LDS Question - Could you explain any doctrine about Satan?

[Xavierlives]

It was said on a previous thread that Satan can overcome saints.

I’m not sure I have a complete understanding of the Mormon thoughts on Satan and so I’m hoping for some clarification.

Some scripture used to show Satan has this authority over Christians was Rev 13:7-8
Daniel 7:21-21-25.

 

[Xavierlives]

Well, this is not all encompassing, but I thought I would throw together a brief outline of some of the things I know to be true about Satan:

Names and Titles:

1. Father of Lies - John 8:44
2. Murderer - John 8:44
3. Beelzebub - Matt. 12:27
4. Belial - 2 Cor. 6:15
5. prince of this world - John 12:31; 14:30
6. god of this world - 2 Cor. 4:4
7. he who has the power of death - Heb. 2:14
8. Evil one - 1 John. 5:19
9. Tempter - 1 Thes. 3:5
10. dragon - Rev. 12:3
11. serpent - Rev. 12:9
12. prince of the power of air - Eph. 2:2
13. Satan
14. Devil

Power and authority over non-Christians

1. He binds their minds - 2 Cor. 4:4
2. He steals the truth from their hearts - Luke 8:12

Power and authority over Christians

1. He tries to thwart the work of Christ and Christians - Matt 13:38-39
2. He tempts - Act 5:3; 1 Cor. 7:5
3. He hinders our work - 1 Thes. 2:18
4. He accuses and slanders us - Rev. 12:10
5. He persecutes - Rev. 2:10

Christians power over Satan

1. Jesus has overcome this world - John 16:33
2. Jesus’ intercession - John 17:15
3. We should put on the armor to defend against - Eph. 6:11-18
4. We should take a stand against him - James 4:7
5. We should be on guard - 1 Pet. 5:8
6. We overcome evil with good - Romans 12:21

Now to the two mentioned scriptures:

Evan says Revelation and Daniel say Satan will have the authority to make war with the saints and to overcome them. I agree there will be a time where saints are overcome (in war), but I do see this as a present authority. Are we living in the time of the Antichrist? (Because the antecedant to “him” in these verses is the Antichrist, not Satan.)

 

[Xavierlives]

Now, for some reason I thought this would be something the LDS folks would want to talk about.

Hrmph.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’ve been told, by Mormons, that they believe Jesus and Satan are ‘spirit brothers’.

 

[alfred_gani]

Prodigal Son1 Re: LDS Question - Could you explain any doctrine about Satan?

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I’ve been told, by Mormons, that they believe Jesus and Satan are ‘spirit brothers’.

hahahahahaha

 

[Xavierlives]

Prodigal Son1 Re: LDS Question - Could you explain any doctrine about Satan?

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I’ve been told, by Mormons, that they believe Jesus and Satan are ‘spirit brothers’.

hahahahahaha

Yeah. I didn’t really know about the “Spirit brothers” concept until a few months ago. Which really made me want to know more about how Mormons view Satan.

It appears that maybe they haven’t formulated any doctrine about Satan. I’ll do some research next week on it if we don’t hear anything.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Well, this is not all encompassing, but I thought I would throw together a brief outline of some of the things I know to be true about Satan:

Names and Titles:

1. Father of Lies - John 8:44
2. Murderer - John 8:44
3. Beelzebub - Matt. 12:27
4. Belial - 2 Cor. 6:15
5. prince of this world - John 12:31; 14:30
6. god of this world - 2 Cor. 4:4
7. he who has the power of death - Heb. 2:14
8. Evil one - 1 John. 5:19
9. Tempter - 1 Thes. 3:5
10. dragon - Rev. 12:3
11. serpent - Rev. 12:9
12. prince of the power of air - Eph. 2:2
13. Satan
14. Devil

Power and authority over non-Christians

1. He binds their minds - 2 Cor. 4:4
2. He steals the truth from their hearts - Luke 8:12

Power and authority over Christians

1. He tries to thwart the work of Christ and Christians - Matt 13:38-39
2. He tempts - Act 5:3; 1 Cor. 7:5
3. He hinders our work - 1 Thes. 2:18
4. He accuses and slanders us - Rev. 12:10
5. He persecutes - Rev. 2:10

Christians power over Satan

1. Jesus has overcome this world - John 16:33
2. Jesus’ intercession - John 17:15
3. We should put on the armor to defend against - Eph. 6:11-18
4. We should take a stand against him - James 4:7
5. We should be on guard - 1 Pet. 5:8
6. We overcome evil with good - Romans 12:21

Now to the two mentioned scriptures:

Evan says Revelation and Daniel say Satan will have the authority to make war with the saints and to overcome them. I agree there will be a time where saints are overcome (in war), but I do see this as a present authority. Are we living in the time of the Antichrist? (Because the antecedant to “him” in these verses is the Antichrist, not Satan.)

