LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[catholic-rcia]

I have a question for you Parker

In your Church, do you study the cloud of witnesses spoken of in the Scriptures?
Those Saints spoken of in revelations?
If they have not been exposed to you or others…why not?

Here is the Saint that brought me to Christ Parker. I have taken his Christian name. The link below has the story. Keep in mind, my wife has French, Mohawk and Huron in her blood, as do her ancestors. This is how the faith has been spread for 2000 years….

“the captives were paraded triumphantly from village to village, made to run the gauntlet, and subjected to hideous torture. The Mohawks pulled out their hair and beards, cut slices of flesh from them–which they roasted and ate in front of them-“-

http://utahmission.com/pages/cJouges_page.html

Let me know when you are done reading about Black Robe. I have a question for you

Rich
www.utahmisison.com

www.chooseyourcross.com

 

[ParkerD]

Rich,
I might as well ask if your wife has any knowledge through her ancestry, of the legends among them of their origins and other legends from the founding generations of their people?

Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[Javl]

To All LDS:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When Jesus established His Church, and the Kingdom, the old law no longer held. He, as
God, could “fulfill”, complete, abrogate, etc. the old law. He gave us a new commandment and a new everlasting covenant. In proof of this, He gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom.
Now ,we all know that whoever possesses the keys to a house is the master of that house. He can admit who he will and exclude who he will. Jesus made Peter the master of His house here on earth and the authority to rule it. This authority did not end with Peter but has been passed on to his successors. If not, then why did Jesus bother at all to establish a Church without passing on the authority to rule it.

And as if this were not enough, to make it clear that Peter was to rule for Jesus, He also
gave Peter ( and his successors ) the power to “bind and to loose”. The decisions that
Peter ( and his successors ) make acting as the steward or vicar of Christ will be, and
are, ratified in Heaven. Jesus Himself will ratify these decisions ( per His words ). To say, or do, otherwise is to deny and reject Jesus’ words. ( Ref: Matthew 16:18-19 )

Therefore, the Catholic Church DID NOT apostasize at all as is claimed, but has continued the same, unchanged, down through the ages.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[catholic-rcia]

Rich,
I might as well ask if your wife has any knowledge through her ancestry, of the legends among them of their origins and other legends from the founding generations of their people?

Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving.

First / Did you read his story?
Isaac Jogues / 16O7 - 1646

I will respond to the new questions about legends, but it would be admirable for you Parker to respond to the ones I first posed to you directly. Here they are again.

In your Church, do you study the cloud of witnesses spoken of in the Scriptures?
Those Saints spoken of in revelations?
If they have not been exposed to you or others…why not?

‘Days before his murder in 1980 Archbishop Romero told a reporter, "You can tell the people that if they succeed in killing me, that I forgive and bless those who do it. Hopefully, they will realize they are wasting their time. A bishop will die, but the church of God, which is the people, will never perish."
onlineministries.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/romero.html

 

[ParkerD]

[First / Did you read his story?
Isaac Jogues / 16O7 - 1646

I will respond to the new questions about legends, but it would be admirable for you Parker to respond to the ones I first posed to you directly. Here they are again.

In your Church, do you study the cloud of witnesses spoken of in the Scriptures?
Those Saints spoken of in revelations?
If they have not been exposed to you or others…why not?

Rich,
I did read, but had misgivings about responding to your questions since we view things so differently. But, here you go:

Here are the pertinent verses:

1–Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Paul was speaking about the “cloud of witnesses” of whom he had just written in the previous part of the epistle (Hebrews 11), which emphasized the faith of so many earlier prophets and some of the experiences recorded in Judges. Yes, we study those witnesses, and in fact have more knowledge about the prophet Abraham than any other religion has. We don’t take verse four from Hebrews 12 and assume people have to “resist unto blood” in order to be a witness of Christ and of His resurrection and in order to “strive against sin”. We also study all the witnesses of the prophets and apostles recorded in the Bible. Among my favorites are the witnesses of Isaiah and of Peter and of John, as well as of Paul.

