LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[ParkerD]

Parker, I appreciate you trying to explain, but you are using definitions and interpretations of your own making. Christ founded a Church. I have no problem defining that, in part, as a congregation of believers, but this is a secular definition. The Church is Christ’s presence on earth, a family of believers, the mystical Body of Christ, the people of God. It was given the mission to spread God’s kingdom to the ends of the earth and its head, Jesus Christ promised to never leave it. This is my point. It is much more than a human institution and therefore more than just a community of believers. It is a divine institution which, by its very nature, cannot fail. If it should fail, then there is no way around saying that Christ failed.

If it was merely a community of believers, founded by men (which all other churches are) there is no doubt that a total apostasy could have occurred. But you cannot ignore the promises made by our God himself concerning the Church that He founded. It cannot, and has not failed. The Apostles didn’t claim that Jesus, et al, appeared to them. He founded His Church and made those promises concerning His Church in the flesh. That is from whence we trace our beginnings. We are not reliant on simply the claims of a man, but on Jesus Christ Himself.

God bless.

SteveVH,

Thanks for your kind thoughts.

As far as my being backed into a corner by the idea of a “divine church” with human people involved in “running” it, the supposed corner has a panorama looking out from a view that you can’t see, and it isn’t a corner after all–the view is beautiful, and the way is open for exit from the supposed corner, so I’m not in that corner–I’m out enjoying the beautiful view, and it is absolutely breathtaking and joyful!

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

Thanks for your kind thoughts.

As far as my being backed into a corner by the idea of a “divine church” with human people involved in “running” it, the supposed corner has a panorama looking out from a view that you can’t see, and it isn’t a corner after all–the view is beautiful, and the way is open for exit from the supposed corner, so I’m not in that corner–I’m out enjoying the beautiful view, and it is absolutely breathtaking and joyful!

Rather than keep this vision hidden, why don’t you share it with us?

We agree that Christ is divine.

Scripture is clear that Christ started a Church. “Upon this rock I will build my church.”

If it is Christ’s Church, and Christ is divine and the head of his Church, then it is a divine institution. We are invited to become God’s adopted sons and daughters by entering into this divine institution and being fed the Bread of Life. He promised He would never leave us orphans. The same doctrines and beliefs have been guarded by the Church ever since. It has out lasted every single human institution and every government in existence since its founding over 2000 years ago, a testament to its divine nature. Jesus has kept his promises. Is it so difficult to accept this?

I’m not trying to back you into a corner. Please just tell me what you find erroneus in what I have said.

Thanks.

 

[KathleenGee]

Rebecca,

Your peace and unity is a great blessing…I pray your family be filled with much, much love!

 

[Peter_John]

1. I’ve stated several times that there are no “historical documents” with the kind of proof you seek, but that there is certainly scriptural support, which you aren’t going to agree with and that is your privilege and also in keeping with free will choice given deliberately to all of us by a loving Supreme Being who planned this world for our good. I’ve cited the scriptures already in this thread. As others have said, they aren’t “proof.”
   .

There are actually plenty of historical documents establishing who followed the apostles, and a continual record from the end of the New Testament on showing the advance of authority, what things were heresies, and waht were not.

That is the reason why there are no documents supporting the things you claim. You cannot find evidence in a historical record for how we later may think things should have been, only for things how they were.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

I was in such a rush when I was reading earlier this morning, that I just plain got mixed up, so I’m sorry about that and hope you will accept that I had meant to thank you, sincerely and with much appreciation.

Hey ParkerD its all cool, I knew what you meant, and I appreciate your prayers. You know I love ya. As I stated in the past we may have different paths that we follow, but I still think you are awesome.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, I agree.

In my conversion from atheism to Catholicism my husband expressed his fear the religion would tear us apart. I told him that there wasn’t any reason that it should.

He is still atheist, my daughter is attracted to Buddhism. Today she was wearing a rosary around that I made. That is how she is. She finds the rosary beautiful.

We do alright. No one is forcing anything on anyone else and no one is threatening to leave because we differ in belief.