Satan only has power and authority over those who allow him to have it. He doesn’t inherently have power and authority over us humans.

Peace,

MW

 

[Xavierlives]

Satan only has power and authority over those who allow him to have it. He doesn’t inherently have power and authority over us humans.

Peace,

MW

Well, I think I agree with you. What is your opinion about Job?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Well, I think I agree with you. What is your opinion about Job?

I don’t follow you.

But, to reiterate my point from before:

Satan doesn’t own your soul, mind, body or spirit. He cannot move your arms, legs or take over your mind - unless you allow him to do so. He can, however, tempt you, mislead you, lie to you, and be an all-around jerk to you. And, oddly enough, it’s allowed by God. In my private life that I don’t speak about here, many terrible things have happened to me. I’ve lost a lot mentally, emotionally and financially.

However, that doesn’t mean that Satan or demons control me, have “power” over me or “authority” over me. I’m a human being, made in the image and likeness of God. No angel or demon can say that. If, however, I were to willingly submit myself to demons and/or Satan or any number of pagan gods, then I would be subject unto them and give them the power and authority to control my life. I can promise you that the day will never come.

I don’t know if that makes my position more clear or not.

Peace…

MW

 

[Xavierlives]

I don’t follow you.

But, to reiterate my point from before:

Satan doesn’t own your soul, mind, body or spirit. He cannot move your arms, legs or take over your mind - unless you allow him to do so. He can, however, tempt you, mislead you, lie to you, and be an all-around jerk to you. And, oddly enough, it’s allowed by God. In my private life that I don’t speak about here, many terrible things have happened to me. I’ve lost a lot mentally, emotionally and financially.

However, that doesn’t mean that Satan or demons control me, have “power” over me or “authority” over me. I’m a human being, made in the image and likeness of God. No angel or demon can say that. If, however, I were to willingly submit myself to demons and/or Satan or any number of pagan gods, then I would be subject unto them and give them the power and authority to control my life. I can promise you that the day will never come.

I don’t know if that makes my position more clear or not.

Peace…

MW

Well, I was trying to get a feel your thoughts on the authority we see being granted to Satan to test Job. If we see this interaction (and Jesus confirms it in the Book of John) then we see Satan is only given authority from God. This is a powerful idea because we know that our God has authority over Satan. Our God is bigger than Satan. We can petition God about Satan and God will listen to us.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Well, I was trying to get a feel your thoughts on the authority we see being granted to Satan to test Job. If we see this interaction (and Jesus confirms it in the Book of John) then we see Satan is only given authority from God. This is a powerful idea because we know that our God has authority over Satan. Our God is bigger than Satan. We can petition God about Satan and God will listen to us.

Xavierlives,

I think the problem is the idea of power and authority. We have different ideas about what that really is.

I don’t see Satan’s dialogue with God and the subsequent attacks from Satan upon Job as an issue of power or authority. God obviously gave Satan permission to harm Job. However, in and of himself, Satan had no authority or power to do so. If he had that power, he would not need permission by God to harm him.

I won’t really speak to my beliefs about Job, God and Satan and this episode in Scripture. My beliefs about what transpired, the nature of God and Satan, etc. would lead away from the topic. And, my beliefs about these things are not in line with Catholic teaching.

Satan is still a spiritual being, not a material being. As such, humans have more power than he does, for we are both material and spiritual beings. Nothing could convince me that I’m on a lower totem pole than the Devil. To me he’s a dog on a leash - God’s leash. As such, I have no fear of him. He’s the one who should be in fear.

Peace…

MW

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavierlives,

I think the problem is the idea of power and authority. We have different ideas about what that really is.

I don’t see Satan’s dialogue with God and the subsequent attacks from Satan upon Job as an issue of power or authority. God obviously gave Satan permission to harm Job. However, in and of himself, Satan had no authority or power to do so. If he had that power, he would not need permission by God to harm him.

Exactly my point. Satan has no independent authority. He seeks his authority from God and our all-powerful God is the one in control. Satan would like to hide this point, but the truth is seen so many times.

I won’t really speak to my beliefs about Job, God and Satan and this episode in Scripture. My beliefs about what transpired, the nature of God and Satan, etc. would lead away from the topic. And, my beliefs about these things are not in line with Catholic teaching.

Well, if you don’t want to talk about it I’ll respect that, but this is a non-Catholics area of CAF and the thread is about Satan (now granted it is aimed at LDS) but anyone can join.

Satan is still a spiritual being, not a material being. As such, humans have more power than he does, for we are both material and spiritual beings. Nothing could convince me that I’m on a lower totem pole than the Devil. To me he’s a dog on a leash - God’s leash. As such, I have no fear of him. He’s the one who should be in fear.

