Church manuals teach about it. The idea is not part of LDS doctrine, at least not anymore, but it remains embedded in LDS culture.

I say this with great respect for the faith that Mormons have, misplaced as I perceive it to be, I recognize that genuine faith is at its roots. I understand how and why they believe as they do, and I understand how hard it is to open themselves to other experience. I do my Mormon friends and loved ones a disservice not placing it in full perspective, and pussyfooting around the issue.

Mormons do not perceive how Christ embraced the Cross, or even see the Cross as a symbol of faith. It is, to them, a symbol of death. Our Mass just celebrates killing Christ over and over again in that perspective. They are partly right, we celebrate His willing sacrifice over and over again, and persisting in our sins drives the nails… He suffered once for all – like dying once each for everyone who ever was and ever will be. Every Mass is like one more hyperlink throughTime and Space drawing all of us to stand with Him on Calvary. Every Eucharist is part of that same Last Supper. All the Saints through all of time descend in concourses at each and every Eucharist on that same Table in the Upper Room.

They have a hard time understanding that, because they do not believe the Atonement happened on the Cross but during the Agony in the Garden. They do not recognize that He looked forward in life cherishing the imminence of Calvary. Most of all, they see the Eucharist as nothing more than a symbol.

This was intended to be a short response, but I got on a roll.

 

[ParkerD]

Since according to both the Bible and the Book of Mormon repentance is a gift from God, (something granted) how can they repent before bringing Christ’s atoning Grace into their life?

Peter had learned and understood that the Gentiles had been given the “gift” of being able to repent of their sins, unto “life” meaning both a newness of life on earth (being born again through an inward change of heart and through atoning grace) and to eternal life if they continued to repent.

The Lamanite king was grateful to know that repentance (the gift given to all men through Christ’s grace by virtue of His atoning sacrifice) was indeed possible even for their serious sins, and why shouldn’t he be grateful for this gift of grace through repentance?

First, I do not know if you realize that you have just called everyone who does not accept your version of heaven a lazy Christian.

No, I haven’t–I said some might not like the work involved in the Celestial kingdom. That doesn’t mean laziness. It means some people don’t like the idea of “work” as a part of eternal life with Heavenly Father. Some people reject the idea of becoming “like Christ” in eternity, but being “like Christ” would mean having the kind of faith He taught about having, and doing something with that faith that brings positive outcomes into the universe, through acts of “work” just like the creation of this world was “work” (Genesis 2:2, 3).

Second, Real Prayer is “Faith Work”, and the hardest. Real Prayer is also total Communion with God. How does eternity spent sharing in the existence of God, in complete Communion, and Constant prayer and worship, mean a lack of “faith work”?

See Genesis 2:2, 3. See also Matthew 17:20. Prayer and worship are good, but there are also other good things to do that honor God and give glory to Him.

…When Christ’s atonement is evoked, the door will open, and then we can talk about how we showed that we accepted His sacrifice.

Except that Christ taught all about being “doers” and not just “hearers”. See Matthew 7:21-27, Matthew 25 (entire chapter), and so forth.

Peace.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter had learned and understood that the Gentiles had been given the “gift” of being able to repent of their sins, unto “life” meaning both a newness of life on earth (being born again through an inward change of heart and through atoning grace) and to eternal life if they continued to repent.

The Lamanite king was grateful to know that repentance (the gift given to all men through Christ’s grace by virtue of His atoning sacrifice) was indeed possible even for their serious sins, and why shouldn’t he be grateful for this gift of grace through repentance?

Nothing you have said contradicts repentance as a Gift. Once again, you prefer reading into the text rather than accepting it for what it says. Regarding the reference about Lamoni,see the references I posted later on Alma the Younger and Enos.

Lamoni, by the way bastardizes accounts of Christian missionaries to the barbarians in Europe, like the Goths. At extreme risk to their lives – and often facing martyrdom until some great feat resulted in heir coming before the King. When finally getting before the King, the Holy Spirit used them to convert the King, who could command the conversion of his whole people.