Hi RebeccaJ, Hang in there! My Mom and Dad always said if you want someone to come to God and believe, be a good example for God in the way you live. Then they will come to you when they are ready and you can lead them to Christ in the Church and the Eucharist.

It takes time, and patience, but you know the saying you can never push love on someone, what is Love? God! Right!

Now if I were to take a guess I would say God put YOU in their lives so you could lead them to him also. But it takes time, but I promise you that the Holy Spirit can strike at any given moment and once it does good thing’s will happen.

My daughter is a very faithful in her belief, she has been married for almost 2 years now, and her husband is kind of lost as far as faith goes. But Father told her to continue going to Church and let him ask her to come. Well its been 2 LONNNNNNNNG years. But guess what! In this last month alone he came TWICE:extrahappy:

 

[ParkerD]

Hey ParkerD its all cool, I knew what you meant, and I appreciate your prayers. You know I love ya. As I stated in the past we may have different paths that we follow, but I still think you are awesome.

Rinnie,

Thanks–you’re very kind. I appreciate your personality that comes through in your posts–delightful.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hi RebeccaJ, Hang in there! My Mom and Dad always said if you want someone to come to God and believe, be a good example for God in the way you live. Then they will come to you when they are ready and you can lead them to Christ in the Church and the Eucharist.

It takes time, and patience, but you know the saying you can never push love on someone, what is Love? God! Right!

Now if I were to take a guess I would say God put YOU in their lives so you could lead them to him also. But it takes time, but I promise you that the Holy Spirit can strike at any given moment and once it does good thing’s will happen.

My daughter is a very faithful in her belief, she has been married for almost 2 years now, and her husband is kind of lost as far as faith goes. But Father told her to continue going to Church and let him ask her to come. Well its been 2 LONNNNNNNNG years. But guess what! In this last month alone he came TWICE:extrahappy:

Thanks Rinnie, my family came to my baptism and they support me in my faith. My husband BBQs me up a fish filet on most Fridays, small things, like that. They come with me to Mass on Christmas day.

People need to be free in their faith, in their relationship with God. To know God, freely. As you say, what kind of love is forced?

That is good news re: your son-in-law.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

Thanks for your kind thoughts.

As far as my being backed into a corner by the idea of a “divine church” with human people involved in “running” it, the supposed corner has a panorama looking out from a view that you can’t see, and it isn’t a corner after all–the view is beautiful, and the way is open for exit from the supposed corner, so I’m not in that corner–I’m out enjoying the beautiful view, and it is absolutely breathtaking and joyful!

Rather than keep this vision hidden, why don’t you share it with us?

We agree that Christ is divine.

Scripture is clear that Christ started a Church. “Upon this rock I will build my church.”

If it is Christ’s Church, and Christ is divine and the head of his Church, then it is a divine institution. We are invited to become God’s adopted sons and daughters by entering into this divine institution and being fed the Bread of Life. He promised He would never leave us orphans. The same doctrines and beliefs have been guarded by the Church ever since. It has out lasted every single human institution and every government in existence since its founding over 2000 years ago, a testament to its divine nature. Jesus has kept his promises. Is it so difficult to accept this?

I’m not trying to back you into a corner. Please just tell me what you find erroneus in what I have said.

Thanks.

 

[rinnie]

Thanks Rinnie, my family came to my baptism and they support me in my faith. My husband BBQs me up a fish filet on most Fridays, small things, like that. They come with me to Mass on Christmas day.

People need to be free in their faith, in their relationship with God. To know God, freely. As you say, what kind of love is forced?

That is good news re: your son-in-law.

You have no idea what that little thing of frying up that fish on fridays is doing. He is not only showing his love and respect for you, he isn’t fighting you on your faith he us actually helping you to be a better Catholic. I think that’s great.

And the Mass on Christmas will soon turn into Mass on Easter, etc. Its a start. Its the Holy Spirit doing its work. But remember the HS knows what they can handle and when they can accept things. Have faith in the HS the way you do and all will end well!

My Son in law actually started out helping my husband when he had to work on the Church and things like that. He would ride by sometimes when he knew we were there and then just help. He said he saw us so thought he would stop and help, but deep inside I knew it wasn’t us that drew him it was the HS.

