LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

I’m not in their shoes. I don’t know their heart, I don’t know their motivations, and I certainly don’t know their relationship to the Good Shepherd and coming to know His voice and follow it. Their key relationship is with Him.

If you are familiar with the Book of Mormon enough to remember the story of Zeniff, Limhi, King Noah and Abinadi and Alma, then part of the symbolism of that story is that Zeniff was over-zealous (Mosiah 9:3), went off with a group who ended up having a difficult situation, but yet from that group came much good and an eventual reconciliation and all this fulfilled God’s purposes.

So who am I to judge what His purposes are for any one person? Maybe they are going to be in a position to help a number of people (and probably are, so long as they follow their “highest good” desires and seek the voice of the Good Shepherd in their life). That’s how I look at it.

It still does not tell me if you beleive any doctrines inviolable, or if a living prophet,or his local representatives, might alter any doctrine at any given time.

 

[pablope]

I have to take the devil’s advocate side on this one

1. Polygamy
   A) "Some early LDS split off groups from Mormonism affirm that Joseph Smith did not teach polygamy.
   B) all the differrent quorums of the Twelve,
   not recognize the law went to martyrdom? That could explain where the “true authority” went.

On the one hand, it is not just like they toppled over at resistance. They help out as long as they can.

On the other hand, had the early Christians had such an attitude of submission to the law, nobody would have to have accepted being fed to the Lions!

Well, and that might explain how the earliest Christians really believed as Mormons. So when it came time to be fed to the Lions, they recanted, leaving only apostates who were dedicated unto death, but did not believe that God submits to governments as the ones who died.

I see a big difference here, though between the early christians during the roman persecution and the mormon giving in to remove or not practice polygamy.

The early christians faced death if they did not renounce Christ, the whole of Christianity itself.

For the LDS, it was a doctrine, a practice, not the religion itself, or not their whole body of teachings, if you may. And it was forced, not the LDS seeing the light if God’s guidance that it was not to be practiced anymore.

 

[pablope]

I don’t feel the need to have a “heritage in their suffering.” There are plenty of people within my own heritage background who have suffered for their beliefs, and been faithful.

It looks to me like the loss of authority occurred at around 95 AD or so, or whenever John was taken into the wilderness.

I sincerly hope you are not insisting saying that John should have been pope, thereby repeatedly calling again Jesus a liar.

It looks like you have pinned down a start of the apostasy. So, now provide your proof, tangible proof, historical evidence that would support your statement. Otherwise, it will remain a figment on one’s imagination.

 

[RebeccaJ]

There are Mormons who remain in defiance of the anti-polygamy laws, today.

 

[lax16]

OR
3) An LDS lesson manual has been changed to reflect a more careful reading and adhering to the wording of the scriptures on the subject of the relationship between the Savior and Lucifer, and thus no longer teaches in that manual that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers in the pre-Earth life. I accept this change in the manual. I need not live in the past over this issue.

I choose #3.

It wasn’t only the lesson manual that needs changing! Don’t forget the teachings of these apostles and prophets.
Can the writer of a manual trump a prophet?
Please explain how the Holy Spirit led them to be speak incorrectly?

Apostle John A. Widtsoe explained:

The story of Lucifer is the most terrible example of such apostasy. … He pitted his own plan and will against the purposes of God. He strove to gain the birthright of his Elder Brother, Jesus the Christ. When his proposition was rejected, he forsook all that he had gained, … He was no longer Lucifer, bearer of truth, who walked in light, but Satan, teacher of untruth, who slunk in darkness. He became the enemy of God and of all who try to walk according to the Lord’s commandments. One-third of the spirits present in that vast assembly supported Satan and became enemies of the truth that they had formerly cherished. With him these rebellious spirits lost their fellowship with the valiant sons of God. (Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 209)

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie stated:

God lives in the family unit. He is our Father in heaven—the literal and personal Father of the spirits of all men. He begat us; we are the offspring of Heavenly Parents: we have an Eternal Father and an Eternal Mother. We were born as spirits, and we dwelt in the presence of our Eternal Parents; we lived before our mortal birth. As spirits we were in all respects as we are now save only that we were not housed in mortal bodies as is the present circumstance. Christ was the Firstborn of all the heavenly host; Lucifer was a son of the morning: each of us came into being as conscious identities in our appointed order; and Christ is our Elder Brother. (The Mortal Messiah, vol. 1, p. 21)

President Spencer W. Kimball commented on the relationship of Lucifer to Jesus:

The importance of not accommodating temptation in the least degree is underlined by the Savior’s example. Did not he recognize the danger when he was on the mountain with his fallen brother, Lucifer, being sorely tempted by that master tempter? He could have opened the door and flirted with danger by saying, “All right, Satan, I’ll listen to your proposition. I need not succumb, I need not yield, I need not accept—but I’ll listen.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 163)

President Spencer W. Kimball also wrote:

Similarly Satan had contended for the subservience of Moses. Satan, also a son of God, had rebelled and had been cast out of heaven and not permitted an earthly body as had his brother Jehovah. Much depended upon the outcome of this spectacular duel. Could Lucifer control and dominate this prophet Moses, who had learned so much directly from his Lord? (Faith Precedes the Miracle, p. 87)