The Story of the Anti-Nephi-Lehis, who had rejected arms for complete pacificsm, getting mowed down by aggressors until more aggressors convert than the fathful had fallen, appropriates accounts right out of the first three centuries of Christian History. This happened during the persecutions.

One account of a Saint talks of him going into a pagan’s (Druid’s) Sacred Grove and with one whack knocking down there hugest most sacred tree, which led them to convert. A small miracle, but I know of nothing like it in LDS Hostory to compare with Jacob’s words in the Book of Mormon, "Even the tree’s obey us … "

Such accounts reinforce our unity as the Body of Christ. Without such accounts Christianity is not complete, but if the “Restoration” theory were to hold, Mormons would not be able to draw upon these traditions. Hence, Mormons needed new traditions, and they ended up in the Book of Mormon.

Maintaining that Apostasy goes back as far as you claim means that Mormonism shares no part or parcel with the martyrdoms of all the Saints killed in the worst persecutions during Rome. You reject them as part of your heritage, yet I have heard general Conference talks refer to them as if they were not Catholic. Can’t have it both ways.

No, I haven’t–I said some might not like the work involved in the Celestial kingdom. That doesn’t mean laziness. It means some people don’t like the idea of “work” as a part of eternal life with Heavenly Father. Some people reject the idea of becoming “like Christ” in eternity, but being “like Christ” would mean having the kind of faith He taught about having, and doing something with that faith that brings positive outcomes into the universe, through acts of “work” just like the creation of this world was “work” (Genesis 2:2, 3)…

You said some might not like the work involved with being in the Celestial Kingdom, and choose a lower level of heaven. That suggests that the only reason they do not choose the Celestial Kingdom is that they are lazy. maybe they just do not believe in it. We do not know what heaven will be like, because we cannot fully comprehend the nature of God – all we know is that Christ gives us the chance to share in that nature, because the Father wants us to.

You know, Joseph Smith said you cannot worship a God you cannot understand, than later offered the King Follet Discourse as the Greatest exposition of that idea. Later John Taylor (or maybe Wilford Woodruff, but I think it was John Taylor) simplified the concept by saying “We are all gods in embryo.”

Well which is it? An embryo can no better comprehend the nature of my existence, than I can of God, and suddenly Mormnonism is back to an incomprehensible deity.

I might as well keep it simple. The concept of Trinity expands the mind more than trying to comprehend the adult state of a human from an embryo’s perspective – knowing nothing of my ultimate environment, except that a God who is supposedly omnipotent must have a God of His own to answer to somewhere, because He was a man once too, and his God was a man once too.

That is essentially what that prayer you repeat occasionally in Church says – “Do you think that you could ever/In all Eternity/Find out the genereration/when God’s began to be.”

See Genesis 2:2, 3. See also Matthew 17:20. Prayer and worship are good, but there are also other good things to do that honor God and give glory to Him.

Except that Christ taught all about being “doers” and not just “hearers”. See Matthew 7:21-27, Matthew 25 (entire chapter), and so forth.

Do not take my words out of context. I said Calling upon Christ opens the door, and then you can do. Without Christ, no matter how much you do doesn’t matter. You become a harer of the word and a doer of the word. Nothing I wrote denies that.

 

[ParkerD]

Peter John,

When the word choice becomes non-uplifting for readers and disrespectful of sincere beliefs, then I use the option that I assume was placed on the forum for this purpose.

'Take good care, and peace be yours. 'Bye.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Peter John,

When the word choice becomes non-uplifting for readers and disrespectful of sincere beliefs, then I use the option that I assume was placed on the forum for this purpose.

'Take good care, and peace be yours. 'Bye.

Is this saying Peter John is being disrespectful? If so what did he say that was disrespecting of sincere belief?

 

[ParkerD]

Is this saying Peter John is being disrespectful? If so what did he say that was disrespecting of sincere belief?