But also remember some of the best Catholics are people like your husband who took thing’s slow. I will keep him in my prayers.

Isn’t it funny how God reached you, and how someday it will be through you he will reach the rest of your family.

 

[lax16]

My response was:
I would think it is a safe assumption (not being there to see the effects) that some had the Holy Spirit with them, and others didn’t. The more the dissension, the greater the loss of the Holy Spirit among the members. The more a leader tried to dissipate the free will choice of the members, the greater the loss of the Holy Spirit by such a leader and any followers of this kind of practice.

(I had earlier said that I certainly believe the Twelve Apostles (with Matthias included) had the Holy Spirit to guide their decisions, which included that they discussed issues and sought spiritual confirmation of decisions. So now we are talking about what happened after the First Apostles died.)

After the First Apostles died, there are no scriptural sources to say how decisions were made specifically. We know how they “should” have been made, based on the example of how the decisions were made by the twelve apostles. We also know that dissension and disunity had begun to occur frequently among the members and even among some leaders whom some members followed–this from reading the epistles of Paul, Peter, Jude, and John.

We know that there was laying on of hands, baptisms, and that the apostles went all over preaching the Good News and converted many.
Parker, you should know better than me, that dissension and disunity among the members does not mean a church cannot flourish, right?

1. I’ve stated several times that there are no “historical documents” with the kind of proof you seek, but that there is certainly scriptural support, which you aren’t going to agree with and that is your privilege and also in keeping with free will choice given deliberately to all of us by a loving Supreme Being who planned this world for our good. I’ve cited the scriptures already in this thread. As others have said, they aren’t “proof.”

It isn’t the proof that I alone seek, but what we should all be seeking. God did not leave us alone unable to defend and prove our faith.
The scriptures you have cited only refer to the problems in the early Church. Mormons had problems in their early church - no difference - it is bound to happen. Disagreements will happen and in the early Church they were resolved. We have proof of that.

1. Those are two separate issues. Heavenly Father can do whatever He wants with His authority, since it really is His. The authority ties to the scriptures related to item
2. As for the Holy Spirit, some would presumably have had the Holy Spirit to guide them to the extent they were seeking specific guidance regarding specific truths they prayed about or sought the “burning in their heart” about the answer to. (I think those who opposed the idea of the “Eucharist” when the doctrinal shift over that occurred, had the Holy Spirit with them and that is why they would not participate when it was clear what was being represented.)

from the book The Fathers Know Best:
Protestant historian of the early Church J.N.D. Kelly writes: “Eucharist teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood”

St. Ignatius of Antioch (He was the third bishop of Antioch and heard the apostle John. He died around 110)
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ, which have come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God…They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, flesh that suffered for our sins and that the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes [Letter *to the Smyrnaeans 6-7 (c. A.D. 110)]

1. I don’t, as I’ve already explained. The loss of authority would lead to the loss of the “gift of the Holy Ghost”, but not to the complete loss of the Holy Ghost to help discerning people to find and cling to truths to guide their lives. So there is a substantial difference, and the loss of the one doesn’t mean the total loss of the other among the members. (The “gift of the Holy Ghost” relates to being “born of the Spirit”, so it was an important loss, but only what would be called a “partial loss” in terms of anyone ever having spiritual guidance.)

Again, you have no way of no knowing who was led by the Holy Spirit and who was not.
And yet, you claim to know.
I am sure the martyrs, St. Ignatius of Antioch included, had the Holy Spirit with them. Otherwise, it is doubtful they would have died for their faith.

Again, a wish of peace to you and all.

You, too!

 

[pablope]

Hi, Lax16,

I suppose that you’re asking for a recap of our conversation:

1. I’ve stated several times that there are no “historical documents” with the kind of proof you seek, but that there is certainly scriptural support, which you aren’t going to agree with and that is your privilege and also in keeping with free will choice given deliberately to all of us by a loving Supreme Being who planned this world for our good. I’ve cited the scriptures already in this thread. As others have said, they aren’t “proof.”

With due respect, Parker, in the end, you only end up convincing yourself and your fellow LDS.

