LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[ParkerD]

Yes, I think everyone would agree that a personal relationship with God is very important, but you didn’t acquire your belief system by sitting on a mountain top communing with God…
No disappointment. Thanks for answering my post. Have a good night.

SteveVH,

On the contrary, I have the kind of relationship with God that I have been describing, and it is not “acquired” from a church or an upbringing. It is obtained by going through the steps Christ taught, and it becomes one to one with “communing with God” being what gives this vitality and delightful trust, joy and gratitude.

 

[Peter_John]

CHRISIAN MARTYRS
So what was it. Either the authority had been removed from the Earth, and the Christians who were killed for their beliefs were really apsotates anyway, just accused of being Christian, and died for a lie

OR

They really were Christians, in which case there could not have yet been an apostasy.

BTW Option 2 moves the dat for the apostasy being complete as far forward as the fourth centurt, since that was when the worst persecutions happen.

Will I have an answer to this, or will LDS respondents just let it skip by, as so many of my other questions on matters of substance?

 

[ParkerD]

Then you have to agree with one of these two statements:

1. The LDS Church teaches that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers in the pre-Earth life, what ever it chooses to put in the manuals, and you accept this teaching.
   OR
   2)The LDS Church teaches that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers in the pre-Earth life, what ever it chooses to put in the manuals, and you reject this teaching.

OR
3) An LDS lesson manual has been changed to reflect a more careful reading and adhering to the wording of the scriptures on the subject of the relationship between the Savior and Lucifer, and thus no longer teaches in that manual that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers in the pre-Earth life. I accept this change in the manual. I need not live in the past over this issue.

I choose #3.

 

[ParkerD]

CHRISIAN MARTYRS
So what was it. Either the authority had been removed from the Earth, and the Christians who were killed for their beliefs were really apsotates anyway, just accused of being Christian, and died for a lie

OR

They really were Christians, in which case there could not have yet been an apostasy.

BTW Option 2 moves the dat for the apostasy being complete as far forward as the fourth centurt, since that was when the worst persecutions happen.

Will I have an answer to this, or will LDS respondents just let it skip by, as so many of my other questions on matters of substance?

Peter John,
You don’t seem to understand that people could have varying degrees of faith, love, devotion even to the point of dying for their beliefs, and yet the leaders could have lost the authority that would eventually be necessary for all the ordinances to be valid in behalf of the individual members–even those killed for their beliefs. Those necessary ordinances will be done in their behalf, and they will have every opportunity for accepting them as having been done validly. Their devotion will be rewarded in exactly the same way–not a dime’s bit of difference in eternity.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

On the contrary, I have the kind of relationship with God that I have been describing, and it is not “acquired” from a church or an upbringing. It is obtained by going through the steps Christ taught, and it becomes one to one with “communing with God” being what gives this vitality and delightful trust, joy and gratitude.

So the teachings found in Mormon documents have had no bearing on your beliefs? You formulated your ideas of eternal marriage, exaltation, etc. all on your own?

I also have a close, personal relationship with God. But having a relationship with God means that I have a relationship with His Church as well as my private moments with Him.
He gave me His Church to teach me and to provide an even deeper relationship with him through His sacraments. My personal relationship with Him is extremely important, but it is not just about Him and me. I am part of a sacred Body, the Body of Christ. So I gather with others and fall on my knees and worship him, both personally and with Catholics in my parish and all over the world, as well as with those in heaven. It is a beautiful thing.

 

[Peter_John]

There is no credibility loss when the key communication relationship is between the individual and the Good Shepherd, and He is interested in purging to find His sheep who are wanting to listen and willing to follow His voice, leading to growth, change, peace, and joy in the journey.

you left out feeding His sheep. If you do not eat his flesh he cannot help you. If you eat a symbol of it, that does not count.

You know, when i was a kid I used to be told that people of other faiths when presented with the logic of LDS doctrine could only respond by saying things like “I have Christ within me,”

You are beginning to sound like a broken record, avoiding questions, reponding with answers that do not even agree with the LDS position. When you attend church, and they pass …

Aren’t you tired of living off bread and water, surviving like a prisoner all the time?
Please come to a mass, get a blessing m and wait for Jesus to turn that water into wine.

Jesus turned water into wine, and Mormons turned it back.

It is all about the Eucharist. Without it, you do not have Christ. If you do not undertand that, your words echo empty before Catholics when you talk about a personal relationship with Christ. You do not get a more intimate relationship than that. He says that if we want to live we have to eat his body and his blood, and it cannot be a symbol, and that is what we believe we are doiing.