Peace…

MW

Hmm… I’ll think about that tonight.

 

[zerinus]

It was said on a previous thread that Satan can overcome saints.

I’m not sure I have a complete understanding of the Mormon thoughts on Satan and so I’m hoping for some clarification.

Some scripture used to show Satan has this authority over Christians was Rev 13:7-8
Daniel 7:21-21-25.

Satan cannot “overcome saints,” unless saints stop being saints, and yield to the temptations of the devil.

 

[zach_dunn]

Satan cannot “overcome saints,” unless saints stop being saints, and yield to the temptations of the devil.

Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but I’ve heard that Mormons believe that the Father preferred Jesus’ plan of salvation for earth and this was the reason Lucifer rebelled against God, is this true? Once again I’d like to point out that this is simply hearsay.

 

[zerinus]

Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but I’ve heard that Mormons believe that the Father preferred Jesus’ plan of salvation for earth and this was the reason Lucifer rebelled against God, is this true?

Not accurately stated, but more or less. Traditional Christianity believes that Satan is a fallen angel, and so do we. The question is, how did he fall, and why did he fall? That is a question to which traditional Christianity does not have a clear answer, but Mormonism does. We believe we know what was the cause of Satan’s downfall. God the Father had predetermined the plan of salvation through Jesus Christ from the beginning. Satan wanted to supplant the Father and the Son by proposing an alternative plan of salvation for mankind that God rejected. Then Satan rebelled, and was cast down, became a fallen angel. If you have another explanation for the fall of Satan, I like to know. We got ours by revelation; I don’t know about yours.

Once again I’d like to point out that this is simply hearsay.

That is your opinion. You are entitled to it. But we respectfully disagree.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Not accurately stated, but more or less. Traditional Christianity believes that Satan is a fallen angel, and so do we. The question is, how did he fall, and why did he fall? That is a question to which traditional Christianity does not have a clear answer, but Mormonism does. We believe we know what was the cause of Satan’s downfall. God the Father had predetermined the plan of salvation through Jesus Christ from the beginning. Satan wanted to supplant the Father and the Son by proposing an alternative plan of salvation for mankind that God rejected. Then Satan rebelled, and was cast down, became a fallen angel. If you have another explanation for the fall of Satan, I like to know. We got ours by revelation; I don’t know about yours.

So it was a ‘dispute’ between ‘brothers’, Jesus and Satan, similar to Cain and Abel?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Exactly my point. Satan has no independent authority. He seeks his authority from God and our all-powerful God is the one in control. Satan would like to hide this point, but the truth is seen so many times.

True, he has no independent power or authority. Think about what you said here in your second sentence. He seeks permission by God to do things. And God is in control. Remember that it was God who sent an “evil spirit” unto King Saul which troubled him. David had to play his harp to calm him down.

Well, if you don’t want to talk about it I’ll respect that, but this is a non-Catholics area of CAF and the thread is about Satan (now granted it is aimed at LDS) but anyone can join.

My views would be offensive to you and other Catholics, therefore I don’t wish to go into detail about them. I have enough respect for you, your fellow Catholics and the forum to keep some views to myself.

Hmm… I’ll think about that tonight.

Yes, think about it. You and I are much more than is believed by most religions.

EDIT: I didn’t realize you were protestant until just now. So, ignore my statement about “your fellow Catholics”. I apologize for the error.

Peace…

MW

 

[zach_dunn]

That is your opinion. You are entitled to it. But we respectfully disagree.

I think you misunderstood me, what I was calling hearsay was the doctrine as I heard it, I wasn’t saying the doctrine in itself was hearsay . . . even though I believe it to be false.

 

[zach_dunn]

Not accurately stated, but more or less. Traditional Christianity believes that Satan is a fallen angel, and so do we. The question is, how did he fall, and why did he fall? That is a question to which traditional Christianity does not have a clear answer, but Mormonism does. We believe we know what was the cause of Satan’s downfall. God the Father had predetermined the plan of salvation through Jesus Christ from the beginning. Satan wanted to supplant the Father and the Son by proposing an alternative plan of salvation for mankind that God rejected. Then Satan rebelled, and was cast down, became a fallen angel. If you have another explanation for the fall of Satan, I like to know. We got ours by revelation; I don’t know about yours.

The orthodox Christian position is by revelation:

Isaiah 14:12-15
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations? And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like the most High. But yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, into the depth of the pit.

Satan (Lucifer) believed he could be God himself, so God cast him down to hell, but not without a fight [cf. Rev 12:7-9].

 

[wyp8riot]

I think you misunderstood me, what I was calling hearsay was the doctrine as I heard it, I wasn’t saying the doctrine in itself was hearsay . . . even though I believe it to be false.

I understood you when i read that.