If as you stated the scriptures had predicted it, then there should be a trove if historical accounts documenting the prediction. And we all agree that the Scriptures do not lie. The fact that you cannot produce anything other that citing scriptural passages with your twisted extrapolation only shows that you had been lied to.

A truly conscientious person would force him to re-examine and to do critical thinking.
But from what you had shown, you do not believe as this is your self-defense mechanism to prove to your self that what you hold is true.

 

[Stephen168]

Some Mormon scripture ‘proofs’ are warnings not prophecies.

“Look both ways, or you will get hit by a car.”
Mormon Church concludes you were hit by a car.

 

[Peter_John]

Hi RebeccaJ, Hang in there! My Mom and Dad always said if you want someone to come to God and believe, be a good example for God in the way you live. Then they will come to you when they are ready and you can lead them to Christ in the Church and the Eucharist.

It takes time, and patience, but you know the saying you can never push love on someone, what is Love? God! Right!

Now if I were to take a guess I would say God put YOU in their lives so you could lead them to him also. But it takes time, but I promise you that the Holy Spirit can strike at any given moment and once it does good thing’s will happen.

My daughter is a very faithful in her belief, she has been married for almost 2 years now, and her husband is kind of lost as far as faith goes. But Father told her to continue going to Church and let him ask her to come. Well its been 2 LONNNNNNNNG years. But guess what! In this last month alone he came TWICE:extrahappy:

The woman who taught RCIA in my Parish when I went through it, and continued afterward, and had for a long time. She had two teenage sons raised Catholic, though she was married to a non-Catholic. It was fairly well assumed that by being married to her her husband was thoroughly satechized. Still, the whole parish got an unexpected and pleasant surprise when her husband was confirmed at midnight mass this past Christmas.

The point of the story is that rather than dwell on what she wanted the most, her husband to accpet full fellowship, she spent years helping others come into full fellowship.

 

[lax16]

Some Mormon scripture ‘proofs’ are warnings not prophecies.

“Look both ways, or you will get hit by a car.”
Mormon Church concludes you were hit by a car.

Excellent point!

They were warnings not prophecies!:doh2:

 

[ParkerD]

Rather than keep this vista hidden, why don’t you share it with us?

SteveVH,

There is only so much of it that can be seen without living within its vista and experiencing the blessings of being there. It is described as “having life more abundantly”, through understanding the purposes of this life and through seeing the unfolding of God’s purposes, which are beautiful and wonderful to see. I think a person sees as much of it as they deep-down want to.

We agree that Christ is divine.

Yes, absolutely.

Scripture is clear that Christ started a Church.

Yes, a church comprised of believers in Him who knew of Him by personal revelation.

“Upon this rock I will build my church.”

Yes, the same Rock that He had spoken of through the prophets of the Old Testament. He didn’t change rocks. He was the same Jehovah who had spoken then.

If it is Christ’s Church, and Christ is divine and the head of his Church, then it is a divine institution. We are invited to become God’s adopted sons and daughters by entering into this divine institution and being fed the Bread of Life.

The Bread of Life is His word and His gospel, which live in the person who takes all His teachings into their life and becomes changed by them. They are no longer the same person. They see the world and themselves in a whole new way. He had taught the Bread of Life doctrine through the Manna He gave to the children of Israel. Some didn’t understand the message or the lesson, but it was there.

He promised He would never leave us orphans.

I’m not sure the reference here. Do you mean “comfortless”?

The same doctrines and beliefs have been guarded by the Church ever since.

That’s one of the problems, that the doctrines have been changed such as the Rock and understanding what it means, and the Good Shepherd and understanding what He will do for every person who hears His voice.

It has out lasted every single human institution and every government in existence since its founding over 2000 years ago, a testament to its divine nature.

I would question that logic, but I guess it works for some people. Fine.

Jesus has kept his promises. Is it so difficult to accept this?

I do indeed understand that He has kept and does keep and will keep every one of His promises.

Thanks.

P.S. For the benefit of Pablope, further background:

4.0 GPA, B of A in English, very comfortable with understanding the Bible through having studied it often throughout my life as I have noted before. You have what you want, and I certainly have what I want and have not the slightest sense of intimidation from anyone who posts on this forum, or anyone in my real life, either. It’s called being “free indeed.”