Zaffiroborant,

It was the choice to use a particular word that always not only has negative connotations, but conveys an attitude of disrespect because of the implications of the word. I don’t think I need to repeat the word. I think you can find it, and it has been used twice by Peter John. Maybe some people think it is merely a literary device, but I simply don’t.

A wish of peace and good will.

 

[lax16]

Peter John,

When the word choice becomes non-uplifting for readers and disrespectful of sincere beliefs, then I use the option that I assume was placed on the forum for this purpose.

'Take good care, and peace be yours. 'Bye.

Parker - Surely you are not unaccustomed to harsh language?
The BoM is ripe with “spicy” words - harlots, whore, fornication…

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

When the word choice becomes non-uplifting for readers and disrespectful of sincere beliefs, then I use the option that I assume was placed on the forum for this purpose.

'Take good care, and peace be yours. 'Bye.

Is anyone interested in hearing the answers to the questions I have raised? If not I will shut up.

You express that those not choosing to believe in the LDS description of the Celestial Kingdom are essentially lazy, and then accuse me of disrespecting your legitimate beliefs?

I do not know what word choice I made was disrepectful of sincere religious belief. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints affirms that the Bible in which Catholics believe is corrupt, and that the Apostle’s Creed and the Nicene Creed’s are abominations.

You affirm the existence of the Book of Mormon and its teachings evidence the Apostasy (which is the subject of this discussion). Mormons ask non-Mormons to answer the question “could any man have written this book?” regarding the Book of Mormon. I have so responded, showing how its contents are not original, are misleading, and when taken in context, not even followed by the Church propting it. I offer tha as evidence to answer, yes, a man (or men) did write this book. The Book of Mormon could be a fabrication, and it is specifically designed to keep people away from Catholicism at all cost.

The real question to answer is what evidence exists that there was any break in Apostolic succession from the Apostles to the Bishops in Christian history. With none, there is no need to even consider the Book of Mormon.

 

[Peter_John]

Zaffiroborant,

It was the choice to use a particular word that always not only has negative connotations, but conveys an attitude of disrespect because of the implications of the word. I don’t think I need to repeat the word. I think you can find it, and it has been used twice by Peter John. Maybe some people think it is merely a literary device, but I simply don’t.

Oh, my heck! I fetching misundertood. I apologize for the flipping misunderstanding, and realize you weren’t just trying to scrud out on the question.
Definition of BASTARDIZE

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bastardize
transitive verb
1 : to reduce from a higher to a lower state or condition : debase

2 : to declare or prove to be a bastard

**3 ****: to modify especially by introducing discordant or disparate elements **

---

I think I chose the perfect word for my argument. The next closest word would have been “perversion”, appropriation, which I used later does not quite include all aspects of the intended meaning.

The story of Lamoni modifies accounts of Catholic missionaries to Europe,introducing not only disparate elements, but specifically discordant elements, as they are intended to divert people from the actual religions of those original missionaries.

In a similar way you replace Mary’s place in Heaven with Joseph Smith. You affirm it as scripture that Joseph Smith has done more than anyone except Jesus for man’s Salvation, as if bringing Him into the world someohow matters less. You frequently pray in your Sacrament meetings:

“Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven.
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with god’s he can plan for his brethren.
Death cannot conquer the hero again.”

But yet for some reason praying a “Hail Mary” is heretical.

As these practices are so similar in concept, I can affirm that yours exploit the existence of ours, as ours were there first. The burden of proof is not to prove which of our teachings is more consistent with the Bible. The burden is to prove that Apostolic succession through the Church Fathers ended – that somewhere the Bishops broke from the practices of those earlier Bishops who were in communion with the Apostles.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

Maybe I didn’t make the point clear that I was talking about “work” in heaven itself, not “works” on earth to get to heaven. And I was talking about “learning extensively” in heaven itself, not the learning we do on this earth although that is very important also.