Everything in protestantism is to diminish that. You want to convinve me how much Jesus matters to you, don’t tell me how much you read the Bible, or how much you disagree with what your church teaches – because your church is not about reading the bible anyway. You even teach five year-olds to sing “Follow the Prophet, He knows the way.” Not , "Just as I am without one ple but that thy blood was shed for me … " The LDS plea is how much has been done, and how purely you have lived your life, and how many rules you have followed – and if you have broken even one of them you have no plea at all.

Convince me that the personal relationship with Christ is what matters with you by praying with the saints before the altar of the crucifixion. Join Mary and Joseph, the Apostles, and all that have ever lived and loved Christ since – and still do --in celebrating the sacrifice he lived for. Their statues are not there as objects of worship. There statues are there as witnesses that we know they live in Him.

Walk to that feeding trough – that manger – in procession, and cross your hands on your chest, and bow your head to acknowledge you are not yet ready for the manna from heaven and let the Priest put his hand on you and bless you – and I promise you if you do it sincerely, truly opening yourself to the experience, you will never see Mormnonism the same again,

DO you have a personal revelation of Christ, a personal relationship with Christ, to compare to that? Or do you have any idea what I’m talking about?

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,
You don’t seem to understand that people could have varying degrees of faith, love, devotion even to the point of dying for their beliefs, and yet the leaders could have lost the authority that would eventually be necessary for all the ordinances to be valid in behalf of the individual members–even those killed for their beliefs. Those necessary ordinances will be done in their behalf, and they will have every opportunity for accepting them as having been done validly. Their devotion will be rewarded in exactly the same way–not a dime’s bit of difference in eternity.

You are talking about the Christian heresy of proxy baptism on behalf of the dead.

So you are saying that even though they died in the most painful and tortuous ways for their testimonies of Christ, they could not get into heaven until after the gospel was restored nearly 2,000 years later, and after that when a temple was built, and after that when their records were recovered, and someone else could enter the waters of baptism in their names – which might not be until after the Second Coming, and a whole lot of others get resurrected first so we can get all the details regarding records that have been lost.

Where is that in the Bible?

I like the way we do it as Catholics better, and figure that their bloodshed is baptism on its own.

Simple version: If they believed a corrupted version of Christianity, they did not believe true Christianity, and therefore could not have been true Christian martyrs to begin with. We know what the Christian martyrs beleived and how they practiceed their faith, because it was the evidence used to convict them. They were not just arbitrarily rounded up. There had to be evidence, and that included things like the way they practiced mass, and having symbols of Christianity that Mormonism rejects.

The Chritian martyrs were not Mormons. They did not believe what Mormons believe. There are no historical records of any particular group believing all the things Mormonism teaches that early Christianity taught. The only way you can make the Bible look like it was taught that way in the Bible is to change the words in the Bible itself, as Joseph Smith did.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,
You don’t seem to understand that people could have varying degrees of faith, love, devotion even to the point of dying for their beliefs, and yet the leaders could have lost the authority that would eventually be necessary for all the ordinances to be valid in behalf of the individual members–even those killed for their beliefs. Those necessary ordinances will be done in their behalf, and they will have every opportunity for accepting them as having been done validly. Their devotion will be rewarded in exactly the same way–not a dime’s bit of difference in eternity.

But to make it simpler: If authority was gone, Mormons have no heritage in theri suffereing. If the authority was there, and they practiced something diofferent, Mormons have no heritage in their suffering.

If the authority was not taken away, no work needs to be done for them: So when was the authority taken away?

 

[Peter_John]

OR
3) An LDS lesson manual has been changed to reflect a more careful reading and adhering to the wording of the scriptures on the subject of the relationship between the Savior and Lucifer, and thus no longer teaches in that manual that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers in the pre-Earth life. I accept this change in the manual. I need not live in the past over this issue.

I choose #3.

So that means that the true Church of Christ has been misleading its followers for more than a century and a half?

 

[zaffiroborant]

One way that process is accomplished is to find who among men and women are interested in having semantic tug-of-wars, versus who are interested in listening to the quiet, comforting, assuring voice of the Good Shepherd. I am not interested in having semantic tug-of-wars.

.

And lo, you have participated in many a “semantic tug-of-war” such that it is not possible to take this assertion of disinterest seriously.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

Not for me, no. I don’t rely on manuals for my doctrinal foundation. That has been the point I have been trying to make. Lesson manuals are important, providing guidance for teachers, but every LDS teacher is instructed to seek the Spirit and to search the scriptures as they prepare their lessons, and to have uplifting class discussions that lead class members to also search the scriptures and seek the Spirit in their lives, day by day–and also to seek unity and not create an atmosphere of dissension and disunity.