2-- Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
Rev. 13: 7, 10
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
• • •
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The passage in Revelation 8 refers to all the righteous who had died and who plead with God for His will to be done and for the blessings of the gospel to go to their ancestors and their posterity. It also refers to the following:

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

But note that Revelation 13:7 says that a beast will be allowed to have power to “make war with the saints, and to overcome them”–that is a prophecy that alludes to the impact of all of the strife and contention that overcame the righteousness of the people in the early church after the days of the apostles.

There are several excellent passages in the Book of Mormon that speak of the “saints” within the early church and some subsequently who suffered persecution and will be rewarded for their faith and being valiant in their testimony of the Lord, Jesus Christ, despite the persecution they endured. We certainly can learn from their examples, since we have a lot of enduring and learning patience to do in our day. But at least we endure spiritual “warfare” rather than the kinds of physical persecution they endured.

Peace to you and all, Rich.

 

[Jay53]

But note that Revelation 13:7 says that a beast will be allowed to have power to “make war with the saints, and to overcome them”–that is a prophecy that alludes to the impact of all of the strife and contention that overcame the righteousness of the people in the early church after the days of the apostles.

I’m just curious about all of your interpretations of Revelation. Who determines what these passages refer to? I could easily interpret Revelation 13:7 as referring to Joseph Smith and the early LDS Church as being the beast who blasphemed God’s name (by referring to Him as an exalted man) and was “allowed to wage war with the saints” (the Catholic Church) and allowed to overcome them (by establishing their church and spreading their falsehoods). (All parentheses are mine.) Anyhow, can you then see how I can come up with a completely different interpretation? So, I’m just curious as to how you arrived at your interpretation - is this something in the Book of Mormon?

Thanks.

And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, (R)those who dwell in heaven.

7It was also given to him to (S)make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over (T)every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

8All who (U)dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone (V)whose name has not been [a]written (W)from the foundation of the world in the (X)book of life of (Y)the Lamb who has been slain. biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013:1-10&version=NASB

 

[ParkerD]

I’m just curious about all of your interpretations of Revelation. Who determines what these passages refer to? I could easily interpret Revelation 13:7 as referring to Joseph Smith and the early LDS Church as being the beast who blasphemed God’s name (by referring to Him as an exalted man) and was “allowed to wage war with the saints” (the Catholic Church) and allowed to overcome them (by establishing their church and spreading their falsehoods). (All parentheses are mine.) Anyhow, can you then see how I can come up with a completely different interpretation? So, I’m just curious as to how you arrived at your interpretation - is this something in the Book of Mormon?

Thanks.

Hi, Jay53, Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family,

There are many insights into those passages within the Book of Mormon, but also within the Bible. Here are some direct insights given in the Book of Mormon through a vision that Nephi had:

1 Nephi 13:1 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld many nations and kingdoms.
2 And the angel said unto me: What beholdest thou? And I said: I behold many nations and kingdoms.
3 And he said unto me: These are the nations and kingdoms of the Gentiles.
4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.
5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.
6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.
7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.
8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.
9 And also for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of God, and bring them down into captivity.

It is important to understand that the word “church” as used by the angel would not mean a religious organization, but a philosophy and an ideology that “slayeth the saints of God” and had unrighteous motives–the first instance in the history of the early church being the Roman empire, which persecuted the early church relentlessly and had the very attributes noted by the angel. Those kinds of philosophies and ideologies continued even after the fall of the Roman empire, but surely the Roman empire was the beginning of the fulfillment of that vision.

Nephi also says that the “house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” (1 Nephi 11:35) So the broad reaction and persecution (such as the martyrdom of Stephen) by the Jewish leaders to the growing early church was also fulfillment of the prophecy and vision of John and of Nephi that the beast would “make war with the saints to overcome them…” That also ties to the parable by the Savior (Matthew 21:38) that the Jews would “seize on his inheritance” and that “the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” (21:43)

 

[catholic-rcia]

I’m just curious about all of your interpretations of Revelation. Who determines what these passages refer to? I could easily interpret Revelation 13:7 as referring to Joseph Smith and the early LDS Church as being the beast who blasphemed God’s name (by referring to Him as an exalted man) and was “allowed to wage war with the saints” (the Catholic Church) and allowed to overcome them (by establishing their church and spreading their falsehoods). (All parentheses are mine.) Anyhow, can you then see how I can come up with a completely different interpretation? So, I’m just curious as to how you arrived at your interpretation - is this something in the Book of Mormon?

