LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[lax16]

Lax16,

I suppose that I need to clarify a bit more.

The word I disagreed with was “brother” in regards to the relationship between Jehovah and Lucifer. The reason I disagree is that no LDS scriptural source uses that word to describe their relationship, and whenever I have heard the use of the word to describe that relationship, it has not felt spiritually correct to me to describe it using the word “brother” that the scriptures don’t use. In other words, I have not had a confirming witness that the word “brother” is a correct term to use.

As far as the impact of the difference, I see no difference in impact on whether an LDS member believes the words “spirit brother” are correct in replacing the words “son of the morning”, or not. But I’m comfortable sticking with the impression that what I am going to regard as doctrine is going to be found in either the LDS standard works (scriptures) or in messages presented by the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles, in written communication. I personally consider that there is a safeguard in doing this, but others can think otherwise and that’s fine with me.

From Gospel Principles
A Savior and Leader Was Needed

When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7).

We understood that we would have to leave our heavenly home for a time. We would not live in the presence of our heavenly parents. While we were away from them, all of us would sin and some of us would lose our way. Our Heavenly Father knew and loved each one of us. He knew we would need help, so he planned a way to help us.

We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27).

Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give his life for us, and take upon himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever” (Moses 4:2).

Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvatio

 

[Peter_John]

More semantics. You believe manythings in addition to what the Bible teaches, and that these inform as to what the Bible is supposed to teach.

Perhaps i am too harsh. My grandfather preferred interpreting the Word of Wisdom for exactly what it said, rather than going for interpretations of LDS leaders – I did not agree with him, but I was a different generation.

 

[Peter_John]

From Gospel Principles
A Savior and Leader Was Needed

When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7).

We understood that we would have to leave our heavenly home for a time. We would not live in the presence of our heavenly parents. While we were away from them, all of us would sin and some of us would lose our way. Our Heavenly Father knew and loved each one of us. He knew we would need help, so he planned a way to help us.

We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27).

Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give his life for us, and take upon himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever” (Moses 4:2).

Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvatio

1. Last I knew this was the official manual for new members.
2. Note that it never specifically states that Satan was the other brother.

 

[ParkerD]

From Gospel Principles
A Savior and Leader Was Needed

When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7).

We understood that we would have to leave our heavenly home for a time. We would not live in the presence of our heavenly parents. While we were away from them, all of us would sin and some of us would lose our way. Our Heavenly Father knew and loved each one of us. He knew we would need help, so he planned a way to help us.

We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27).

Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give his life for us, and take upon himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever” (Moses 4:2).

Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvatio

Lax16,

I had been going to “let it go”, but I suppose you might as well know that the current Gospel Principles Manual was updated last year, and has a change in that the sentence you highlighted has been deleted:

"When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the premortal spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7).

We understood that we would have to leave our heavenly home for a time. We would not live in the presence of our Heavenly Father. While we were away from Him, all of us would sin and some of us would lose our way. Our Heavenly Father knew and loved each one of us. He knew we would need help, so He planned a way to help us.

We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Jesus Christ, who was called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27; see also Moses 4:1–4).

Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give His life for us, and take upon Himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever” (Moses 4:2).

Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us."

Peace.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

I had been going to “let it go”, but I suppose you might as well know that the current Gospel Principles Manual was updated last year, and has a change in that the sentence you highlighted has been deleted:

"When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the premortal spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7).

We understood that we would have to leave our heavenly home for a time. We would not live in the presence of our Heavenly Father. While we were away from Him, all of us would sin and some of us would lose our way. Our Heavenly Father knew and loved each one of us. He knew we would need help, so He planned a way to help us.

We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Jesus Christ, who was called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27; see also Moses 4:1–4).

Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give His life for us, and take upon Himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever” (Moses 4:2).

Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us."

Peace.

Hi Parker - Luckily I keep all of the “old” LDS teachings. They are being deleted so quickly it is obvious the people put in charge of updating the LDS image have been very busy indeed!

I am sure they read these posts to find what to delete next.