If I had been teaching that lesson (which I did a few years ago, by the way, with the old manual, but prepared mostly using the scriptural sources and had discussion centered in the scriptures, and hadn’t remembered reading that sentence and may have skimmed over it), then I would have not used the word “brothers” because it wasn’t in the scriptures. That is how I approach teaching the gospel. My interest is in people getting the Spirit into their lives, through loving the scriptures as their doctrinal guide.

So are there any LDS doctrines that are not relative, that are not subject to some cultural exceptions? Are there any doctrines that if one observed the Church exercising in a realtive manner you would feel someone justified in rejecting the Church over?

 

[menofstjoseph]

It’s OK–to each their own.

Parker,
I really want to commend you. I can only imagine how hard its been for you to constantly be in the hot box. However, i am confused by one thing: this diactomy between your commitment of faith needed to make this “mission trip” into this den of CAFers and your seemingly consistanly cavalier “I’m OK your OK” responces.

We can’t all be right. Speak up. Tell us how wrong we are if you feel that way. Your Truth and my Truth cant both be right. One cancels out the other. if I was talking to someone I believed to be aborant to my Faith it would be my duty to tell them so.

You are due my respect, my brother, but Ithink Mormonism is way off. It’s a religion based off one man’s uncorroborated Scifi tale. No doubt there is truth in the LDS. And many of it’s followers are dedicated, loving, sincere people. But having some truth is simply not enough. There is truth in the tales of Jules Verne and Gene Roddenberry, and they had their dedicated fans as well, but none of those facts give them The Truth,

There is only one Truth, and on this Earth the keys to that Truth were given to Peter. And he was promised by the ONLY Son of God, Jesus Christ, that it would not fail. Period. End of tale.

So please forgive me if I don’t end with an I’m OK your OK type sign off. However I do love you my brother and do wish you would openly explore His True Church.

You would make one heck of a Catholic.

 

[menofstjoseph]

Men of St Joseph,

This is “attributed to the LDS” often, but I have never seen it taught directly, and I personally don’t believe it to be true. Lucifer always deceives, and mocks Jesus.

The lost tribes of Israel and the Jews were all to be scattered throughout the world, according to Old Testament prophecy–all to fulfill God’s purposes and His promise to Abraham that through his seed “all the earth would be blessed.”

So, part of one or more descendants of Israel were in America anciently, yes. Joseph’s “branches” “run over the wall” (the ocean). (See Genesis and the blessing on the head of Joseph.) “Joseph is a fruitful bough.”

No, he that overcometh shall “inherit all things”, and will be given “power over the nations” in righteousness and love. (See Revelation 2:26, Revelation 21:7)
LDS belief is that all mankind are children of God, and lived with Him in a premortal world where we also knew Jesus as the Only Begotten Son who offered to come to earth andoffer Himself as the sinless sacrifice to atone for our sins. Jesus is sometimes referreo
as an “Elder Brother” since He is the Firstborn, but it seems more appropriate to me to to Him as the Only Begotten Son, and He becomes our spiritual Father through our being reborn in a spiritual rebirth–the second birth
Yes, just as Christ has a resurrected body and said “He that hath seen me hath seen the
Father”. God is spirit, and should be worshiped in spirit and in truth, with our full spiritual love and all our mind and heart.

They are all found in the Bible, but God also preserves free will choice so the Bible doesn’t come right out and say “there will be a second witness of Christ that will be in the hands of Ephraim and will join with the witness of Christ in the hands of Judah and they will be one in mine hand” to bring to the “deaf” the “words of the book.”

God will not force belief onto people, by making things so obvious that their free wilchoice is taken away by “obvious rational proof.” You may be somewhat familiar with 1 Corinthians 1-3 on this subject.

Again, it’s hidden so that people can seek and find, ask and receive, knock and “it shall be
opened”. People grow in spirituality as they thirst for truths and look for them and find them. If it were to be spoon-fed to them, they would have much less spiritual growth. If you take the time to read this thread, you will find comments and links that cite Biblical scriptures about a “falling away” and about the beast being allowed to "make war with the saints, and to overcome them.

Sure thing. (I had wondered if you were pulling my leg.)/QUOTE

Thanks. Another clarification. How many Gods are there in all of creation…in all of the universe (or universes). Is there only one God? Or are there other gods? is the God of
Abraham the same god that would lord over the planet Babblebrox and it’s inhabitants (if it exists

 

[ParkerD]

Thanks. Another clarification. How many Gods are there in all of creation…in all of the universe (or universes). Is there only one God? Or are there other gods? is the God of
Abraham the same god that would lord over the planet Babblebrox and it’s inhabitants (if it exists

Men of St Joseph,

Moses was told in vision, “there is no God beside me,” (Moses 1:6), and also “worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.” (Moses 1:33). So the answer to your third question is “yes”. The answer to your first question is that there is One Supreme Ruler of the universe(s). The answer to your second question is given in the book of Revelation, as I already had noted, and also in the Savior’s intercessory prayer, which was about all of us becoming one with Him, really and truly, through His grace.