Thanks.

I see it as well, as Jay sees it. It’s easy to look at scriptures like these and point fingers…Its hard to look in the mirror and point at myself. But I am a sinner like the rest, so in so many ways it is speaking to me. God knows my heart and helps me along the way with Eucharist and Confession.

Parker:
“Yes, we study those witnesses, and in fact have more knowledge about the prophet Abraham than any other religion has”

This interests me more than everything else Parker, what you have written here. Did you right this?

It has a familiar ring of pride. I have this in me as well, confession keeps it in check.

It’s as if Joseph Smith wrote it. Did he?

*I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. *Joseph Smith

---

“We have more knowledge about the prophet Abraham than any other religion has”

---

**Interesting, Think about it **

---

I would go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and put in Pride, boasting, sin, the Fall etc, and see what it says. It really helped me. Don’t get me wrong…I am not above it. Just understand the game a bit.

As to the Scriptures you posted and commented on I have found it good to go to the source that wrote it down, rather than have someone else tell me what my own diary is saying about me. Do you know what I mean here? When I am at Mass I am with all the Saints and Angels, the heavens do open up, big family. (Cloud of witnesses) The one thing they all had in common was true humility. love.
They understood their role as servant, to put them selves on the bottom, not to think of themselves as better than even one other soul. The peace that binds them is found at the very foot of the cross, all spin stops right there.

---

What is refreshing about the Church Christ established is that we don’t have to talk about the fall of another’s to place ourselves above it. We are Church simply because we are all together fallen. We are a Church because we need Jesus to take the reigns. Again His Cross. We don’t have to be good enough for him to love Him. We come to Him with sin and empty arms. He simply embraces us and tells us “I know” I love you, and I AM always with you. We will get through this together……

---

Rich
**www.utahmission.com **
**www.chooseyourcross.com **

 

[Javl]

Parker:
“Yes, we study those witnesses, and in fact have more knowledge about the prophet Abraham than any other religion has."

Parker:
I’m astounded that you would make such a statement. Does the LDs know more than the Jews about Abraham? After all, Abraham is THE father of their nation. Who else would know Abraham as the Jews do?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Jay53]

Hi, Jay53, Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family,

There are many insights into those passages within the Book of Mormon, but also within the Bible. Here are some direct insights given in the Book of Mormon through a vision that Nephi had:

1 Nephi 13:1 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld many nations and kingdoms.
2 And the angel said unto me: What beholdest thou? And I said: I behold many nations and kingdoms.
3 And he said unto me: These are the nations and kingdoms of the Gentiles.
4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.
5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.
6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.
7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.
8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.
9 And also for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of God, and bring them down into captivity.

It is important to understand that the word “church” as used by the angel would not mean a religious organization, but a philosophy and an ideology that “slayeth the saints of God” and had unrighteous motives–the first instance in the history of the early church being the Roman empire, which persecuted the early church relentlessly and had the very attributes noted by the angel. Those kinds of philosophies and ideologies continued even after the fall of the Roman empire, but surely the Roman empire was the beginning of the fulfillment of that vision.

Nephi also says that the “house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” (1 Nephi 11:35) So the broad reaction and persecution (such as the martyrdom of Stephen) by the Jewish leaders to the growing early church was also fulfillment of the prophecy and vision of John and of Nephi that the beast would “make war with the saints to overcome them…” That also ties to the parable by the Savior (Matthew 21:38) that the Jews would “seize on his inheritance” and that “the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” (21:43)

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family, too, Parker!

Your explanation doesn’t help me a whole lot, mainly because your support of your interpretation is based on this Nephi, for whom I don’t believe there is any proof of his existence other than in the Book of Mormon. Is that correct?

And again, you are using the parable in Matthew 21:38 which does not support the LDS Church at all, but does support the Catholic Church. The kingdom was taken from the tenants (Jews) because they killed the son (Jesus) and was given to others (the Catholic Church). I still don’t understand why you think this parable gives any support to the LDS Church.