In 1949 Apostle Joseph F. Merrill stated:

Now there is another personality of which I desire to speak, … that person is Satan, the Devil. But according to our understanding and teaching, Satan is a person with a spirit body, in form like that of all other men. He is a spirit brother of ours and of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is our Elder Brother in the spirit world. The earth was in course of development for the abode of man in mortality. A Redeemer was to be sent down and make it possible for the Father’s children to return to him. (LDS Conference Report, April 1949, p. 27)

Speaking in 1857, Apostle Joseph Young taught:

Who is it that is at the head of this? It is the Devil, the mighty Lucifer, the great prince of the angels, and the brother of Jesus. He left the province of his Father, and took with him a third part of his Father’s kingdom, and there was no other alternative but to banish him. God would have saved him if he could; but he could not. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, pp. 207-208, October 11, 1857)

In 1844 LDS author W. W. Phelps wrote:

And again, we exclaim, O Mormonism! No wonder that Lucifer, son of the morning, the next heir to Jesus Christ, our eldest brother, should fight so hard against his brethren; he lost the glory, the honor, power, and dominion of a God and the knowledge, spirit, authority and keys of the priesthood of the son of God!

Christ kept his first estate—Lucifer lost his by offering to save men in their sins on the honor of a God, or on his father’s honor.—Christ hated sin, and loved righteousness, therefore he was anointed with holy oil in heaven, and crowned in the midst of brothers and sisters, while his mother stood with approving virtue, and smiled upon a Son that kept the faith as the heir of all things. (Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 758, Jan. 1, 1844, art. by W. W. Phelps)

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

I disagree with the entire subject you presented, so of course I don’t compare my experience with the living, guiding Good Shepherd with what you described. It is a different world than my world. I wouldn’t care to explore that world, at all. It is non-Biblical from my perspective, and I’m not interested.

Nothing I wrote denies a living guiding good shepherd. The subtext of what you are saying is that you want your testimony top reach beyond any words of reason, hoping to herd in any “lost sheep”-- peopleyou hope will recognize Christ in your appeal more than in Catholicism – in the subtext of the language you have used, as understood within an LDS context, that is what you are saying. You declare the Good Shepherd in lieu of any valid evidence to points presented, hoping others will recognize His voice in you, regardless of facts.

Your Biblical perspective affirms that the sacrifices of the Christian martyrs in the first three centuries of Christianity have no significance (which BTW is NOT the LDS perspective). What should be persuasive of your perception of the living, guiding Good Shepherd for anyone to hear that shepherd’s voice through you, when you deny both what your Church professes and the value of the martyrs who died for Christianity to survive in the first place?

The topic is to prove that the authority was removed. So far everything you have said amounts to the proof is that you believe it was taken away, and that is enough.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m beginning to wonder if ParkerD is possessed (seriously). Everything he says grows more and more in a convoluted braid of truth and lies, that can really only have one source.

 

[Peter_John]

I see a big difference here, though between the early christians during the roman persecution and the mormon giving in to remove or not practice polygamy.

The early christians faced death if they did not renounce Christ, the whole of Christianity itself.

For the LDS, it was a doctrine, a practice, not the religion itself, or not their whole body of teachings, if you may. And it was forced, not the LDS seeing the light if God’s guidance that it was not to be practiced anymore.

That is my point early christians faced death and did not recant. Mormons faced losing property over something they believed inherent to the practice of their religion in that time and did recant. If threat of loss of property suffices to refute something publicly, then threat of death is certainly a reason.

 

[Peter_John]

There are Mormons who remain in defiance of the anti-polygamy laws, today.

These are actually not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They excommunicate anyone who perists in the practice, orin defending it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

These are actually not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They excommunicate anyone who perists in the practice, orin defending it.

The are still Mormons, and their “break-away” was at the commandment of Mormon (LDS) leadership.

But that isn’t my point. Pablope said there is a view that the practice of polygamy was forced to be quit…well, apparently there was a choice, where some did continue on in the practice. So, why give into force, when it wasn’t necessary?

 

[Peter_John]

My purpose has been to clarify misunderstandings about the LDS beliefs, so people who read the misunderstandings and misconceptions can have a better position from which to “judge”, since they do judge and carry the misunderstandings with them wherever they go in the world.

You seem to have done a surpirisingly effective job. Many people posting here – myself not among them – believed that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints alters its public teachings as traps for new converts according to expedience. You have nearly persuaded even myself to believe this, so thank you for the clarification.

ParkerD;7597899:

I also have emphasized reading the Bible, studying its words without preconceptions, and allowing the Holy Spirit to be the teacher. I believe this to be extremely important. The idea is to keep growing, keep learning, and keep changing.

Your interpretations of the Bible begin with the preconception that seven books in it are invalid. How is that reading it without preconception?

 

[Peter_John]

The are still Mormons, and their “break-away” was at the commandment of Mormon (LDS) leadership.

But that isn’t my point. Pablope said there is a view that the practice of polygamy was forced to be quit…well, apparently there was a choice, where some did continue on in the practice. So, why give into force, when it wasn’t necessary?

