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zerinus
Guest
The statistical surveys quoted were carried out scientifically, and were designed to reflect Catholic practices and beliefs not those of non-Catholics.
Nobody made such a claim. Christianly had posted a message in this post questioning how the practices of Catholics and Mormons compared regarding abortion, and I posted a reply providing the required information.
zerinus
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
One of the surveys stated ‘Catholic countries’…
Maybe I’m misunderstanding this. But these two countries that you posted stats for also have a high proportion of non-Catholic population too.
Doesn’t that distort the picture for purely Catholic in these examples?
Don’t get me wrong. It may very well be just as high. Then again, maybe it’s not.
Either way, claiming that something is a Catholic country doesn’t necessarilly reflect a purely Catholic stat, just as claming Utah is a Mormon state doesn’t reflect a purely Mormon stat.
Like I said before, there definitely are a high percentage of Catholics who disregard Church teachings. Politicians like Kerry and Kennedy certainly stand out in the crowd for example.
I guess I’m more interested in knowing why this is happening, rather than the statistics involved.
Then again, I’ve always been skeptical of claims of interviewing 493 people in order to determine a percentage for the entire polutation of Catholics in any particular nation.
I could be wrong, but I think the margin of error could be more than the ± 4.5% being claimed by this scientific study .
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tundramom
Guest
When I was a Mormon, I had a friend who approached her bishop after having had all her immunizations for high school. He assured her that she would be alright if she did have an abortion because the child would be a “mongoloid”. I know this first hand because I was there in the room with her. She and I were only 16 years old at the time. She did indeed have an abortion and has since worked with Birthright for the past few years fighting against abortion. She has suffered much depression over it and although she is reconciled with God, she suffers effects of the physical reality of a baby being ripped from her womb by a so-called “doctor”.
in Christ
Steph
in Christ
Steph
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Veritas41
Guest
This explains why in the almost 20 years I’ve been involved in pro-life ministry, I have yet to meet a Mormon active in the pro-life movement. I’m not saying there aren’t any involved, but it would seem if it were a truly pro-life church, there would be more Mormons openly voicing their opposition to abortion and providing help for women with crisis pregnancies.
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christianley
Guest
It’s not that Mormons aren’t pro-life. It’s that the LDS Church keeps its members so busy doing church busy work there is no time leftover for serving in the community. The first person I met who was truly pro-life was an LDS person putting pro-life fliers out on cars in 1978 to try to defeat a pro-choice Senator in Iowa.
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Pug
Guest
An active Mormon devotes large amounts of time to doing things strictly related to their stake or other Mormons. Things like visiting the elderly, helping the poor or sick, etc. I don’t just mean doctrine things. It could easily be that they have used up their entire quota of that sort of community service in their life, and the rest of their time is for their kids, relaxation, work, etc.
Perhaps they might be discouraged from pro-life activities. That I don’t know. However, if there were a single, unwed mother in the Mormon community, I suspect she would be helped. Mormons seem to take care of members in tough straits.
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majick275
Guest
The LDS church has a Social Services subsidiary that is available to all bishops as referral for needy members. They are very involved with adoptions of all types and typically provide help for unwed mothers. It is very effective as a pro-life “enabler”.
I still think it wrong though that LDS bishops see it as their province to counsel members on whether or not an abortion is okay for them.
I still think it wrong though that LDS bishops see it as their province to counsel members on whether or not an abortion is okay for them.
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Valke2
Guest
It sounds to be pretty much in line with Judaism’s position on abortion.
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Valke2
Guest
That’s not a fair description of what it says. I can understand your position against it, but the LDS doctrine as set forth in the link is much more restrictive than your post implies.
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Jaypeeto3
Guest
I remember during my brief stint with the Mormons in 1987/88,
I went for a ride with my ward’s bishop one day and the subject of abortion came up. I was stunned out of my wits when he said to me that Abortion was NOT regarded by the Mormon Church as murder. I had him repeat what he had just said to me, because I couldn’t believe my ears.
That was one of the many reasons I pulled away from the LDS Church, but it was a BIG, BIG reason.
I went for a ride with my ward’s bishop one day and the subject of abortion came up. I was stunned out of my wits when he said to me that Abortion was NOT regarded by the Mormon Church as murder. I had him repeat what he had just said to me, because I couldn’t believe my ears.
That was one of the many reasons I pulled away from the LDS Church, but it was a BIG, BIG reason.