Additionally, there is nothing in the Nephi visions which indicates the Catholic Church as being the object of the vision. It could just have easily been a prophecy of the rise of Islam, particularly verse 5, considering the practice in Islam of taking sex slaves from among their captives and of the practice of dhimmitude in Muslim lands.

I guess I probably need to ask the same question of Mormons that I asked of Muslims which is: Why do you believe in the prophethood of Joseph Smith when he and his teachings contradicted previous scriptures? (I understand that for both Mormons and Muslims who have been “born into” the faith, that those teachings are all that they know and so, it is, in part, simply a matter of faith.) But given that Jesus told us to watch out for false prophets and St. Paul warned us that even if an angel preached a different gospel that we should not believe him, I don’t understand why people believed this different gospel.

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Matthew 7:15

8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Galations 1:8-9

So, I guess I am curious as to why, when Joseph Smith came along and claimed to be a prophet and was preaching a different gospel which contradicted what the Apostles had taught and what had been passed down through the Church, that people accepted that? In what way was his claim to prophethood any more convincing than Muhammad’s in the 7th century?

 

[Zundrah]

I understand how it is presented, the apostles didn’t continue their ranks and the church fell into apostacy. I think part of the LDS story I haven’t ever heard is how the first Church failed. If the Catholic Church is here then how is that a failure or apostacy?

I’ve been asking this question for over a year now, and trust me, you will never get a legitimate answer…

 

[Javl]

I’ve been asking this question for over a year now, and trust me, you will never get a legitimate answer…

Zundrah:

If you want an answer to your question, other than from an LDS, read the explanation given in “Halley’s Bible Handbook”. A more ridiculous and ludicrous explanation I have never come across. It’s too long to present here. It’s surprising that the LDS have not picked up on it and used it. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Zundrah]

Zundrah:

If you want an answer to your question, other than from an LDS, read the explanation given in “Halley’s Bible Handbook”. A more ridiculous and ludicrous explanation I have never come across. It’s too long to present here. It’s surprising that the LDS have not picked up on it and used it. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Why don’t you copy paste and then PM it to me? It sounds interesting.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker:
I’m astounded that you would make such a statement. Does the LDS know more than the Jews about Abraham? After all, Abraham is THE father of their nation. Who else would know Abraham as the Jews do?

Shalom Aleichem

JAVL,
When Abraham was in Egypt, he taught the Egyptians and also left a record on papyrus which the Jews didn’t have in their possession. It provides a great deal more insights into his life and the knowledge he had of both astronomy and the purpose of life, than the Jews have had available to them. But, obviously you won’t believe that, nor would the Jews generally. He learned that he was foreordained, chosen before he was born to be a leader and to hold the priesthood. His father and grandfather had been practicing false religion, and he sought the blessings of true religion and true revelation from God. He truly became a key example of faith for all of us to follow, and through him and his posterity all the nations of the earth will be blessed.

 

[ParkerD]

I’ve been asking this question for over a year now, and trust me, you will never get a legitimate answer…

Jennifer,
I hope you are well. It would be best to read the New Testament and Isaiah through Malachi in the Old Testament, and figure out the answer for yourself, like the Reformers did.

Peace, all. I’ve wanted to give you an opportunity to think about the potential upside. I assure you there is no downside to figuring these things out for yourself. It really ends up depending on what you want–you’ll get what you deep-down want from the religious aspect of your life, so seek Christ and the Holy Spirit, and read, read, read the Bible, and it will bode well for each and all.

 

[catholic-rcia]

About Abraham and the papyri

With a heavy heart I must say it is false.

There is no loss here, only gain. When you cut through all the deceit and lies given to this wonderful people what can be found is Christ? No lose…just amazement and awe when you hit on to the real story of Jesus. Who He is, what he offers each and every one of us.