 

[lax16]

1. Last I knew this was the official manual for new members.
2. Note that it never specifically states that Satan was the other brother.

Somehow I knew you were going to say that.
Obviously it states “two brothers” then goes on to say Jesus said “Here I am” then “Lucifer also came”. I guess I don’t need to be spoon fed - I am good at connecting dots.

From Gospel Principles
A Savior and Leader Was Needed

When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7).

We understood that we would have to leave our heavenly home for a time. We would not live in the presence of our heavenly parents. While we were away from them, all of us would sin and some of us would lose our way. Our Heavenly Father knew and loved each one of us. He knew we would need help, so he planned a way to help us.

We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27).

Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give his life for us, and take upon himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever” (Moses 4:2).

Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvatio

 

[SteveVH]

Lax16,

I had been going to “let it go”, but I suppose you might as well know that the current Gospel Principles Manual was updated last year, and has a change in that the sentence you highlighted has been deleted:

This is absolutely amazing. Talk about a moving target. It makes me so happy to belong to a Church in which I don’t have to be updated on what to believe next.

 

[ADouglass]

ADouglass,

I have heard such a misconception as you expressed about the adversary once before in my life, but have never heard where in the world anyone picked that up as an LDS belief. If you come back, could you share the source of your misinformation?

By the way, by your first point we all should know everything perfectly, and not “see through a glass darkly”–so that if anyone rebelled it would be obvious that they were rebelling. But then we come to the important understanding that God really does love each of us infinitely and magnificently, and wants only to “help us” and not “hurt us”, and knows the consequences of disobedience. The greater the knowledge, the greater the potential suffering for disobedience.

This is why knowledge of spiritual things in this life is conditioned on a person’s seeking that knowledge, rather than being placed into a position of “knowing everything” and thus being greatly condemned if they sin against what they know.

Peace to you.

Never heard where in the world someone picked that up as an lds belief huh? You are part of the lds church based in Utah right, with Monson as the “prophet”? Here is my source: lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-4-freedom-to-choose?lang=eng

And here is the quote: Agency was one of the principal issues to arise in the premortal Council in Heaven. It was one of the main causes of the conflict between the followers of Christ and the followers of Satan. Satan said, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). In saying this, he “rebelled against [God] and sought to destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3). His offer was rejected, and he was cast out of heaven with his followers (see D&C 29:36–37).

My mind is made up about you. You are either a deceiver on purpose, or you aren’t actually lds.

 

[zaffiroborant]

He is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, and was the Only Begotten of the Father in the premortal realm where we all knew Him as the Father’s Only Begotten, and as God the Son who was perfect there just as He was perfect living on the earth. We are the spirit children of God in a different way than the way that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son. I have never seen it specifically taught that the belief you mentioned about Lucifer is correct. Lucifer became a fallen angel through his rebellion, but I don’t consider him a spirit brother, nor Christ’s spirit brother. He always deceives in everything he says or does.

How “in a different way”? You are the first LDS I’ve seen say this. Could you provide something to expand on this from official church sources?

 

[ParkerD]

Never heard where in the world someone picked that up as an lds belief huh? You are part of the lds church based in Utah right, with Monson as the “prophet”? Here is my source: lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-4-freedom-to-choose?lang=eng

And here is the quote: Agency was one of the principal issues to arise in the premortal Council in Heaven. It was one of the main causes of the conflict between the followers of Christ and the followers of Satan. Satan said, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). In saying this, he “rebelled against [God] and sought to destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3). His offer was rejected, and he was cast out of heaven with his followers (see D&C 29:36–37).

My mind is made up about you. You are either a deceiver on purpose, or you aren’t actually lds.

ADouglass,

It’s OK that you don’t think I’m LDS–that doesn’t impact my life one whit.

What I had seen in your post was the idea that Lucifer was the “second born”, which would mean he was “born” as the second son and that Jesus was the Firstborn. That is the idea that I remarked I would like to see the source of. (Maybe you picked up that idea from the words “I will send the first. And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate;” But that was not talking about when they first became spirits.)