Those are actually split-off prophets as well. Compare them to Mormonism as Lutherans and other Protestants compare to Catholics. The Salt Lake based Church maintains that it has the authority, and does not even grant partial fellowship to groups who practice this. Some earlier splinter groups, the ones from before the movement West, actually affirm that polygamy was never a valid practice. They have some claim to LDS authority as opposed to the Church in Salt Lake, and own many of the early Church assets,including some crucial to fulfillment of prophesy… THey are like the Easter and Western Churches in Catholicism, except that they have no fellowship with each other

 

[menofstjoseph]

Men of St Joseph,

The answer to your second question is given in the book of Revelation, as I already had noted, and also in the Savior’s intercessory prayer, which was about all of us becoming one with Him, really and truly, through His grace.

Peace to you.

Sorry bro. We are on like the eight zillionth post of this thread. Instead of directing mr to a previous post, or to a passage in Revelation, do you mind just straight up answering my second question in more detail It would help me out a lot. Thanks.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Those are actually split-off prophets as well. Compare them to Mormonism as Lutherans and other Protestants compare to Catholics. The Salt Lake based Church maintains that it has the authority, and does not even grant partial fellowship to groups who practice this. Some earlier splinter groups, the ones from before the movement West, actually affirm that polygamy was never a valid practice. They have some claim to LDS authority as opposed to the Church in Salt Lake, and own many of the early Church assets,including some crucial to fulfillment of prophesy… THey are like the Easter and Western Churches in Catholicism, except that they have no fellowship with each other

This is irrelevant too my point, which is, the practice of polygamy was not forced to be abandoned as evidenced by those who did not abandon it.

 

[menofstjoseph]

Men of St Joseph,

nor are they “in danger” if they don’t.

Parker,
Thanks fir the response. So are you saying that non-Mormon Christians (including Catholics) are not in danger of losing their Salvation if they do not listen to a word Joseph Smith had to say?

If the teachings of my Church are as good at providing a ticket to Reward With Christ as LDS, then how could there have been the Great Apostasy?

 

[benidict]

In defence of Parker D. (and he really does not need it.) I have followed many of his post at a distance for a long long time. I think he does a better job of articulating the meaning of scripture better than most mainline protestants. Do I agree with him? no, not on some doctrinal issues. but as far as his knowledge of the scriptures, and his understanding of them? I would have to say many times he is dead on accurate. Do I agree with the BOM? Nope. I believe it is a complete fabrication. But…When Parker explains it, it makes perfect sense what the original author was intending. Personally I put him in the seperated bretheren catagory. Probably get some people mad… but oh well LOL! I Love all my Catholic brothers/sisters here no matter what. But if we could, Lets send up extra prayers for Parker D. and His. Peace and prayers for you and yours Parker.

 

[benidict]

I don’t feel the need to have a “heritage in their suffering.” There are plenty of people within my own heritage background who have suffered for their beliefs, and been faithful.

It looks to me like the loss of authority occurred at around 95 AD or so, or whenever John was taken into the wilderness.

Hello my friend. This is where we will have a divergence of view. The earliest Christian authors, those that were desciples of the Apostles stated that the Apostles had set up a system whereby that authority could not be lost. It is clear that they set up a system of Apostolic succession. I noticed you said a loss of Authority. this is different than saying that the Church apostasized, which you know I do not believe can happen. Do most Latter Day Saints in our day in time, believe that the Church did not Apostasize, but simply lost its Authority? I would appreciate your thoughts. Peace and prayers for you.

 

[Peter_John]

This is irrelevant too my point, which is, the practice of polygamy was not forced to be abandoned as evidenced by those who did not abandon it.

So do youi maintain that those who persist in the practice of polygamy still qualify as valid Latter-day saints?

 

[RebeccaJ]

So do youi maintain that those who persist in the practice of polygamy still qualify as valid Latter-day saints?

LDS like to think they are the only ones that can be called Mormon. However, non-LDS Mormons call themselves, “Mormon”.

They all came out of the Latter Day Saint religious movement. Their commonality is a belief in Joseph Smith as a prophet and the Book of Mormon as scripture.

 

[Peter_John]

LDS like to think they are the only ones that can be called Mormon. However, non-LDS Mormons call themselves, “Mormon”.

They all came out of the Latter Day Saint religious movement. Their commonality is a belief in Joseph Smith as a prophet and the Book of Mormon as scripture.

My point is that the CHurch in Salt Lake, which maintains that it has the authority does not consider them members. Just as a Catholic Bishop who starts ordaining women to the priesthood would be disowned by Rome, and we would not consider that bishop catholic, those who persist in the practice of polygamy breal with fellowship from the parent organization and become heretics.

The Associated Press maintains the standard that it is only aceptable to use the term “Mormon” to refer to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints headquartered in Salt Lake City.

You cannot dispute with an organization, separate yourself from the organization over that issue, and continue maintaining that you belong to the organization. You can then only speak for yourself. We cannot criticize the Church for what those it rejects teach themselves. Is Catholicism repsonsible for what Martin Luther taught?