There is no pride in His message as He Himself offered no resistance to the world. We are His, His people who have all gone astray. He came to bring us back home, a home that we would all leave in search of our own center. Some find Him as their center and in that find life, more life than they could have ever imagined. Looking foreword to the wonders in store but living out life to its fullest right here, right now. Its not I am right you are wrong, rather do you need a hand, do you need help, do you need to be loved…here I am. We as Catholics can see others in a good light even in the darkest souls. Peter was loved by Jesus even after he denied Him three times. Paul came to know Jesus after he had had Christians put to death and turned his life around. Thomas who had to touch the wounds of Jesus before he would believe was embraced by Jesus even when he lacked faith. Judas left out of shame inflicted by Lucifer, not believing that Jesus could still love him….Jesus did still love him and would have taken him back in something must faster than a second. These were not Saints…they were ordinary people like you and I. They had an experience of Jesus!

Parker It’s not about being with those who think like us, who act like us, rather Jesus wants us to be with the lost, with the unbelievers, with the outcast and such. Because he lets us share in His mission of saving sinners from themselves. He allows us to do this for Him, with Him…He asks us to do it for Him out of love for Him and others. Parker you know in your heart, truth is truth and it cannot be hidden through lies and deceit. The Catholic Church, only because of Jesus contains the truth about Jesus and His mission, His teachings, His Passion and His glorious resurrection. God does not lie in order to bring about a good; a lie is never a good thing. When he told mankind not to eat from the tree in the middle of the garden he meant it. But He also knew what would happen; he always knew He would have to send His Son, the Word to us, to save us.

When we were first created as a whole, the human race as one, as the Father and the Son is one we were indeed created perfect. Not in a sense of keeping a perfect home or showing up on time or success as we know it. Perfect in love, One with the God.

The plan of salvation is simple. Its about getting back to the garden of Eden, doing it right and never wanting to leave Him again. The story of the prodigal son is about all of us. Its just that simple. Study the Cross……it is the Tree of life spoken about. Its message contains all of the answers we all search for. With all of the struggles my family goes through every day I feel as if I had won the lottery. I was lucky to attend one RCIA meeting 11 years ago in Logan Utah. It’s all real.

God Bless
Rich
www.utahmisison.com
www.chooseyourcross.com

 

[Javl]

JAVL,
When Abraham was in Egypt, he taught the Egyptians and also left a record on papyrus which the Jews didn’t have in their possession. It provides a great deal more insights into his life and the knowledge he had of both astronomy and the purpose of life, than the Jews have had available to them. But, obviously you won’t believe that, nor would the Jews generally. He learned that he was foreordained, chosen before he was born to be a leader and to hold the priesthood. His father and grandfather had been practicing false religion, and he sought the blessings of true religion and true revelation from God. He truly became a key example of faith for all of us to follow, and through him and his posterity all the nations of the earth will be blessed.

Thank you for your explanation. I guess that that information was/is available only to the LDS and no one else, or that the LDS was the only one to bother to obtain it? It still is an astounding statement.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Why don’t you copy paste and then PM it to me? It sounds interesting.

I would like to send it to you and others, but the size of the book and its spine prevents me from opening it fully to put on a copier. All I can say is that copies should be available either in your local library or in a Christian bookstore ( where I picked up my copy ).

P.S. Haven’t seen or talked to you in a while. How are you, and anything new?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

Thank you for your explanation. I guess that that information was/is available only to the LDS and no one else, or that the LDS was the only one to bother to obtain it? It still is an astounding statement.

Shalom Aleichem

JAVL,
Peace to you also. The knowledge that people receive in this life about spiritual matters, is generally going to be based on their faith and their desires. I think the Jews were perfectly content with the level of knowledge they had through the centuries. You will remember that they rejected Christ because they thought they understood the scriptures perfectly. The fact that they have not been in a position to learn more than their ancestors knew, century after century, about the gospel and God’s dealings with humankind on earth (including with Abraham), is not my fault–it’s their fault. That doesn’t mean they’re “bad people”–it just means they have what they want, spiritually speaking. God does not usually give more knowledge when it is not wanted.

Peace always, and much joy to you through following Christ as your knowledge leads you to follow Him.

 

[peary]

It has become obvious that the LDS cannot or is incapable of pointing to ONE historic event which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Catholic Church failed.

As an explanation, the only thing I have heard from LDS members is that Joseph Smith was told it was so by his ‘angel’. That, apparently, was (and is) good enough an explanation as any.

However, being an intelligent person, I find that hard to believe.