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IAMLDS
Guest
You mean like the Second Counselor in my Stake Presidency who is this years president of the local Kiwanis Club, and a coach of a little league football team. He also is a member of the local school board helping make decisions on school curriculum.
And myself who has church callings, a wife, two kids, and still finds time to train weekly and participate on the local search and rescue team.
Or my Aunt who represented the State of Utah before the Utah State Supreme Court to uphold the State’s abortion law.
How about the lady down the street who has church callings, is PTO president, and is going to school. All this while maintaining a household with 4 kids and a husband.
I could go on…
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Karin
Guest
so what is it…your too busy or not pro-life?
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zerinus
Guest
It is in line with what is reasonable. It is in line with what makes sense. The Catholics here want to tell me that the life of the foetus is more important than the life of the mother. If there is a choice between saving the life of the mother or the foetus, you save the foetus and kill the mother! That is a ludicrous suggestion. It is an absurd idea. It is criminal even. That is why Catholics don’t want to obey it. People have a sixth sense that tells them if a doctrine is right or wrong; and if they perceive that it is wrong they simply don’t obey it, or they rebel against it. The tragedy of that situation then is that they may then reject the would idea, and don’t want to obey it even under those circumstances when it is right that they should. They may even lose confidence in the whole institution, and won’t want to obey any of the rules! That is why there are more Catholic women practising abortion than Protestant ones, and certainly more than LDS ones. When a religion dies, it can’t think straight any more. It strains at a gnat and looses sight of the “weightier matters”. Somebody once asked Joseph Smith once how he was able to govern such a large group of people. He replied, “I teach them correct principle, and they govern themselves”. But when a religion dies it gets stuck in the past, and loses the ability to adapt to new situations, and to identify and teach correct principles. When you teach people correct principles, they have an innate ability to recognize that it is correct, and want to obey it. The Catholic rule of priestly celibacy is another example of such crazy practices of the Catholic Church which has absolutely no sense at all. The “writing is on the wall” for the Catholics!
zerinus
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Valke2
Guest
I had a looonng discussion about this on the “Judaism embraces Life” thread. At the end, almost every Catholic pm’ed me and told me that I had convinced them that my position was right and their’s was wrong. (Just kidding Karin)It is in line with what is reasonable. It is in line with what makes sense. The Catholics here want to tell me that the life of the foetus is more important than the life of the mother. If there is a choice between saving the life of the mother or the foetus, you save the foetus and kill the mother! That is a ludicrous suggestion. It is an absurd idea. It is criminal even. That is why Catholics don’t want to obey it. People have a sixth sense that tells them if a doctrine is right or wrong; and if they perceive that it is wrong they simply don’t obey it, or they rebel against it. The tragedy of that situation then is that they may then reject the would idea, and don’t want to obey it even under those circumstances when it is right that they should. They may even lose confidence in the whole institution, and won’t want to obey any of the rules! That is why there are more Catholic women practising abortion than Protestant ones, and certainly more than LDS ones. When a religion dies, it can’t think straight any more. It strains at a gnat and looses sight of the “weightier matters”. Somebody once asked Joseph Smith once how he was able to govern such a large group of people. He replied, “I teach them correct principle, and they govern themselves”. But when a religion dies it gets stuck in the past, and loses the ability to adapt to new situations, and to identify and teach correct principles. When you teach people correct principles, they have an innate ability to recognize that it is correct, and want to obey it. The Catholic rule of priestly celibacy is another example of such crazy practices of the Catholic Church which has absolutely no sense at all. The “writing is on the wall” for the Catholics!