I agree that “eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor entered into the heart of man” as to what happens in heaven and how glorious it will be in the happiness and joyfulness and peace, but there is enough written about it in the book of Revelation to know that those qualities are going to be a part of the “celestial heaven”.

As far as the issue of being able to listen to the voice of the Good Shepherd and know His voice and thus do something when He beckons and instructs, that is an individual thing–not a group thing that comes about because one is or is not a member of a particular church organization–and I have been consistent in commenting about that in this forum. I think it takes heartfelt prayer, in the sense of having a conversation with Almighty God and knowing He is not only listening but He is answering and instructing through the voice of the Good Shepherd and through the Holy Spirit. Usually it involves taking action after listening.

Revelation quite clearly charactarizes heaven as a wedding feast which harkens back to the Catholic Mass and the Eucharist; an intimate union with Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom.

The voice of God, the Good Shepherd, leads His Church, the Body of Christ. It leads us individually as well as we are members of this one Body. This is the experience of being Catholic. The Church is God’s presence on earth because He dwells within it, guides us, feeds us, forgives us and sanctifies us. Through His Eucharistic presence He dwells within us individually, leads us and speaks to us. You have never experienced the Eucharist so you cannot know this. The bottom line is that priesthood authority has never left the Church that Christ founded upon Peter. It is alive and well because Jesus is alive and well and truly present in the Catholic Church. It is His authority because He is our high priest and all priestly authority flows from Him. Nothing man could do could ever take this away from His Church.

 

[Peter_John]

Revelation quite clearly charactarizes heaven as a wedding feast which harkens back to the Catholic Mass and the Eucharist; an intimate union with Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom.

The voice of God, the Good Shepherd, leads His Church, the Body of Christ. It leads us individually as well as we are members of this one Body. This is the experience of being Catholic. The Church is God’s presence on earth because He dwells within it, guides us, feeds us, forgives us and sanctifies us. Through His Eucharistic presence He dwells within us individually, leads us and speaks to us. You have never experienced the Eucharist so you cannot know this. The bottom line is that priesthood authority has never left the Church that Christ founded upon Peter. It is alive and well because Jesus is alive and well and truly present in the Catholic Church. It is His authority because He is our high priest and all priestly authority flows from Him. Nothing man could do could ever take this away from His Church.

Awesome! Well put!

 

[SteveVH]

Oh, my heck! I fetching misundertood. I apologize for the flipping misunderstanding, and realize you weren’t just trying to scrud out on the question.
Definition of BASTARDIZE

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bastardize
transitive verb
1 : to reduce from a higher to a lower state or condition : debase

2 : to declare or prove to be a bastard

**3 ****: to modify especially by introducing discordant or disparate elements **

---

I think I chose the perfect word for my argument. The next closest word would have been “perversion”, appropriation, which I used later does not quite include all aspects of the intended meaning.

The story of Lamoni modifies accounts of Catholic missionaries to Europe,introducing not only disparate elements, but specifically discordant elements, as they are intended to divert people from the actual religions of those original missionaries.

In a similar way you replace Mary’s place in Heaven with Joseph Smith. You affirm it as scripture that Joseph Smith has done more than anyone except Jesus for man’s Salvation, as if bringing Him into the world someohow matters less. You frequently pray in your Sacrament meetings:

“Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven.
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with god’s he can plan for his brethren.
Death cannot conquer the hero again.”

But yet for some reason praying a “Hail Mary” is heretical.

As these practices are so similar in concept, I can affirm that yours exploit the existence of ours, as ours were there first. The burden of proof is not to prove which of our teachings is more consistent with the Bible. The burden is to prove that Apostolic succession through the Church Fathers ended – that somewhere the Bishops broke from the practices of those earlier Bishops who were in communion with the Apostles.

And don’t I feel like the fool. I looked and couldn’t figure out which word was causing all the commotion. I thought the word was quite appropriate. I don’t think it was your use of the word “bastardize”, it was that your point was hitting a little too close to home.