Peace to you.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,
I really want to commend you. I can only imagine how hard its been for you to constantly be in the hot box. However, I am confused by one thing: this diactomy between your commitment of faith needed to make this “mission trip” into this den of CAFers and your seemingly consistanly cavalier “I’m OK your OK” responces.

We can’t all be right. Speak up. Tell us how wrong we are if you feel that way. Your Truth and my Truth cant both be right. One cancels out the other. if I was talking to someone I believed to be aborant to my Faith it would be my duty to tell them so. …

Men of St Joseph,

My purpose has been to clarify misunderstandings about the LDS beliefs, so people who read the misunderstandings and misconceptions can have a better position from which to “judge”, since they do judge and carry the misunderstandings with them wherever they go in the world. (Why not try and let them have less misunderstanding, has been my reasoning.) I also have been willing to try and answer questions if they seemed sincerely presented.

The reason I have said “you’re OK” is that I have come to understand that this really is the case, in that people will receive in eternity what they desire and live for in this life, through the atoning grace of Christ and their repentance, so they indeed are going to be “OK”, and I have not one bit of obligation to force someone to believe what I believe, nor are they “in danger” if they don’t. The Father and the Son won’t give someone a “stone” if they “ask for bread.” They make it possible for them to receive what they sincerely, deeply, feel to ask for, as long as they live by their heart’s desire.

I also have emphasized reading the Bible, studying its words without preconceptions, and allowing the Holy Spirit to be the teacher. I believe this to be extremely important. The idea is to keep growing, keep learning, and keep changing.

Have a good day.

 

[ParkerD]

So are there any LDS doctrines that are not relative, that are not subject to some cultural exceptions? Are there any doctrines that if one observed the Church exercising in a relative manner you would feel someone justified in rejecting the Church over?

Peter John,

I’m not in their shoes. I don’t know their heart, I don’t know their motivations, and I certainly don’t know their relationship to the Good Shepherd and coming to know His voice and follow it. Their key relationship is with Him.

If you are familiar with the Book of Mormon enough to remember the story of Zeniff, Limhi, King Noah and Abinadi and Alma, then part of the symbolism of that story is that Zeniff was over-zealous (Mosiah 9:3), went off with a group who ended up having a difficult situation, but yet from that group came much good and an eventual reconciliation and all this fulfilled God’s purposes.

So who am I to judge what His purposes are for any one person? Maybe they are going to be in a position to help a number of people (and probably are, so long as they follow their “highest good” desires and seek the voice of the Good Shepherd in their life). That’s how I look at it.

 

[ParkerD]

And lo, you have participated in many a “semantic tug-of-war” such that it is not possible to take this assertion of disinterest seriously.

Zaffiroborant,

I’ve tried to clarify meanings from my perspective, explain why I believe what I believe, and allow others to believe as they feel to do. By “tug-of-war” I meant the kind of communication that says “you gotta believe the way I do”.

I appreciate that your comments haven’t been along those lines, so, thanks.

 

[ParkerD]

So that means that the true Church of Christ has been misleading its followers for more than a century and a half?

As I’ve explained, I don’t know one way or the other about that, nor do I feel like “brothers” has been emphasized in a way that I ever noticed. Nor have I found that Joseph Smith presented the relationship in that way. Nor do I feel like it makes a difference in how one is going to live their life and make decisions about how to come unto Christ and be perfected in Him. I think it’s a distraction to worry about it.

 

[ParkerD]

But to make it simpler: If authority was gone, Mormons have no heritage in theri suffereing. If the authority was there, and they practiced something diofferent, Mormons have no heritage in their suffering.

If the authority was not taken away, no work needs to be done for them: So when was the authority taken away?

I don’t feel the need to have a “heritage in their suffering.” There are plenty of people within my own heritage background who have suffered for their beliefs, and been faithful.

It looks to me like the loss of authority occurred at around 95 AD or so, or whenever John was taken into the wilderness.

 

[ParkerD]

…
DO you have a personal revelation of Christ, a personal relationship with Christ, to compare to that? Or do you have any idea what I’m talking about?

Peter John,

I disagree with the entire subject you presented, so of course I don’t compare my experience with the living, guiding Good Shepherd with what you described. It is a different world than my world. I wouldn’t care to explore that world, at all. It is non-Biblical from my perspective, and I’m not interested.

I hope we can be done discussing all this now, folks. I wish each of you all the best, and joy and peace in your life. These are probably the days when the “world is in commotion”. It will be important to rely on the inner peace the Savior offers to us.