But, hey, you’re OK–take care. Peace.

 

[ADouglass]

ADouglass,

It’s OK that you don’t think I’m LDS–that doesn’t impact my life one whit.

What I had seen in your post was the idea that Lucifer was the “second born”, which would mean he was “born” as the second son and that Jesus was the Firstborn. That is the idea that I remarked I would like to see the source of.

But, hey, you’re OK–take care. Peace.

Okay, even if Lucifer isn’t the second born in the spirit world, that doesn’t make my point any less valid. Btw, I got that info from a mormon teacher when we were going through the gospel principles class. I thought it was in the manual itself, but I have yet to be able to verify. The point is this: 25And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son.

Tell me, do you think Lucifer didn’t reject God, and that Lucifer didn’t know who God was? Why would God cast Lucifer and 1/3 of God’s spirit children out of heaven, if God thought anything other than that they knew what they were doing?

 

[ParkerD]

…despite the fact that this is “clear and unequivocal” LDS doctrine, that means you have a clear witness from the Holy Spirit that this one doctrine is not true – whatever the LDS leaders say. Doesn’t that suggest something the Holy Spirit is telling you about the Church as a whole?

…

Peter John,

A quick note:

I thought I was making the point that there is one word we have talked about that I have not received a spiritual confirmation about its use. This does not mean I have received a spiritual confirmation that it is incorrect–I have said it is not from the scriptures, and I have felt there is something we don’t know about the whole subject, that I assume we will eventually know.

As far as the Holy Ghost in my life, what you need to understand if trying to understand my perspective, is that I will not be Pharisaical in quibbling about a word, and thus “make a man an offender for a word”. I have remarked before in this forum, when someone becomes confused about where I am coming from with a comment, that if I went against the light and knowledge I have received, then because of what I know by the perfect witness of the Holy Ghost, I would be sinning against that light, and of course that is a silly position for me to place myself in. Further, the joy and fruits of the gospel would be out the window, so why in the world anyone would think I would do that to myself (for what?) means they don’t understand about gospel fruits and gospel joy.

I am fine that changes in the Gospel Principles manual were seen as needful. The gospel is most strongly and successfully taught by referring closely to the scriptures, and I think the LDS committees developing manuals have realized this more fully over the last fifteen years.

Peace to you and all.

 

[ParkerD]

Okay, even if Lucifer isn’t the second born in the spirit world, that doesn’t make my point any less valid. Btw, I got that info from a mormon teacher when we were going through the gospel principles class. I thought it was in the manual itself, but I have yet to be able to verify. The point is this: 25And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son.

Tell me, do you think Lucifer didn’t reject God, and that Lucifer didn’t know who God was? Why would God cast Lucifer and 1/3 of God’s spirit children out of heaven, if God thought anything other than that they knew what they were doing?

Hi, ADouglass,

(By the way, my first name is Douglas, really and truly. That’s how I came up with “ParkerD”.)

Lucifer rejected God in the midst of living in His presence, as did the other fallen angels or fallen spirits who followed him. They knew His love, and His light. They had sufficient understanding about the choice which was presented to them, that their choice at that time was a “knowledgeable choice.” But what it seems they didn’t understand was that by rebelling and by being cast out of heaven and cast to this earth, they were going to propel God’s plan by being the very opposition that brings a test to our spirits and thus gives us the opportunity to grow. Lucifer can be said to be the most short-sighted and self-gloried spirit ever to have come into existence. I feel sorry for the spirits that followed him, but I don’t feel a whit sorry for him, nor do I consider him in any sense a “brother”. He got what was coming to him, and will get a worse condition later that is horrendous to contemplate. He lives in total and complete rebellion against anything that is good.

Best to talk about the light of Christ, and what He offers to the world. Best to understand how loving and unselfish His choice to offer Himself as the sinless sacrifice for us, really was. Best to let Him lift us and help us, individually and personally.

 

[ADouglass]

Hi, ADouglass,

(By the way, my first name is Douglas, really and truly. That’s how I came up with “ParkerD”.)