zerinus
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christianley
Guest
Come back in 10 years and tell me which religion is dying. I can tell you right now it won’t be the Catholic Church. Mormonism is already beginning to unravel. And talking about can’t think straight anymore – the Book of Mormon has been debunked to the satisfaction of almost anyone with a brain and yet the Mormon Church continues to insist on its historicity in the face of all the information available to the public. That’s why the number of resignations from the Mormon Church continues to grow while the numbers of converts continues to slow down. The life of the mother is very rarely an excuse to have an abortion although I do know a courageous Baptist woman near here who had her baby rather than begin cancer treatment. She lost her life to save the child.It is in line with what is reasonable. It is in line with what makes sense. The Catholics here want to tell me that the life of the foetus is more important than the life of the mother. If there is a choice between saving the life of the mother or the foetus, you save the foetus and kill the mother! That is a ludicrous suggestion. It is an absurd idea. It is criminal even. That is why Catholics don’t want to obey it. People have a sixth sense that tells them if a doctrine is right or wrong; and if they perceive that it is wrong they simply don’t obey it, or they rebel against it. The tragedy of that situation then is that they may then reject the would idea, and don’t want to obey it even under those circumstances when it is right that they should. They may even lose confidence in the whole institution, and won’t want to obey any of the rules! That is why there are more Catholic women practising abortion than Protestant ones, and certainly more than LDS ones. When a religion dies, it can’t think straight any more. It strains at a gnat and looses sight of the “weightier matters”. Somebody once asked Joseph Smith once how he was able to govern such a large group of people. He replied, “I teach them correct principle, and they govern themselves”. But when a religion dies it gets stuck in the past, and loses the ability to adapt to new situations, and to identify and teach correct principles. When you teach people correct principles, they have an innate ability to recognize that it is correct, and want to obey it. The Catholic rule of priestly celibacy is another example of such crazy practices of the Catholic Church which has absolutely no sense at all. The “writing is on the wall” for the Catholics!
zerinus
I think if you would take the time to look, you would see the Catholic Church is adding many more converts each year than the Mormon Church is.
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Karin
Guest
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Karin
Guest
wasnt their also a wonderful Catholic Saint that did this also…cant recall her name sorry.
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Karin
Guest
LOL!It is in line with what is reasonable. It is in line with what makes sense. The Catholics here want to tell me that the life of the foetus is more important than the life of the mother. If there is a choice between saving the life of the mother or the foetus, you save the foetus and kill the mother! That is a ludicrous suggestion. It is an absurd idea. It is criminal even. That is why Catholics don’t want to obey it. People have a sixth sense that tells them if a doctrine is right or wrong; and if they perceive that it is wrong they simply don’t obey it, or they rebel against it. The tragedy of that situation then is that they may then reject the would idea, and don’t want to obey it even under those circumstances when it is right that they should. They may even lose confidence in the whole institution, and won’t want to obey any of the rules! That is why there are more Catholic women practising abortion than Protestant ones, and certainly more than LDS ones. When a religion dies, it can’t think straight any more. It strains at a gnat and looses sight of the “weightier matters”. Somebody once asked Joseph Smith once how he was able to govern such a large group of people. He replied, “I teach them correct principle, and they govern themselves”. But when a religion dies it gets stuck in the past, and loses the ability to adapt to new situations, and to identify and teach correct principles. When you teach people correct principles, they have an innate ability to recognize that it is correct, and want to obey it. The Catholic rule of priestly celibacy is another example of such crazy practices of the Catholic Church which has absolutely no sense at all. The “writing is on the wall” for the Catholics!
zerinus
Oh boy Z you really have gone off the deep end…anything to justify the GENOCIDE/MURDER of another human-being (one that can not even defend itself)…you have also gone from personal attacks to attacking the Church as a whole…:nope:
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Karin
Guest
also mormons do not just preform abortions to save the moms life…this is their POLICY…
Abortion: “There is no excuse for abortion unless the life of the mother is seriously threatened” (*Gospel Principles *[a 1988 basic manual for church members], 241.) "There is seldom any excuse for abortion. The only exceptions are when (1) pregnancy has resulted from incest or rape; (2) the life or health of the woman is in jeopardy in the opinion of competent medical authority; or (3) the fetus is known, by competent medical authority, to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth" (Gospel Principles [1992], 251.) Bowing yet again to societal pressures, the Mormon Church, between 1988 and 1992, discovered additional excuses to permit the killing of the unborn. Very few Mormons realize their tightly “pro-life” church offers such loopholes.
So since when is incest or rape a serious threat to a woman?
Since when is having a child with birth defects a serious threat to a woman?
Abortion: “There is no excuse for abortion unless the life of the mother is seriously threatened” (*Gospel Principles *[a 1988 basic manual for church members], 241.) "There is seldom any excuse for abortion. The only exceptions are when (1) pregnancy has resulted from incest or rape; (2) the life or health of the woman is in jeopardy in the opinion of competent medical authority; or (3) the fetus is known, by competent medical authority, to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth" (Gospel Principles [1992], 251.) Bowing yet again to societal pressures, the Mormon Church, between 1988 and 1992, discovered additional excuses to permit the killing of the unborn. Very few Mormons realize their tightly “pro-life” church offers such loopholes.
So since when is incest or rape a serious threat to a woman?
Since when is having a child with birth defects a serious threat to a woman?
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