 

[Peter_John]

SteveVH,

There is only so much of it that can be seen without living within its vista and experiencing the blessings of being there. It is described as “having life more abundantly”, through understanding the purposes of this life and through seeing the unfolding of God’s purposes, which are beautiful and wonderful to see. I think a person sees as much of it as they deep-down want to.

Yes, absolutely.

Yes, a church comprised of believers in Him who knew of Him by personal revelation.

Yes, the same Rock that He had spoken of through the prophets of the Old Testament. He didn’t change rocks. He was the same Jehovah who had spoken then.

The Bread of Life is His word and His gospel, which live in the person who takes all His teachings into their life and becomes changed by them. They are no longer the same person. They see the world and themselves in a whole new way. He had taught the Bread of Life doctrine through the Manna He gave to the children of Israel. Some didn’t understand the message or the lesson, but it was there.

I’m not sure the reference here. Do you mean “comfortless”?

That’s one of the problems, that the doctrines have been changed such as the Rock and understanding what it means, and the Good Shepherd and understanding what He will do for every person who hears His voice.

I would question that logic, but I guess it works for some people. Fine.

I do indeed understand that He has kept and does keep and will keep every one of His promises.

Thanks.

P.S. For the benefit of Pablope, further background:

4.0 GPA, B of A in English, very comfortable with understanding the Bible through having studied it often throughout my life as I have noted before. You have what you want, and I certainly have what I want and have not the slightest sense of intimidation from anyone who posts on this forum, or anyone in my real life, either. It’s called being “free indeed.”

I am going to reverse the reasoning: If the early Christians could not depend on the Rock to provide them with a permanent organization then, why should Christians today trust any further?

 

[pablope]

SteveVH,

I think a person sees as much of it as they deep-down want to.

 

[rinnie]

The woman who taught RCIA in my Parish when I went through it, and continued afterward, and had for a long time. She had two teenage sons raised Catholic, though she was married to a non-Catholic. It was fairly well assumed that by being married to her her husband was thoroughly satechized. Still, the whole parish got an unexpected and pleasant surprise when her husband was confirmed at midnight mass this past Christmas.

The point of the story is that rather than dwell on what she wanted the most, her husband to accpet full fellowship, she spent years helping others come into full fellowship.

Isn’t that the way God always works. You do what is right and try to please him. and he turns around and rewards you with the gift.

But I don’t think that when we pray and want so badly to see someone gain God in their life, especially someone we love, it is for us, it is to me, the greatest gift we could give them.

We don’t gain anything by them comming to the faith like they do. We are not doing this for ourself at all. At least that is not the way I see it. We are taught that we are here for one reason to do God’s work.

And to know that what we want (someone to love and accept and get to know Christ), is the same thing that God wants is a good feeling.

Because when you have Christ in your life you can handle anything. When you really have the faith and feeling of knowing him, and being able to confess your sins, receive him in the Eucharist, it makes everything that is so horrible in your life at the time, seem okay. Because your faith shows you to hang in there, it will be okay. Get through the moment, because God has the power to move mountains in that second.

Do you realize that if everyone went to confession more often, what they can do to anxiety levels. People need to hear that its going to get better, and will get better. Not here is a pill and I will see you next week. Alot of Doctors are forbidden to even speak of God.

But To want that for someone, to have that faith is not wrong to want for another, simply because it is not a selfish thing, it is the best gift that is possible to want for them. You want them to have what you have.

 

[ParkerD]

I am going to reverse the reasoning: If the early Christians could not depend on the Rock to provide them with a permanent organization then, why should Christians today trust any further?

They were warned about trusting in the “organization” as compared with trusting in the Rock Himself as the living Shepherd, and in the Holy Ghost who was to be the witness of Him within their hearts. The organization doesn’t become the primary witness under those circumstances.

It is the same today. Each person needs an individual, certain and abiding witness within their own heart that “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God”. They also need to be willing to be led by Him as the Good Shepherd, so that their lives are changed by Him through their personal, ongoing repentance and through His grace in their lives.