Lucifer rejected God in the midst of living in His presence, as did the other fallen angels or fallen spirits who followed him. They knew His love, and His light. They had sufficient understanding about the choice which was presented to them, that their choice at that time was a “knowledgeable choice.” But what it seems they didn’t understand was that by rebelling and by being cast out of heaven and cast to this earth, they were going to propel God’s plan by being the very opposition that brings a test to our spirits and thus gives us the opportunity to grow. Lucifer can be said to be the most short-sighted and self-gloried spirit ever to have come into existence. I feel sorry for the spirits that followed him, but I don’t feel a whit sorry for him, nor do I consider him in any sense a “brother”. He got what was coming to him, and will get a worse condition later that is horrendous to contemplate. He lives in total and complete rebellion against anything that is good.

Best to talk about the light of Christ, and what He offers to the world. Best to understand how loving and unselfish His choice to offer Himself as the sinless sacrifice for us, really was. Best to let Him lift us and help us, individually and personally.

So we are in agreement that it is possible to reject God, while knowing the Truth?

 

[ParkerD]

So we are in agreement that it is possible to reject God, while knowing the Truth?

ADouglass,

It is possible to “know the truth” with the intellect and yet to reject the truth with the spirit if the spirit does not love the truth. Lucifer had not experienced love other than being loved, nor light other than seeing light, so he did not “know” those conditions with his spirit. His intelligence rejected light and love, by his choice. We didn’t make that same choice–not anyone who followed Christ. We trusted Christ–Lucifer didn’t. We shouted for joy with hearing about the plan of salvation. Lucifer rejected the plan, and rebelled against it.

So there is “knowing” in the sense of the intellect, and there is “knowing” in the sense of spiritual knowledge and experiential knowledge, and those latter were what Lucifer completely lacked and rebelled against the opportunity of coming to understand and “know.”

 

[ADouglass]

ADouglass,

It is possible to “know the truth” with the intellect and yet to reject the truth with the spirit if the spirit does not love the truth. Lucifer had not experienced love other than being loved, nor light other than seeing light, so he did not “know” those conditions with his spirit. His intelligence rejected light and love, by his choice. We didn’t make that same choice–not anyone who followed Christ. We trusted Christ–Lucifer didn’t. We shouted for joy with hearing about the plan of salvation. Lucifer rejected the plan, and rebelled against it.

So there is “knowing” in the sense of the intellect, and there is “knowing” in the sense of spiritual knowledge and experiential knowledge, and those latter were what Lucifer completely lacked and rebelled against the opportunity of coming to understand and “know.”

I’m glad you wrote this, because it contradicts what you said earlier:

From ParkerD: “They are all found in the Bible, but God also preserves free will choice so the Bible doesn’t come right out and say “there will be a second witness of Christ that will be in the hands of Ephraim and will join with the witness of Christ in the hands of Judah and they will be one in mine hand” to bring to the “deaf” the “words of the book.””

So, it would have been okay if the Bible said “there will be a second witness of Christ that will be in the hands of Ephraim and will join with the witness of Christ in the hands of Judah and they will be on in mine hand” because we could come to the truth with our “intellect” yet still our soul could choose otherwise.

 

[ParkerD]

I’m glad you wrote this, because it contradicts what you said earlier:

From ParkerD: “They are all found in the Bible, but God also preserves free will choice so the Bible doesn’t come right out and say “there will be a second witness of Christ that will be in the hands of Ephraim and will join with the witness of Christ in the hands of Judah and they will be one in mine hand” to bring to the “deaf” the “words of the book.””

So, it would have been okay if the Bible said “there will be a second witness of Christ that will be in the hands of Ephraim and will join with the witness of Christ in the hands of Judah and they will be on in mine hand” because we could come to the truth with our “intellect” yet still our soul could choose otherwise.

ADouglass,

Yes our soul could choose otherwise, but my point earlier was that God does not place us into these conditions of choice to “condemn us.” He places us in these conditions so we can learn by experience and by making choices, and by having the opportunity to grow in knowledge and make more choices in a step by step process–greater light, more choices, greater light, more choices, up a ladder so to speak.

I’ll give you an analogy that I had thought about days ago.

Students in a Calculus class are not learning the same things that students in first grade math are learning, nor would they be interested in repeating first grade math. Students in the Calculus class are going to be there by choice, usually, and have demonstrated that they could handle algebra and geometry and first grade math. Heavenly Father is interested in our learning “spiritual Calculus”, but only if we are interested and willing to live by the principles that learning this would entail. Otherwise, He has created a situation where we aren’t condemned by our “not knowing” that there is even such a thing as Calculus. To sin against knowledge, or to be placed into a class we were not equipped by our preparation to “handle”, is not where God wants us to be, because He loves us and understands how our growth can prepare us for more spiritual knowledge than we would have previously been ready for.

Christ is at the very center of all of that growth, if we let Him. But He won’t force it on us.

 

[Peter_John]

I have felt there is something we don’t know about the whole subject, that I assume we will eventually know.

As I said, D., you put it on a shelf that gets continually more top heavy.

As far as the Holy Ghost in my life, what you need to understand if trying to understand my perspective, is that I will not be Pharisaical in quibbling about a word, and thus “make a man an offender for a word”.

Not even the “B” word? You are not going to strain at gnats over whether or not “only son” and “only begotten son” are the same thing?

Those goads get to hurting the soles of your feet after awhile.
I really do understand your perspective.

I hope that someday you will understand how much I have come to appreciate you after the insights that led to my last long post.

Remember that the angels told His first worshippers they would find Him in a feeding trough – literally.

 

[Peter_John]

I’ll give you an analogy that I had thought about days ago.

Students in a Calculus class are not learning the same things that students in first grade math are learning, nor would they be interested in repeating first grade math. Students in the Calculus class are going to be there by choice, usually, and have demonstrated that they could handle algebra and geometry and first grade math. Heavenly Father is interested in our learning “spiritual Calculus”, but only if we are interested and willing to live by the principles that learning this would entail. Otherwise, He has created a situation where we aren’t condemned by our “not knowing” that there is even such a thing as Calculus. To sin against knowledge, or to be placed into a class we were not equipped by our preparation to “handle”, is not where God wants us to be, because He loves us and understands how our growth can prepare us for more spiritual knowledge than we would have previously been ready for.

Christ is at the very center of all of that growth, if we let Him. But He won’t force it on us.

It seems less judgmental anaology to say that if He is in let’s say Salt Lake, and wants to offer directions to find Him, the directions to someone in Los Amgeles and Someone in Detroit will both take them in different directions. They will seem completely contradictory.

The problem comes up if you are so committed to a road that you neglect the destination. sometime you will have to find an exit ramp, and if you have only ever known one road, it can be scary to take that exit.

 

[ParkerD]

As I said, D., you put it on a shelf that gets continually more top heavy.

Not even the “B” word? You are not going to strain at gnats over whether or not “only son” and “only begotten son” are the same thing?

Those goads get to hurting the soles of your feet after awhile.
I really do understand your perspective.

I hope that someday you will understand how much I have come to appreciate you after the insights that led to my last long post.

Remember that the angels told His first worshippers they would find Him in a feeding trough – literally.

No, Peter John,

I don’t even have a “shelf”. You still don’t get it. I understand how the Holy Ghost confirms truths, and that in the first place, I may just not be being told a particular witness about that–which is fine; or in the second place, we are allowed to draw conclusions such as the one that is easily drawn but that I don’t draw about the use of the word “spirit brother” in regards to Lucifer. I don’t feel obligated, since it’s not in the scriptures in that way. I don’t feel compelled. It’s just not important to me one way or the other–an unimportant issue. People lacking knowledge want to make it an issue. Of the thousands of issues to deal with in life and grow in knowledge about, that is not even on the list at all, as far as I’m concerned.

But if you want to feel justified, go ahead, that’s fine. Consider it done.