R
rmcmullan
Guest
I hope you’re not serious. Otherwise I’m going to have to demand proof that every single event since the Catholic Church started (whenever that was) proves that it didn’t fail.
- Status
J
Javl
Guest
I’m sorry Parker, but I have to disagree with you. The majority of Jews rejected Christ only because he said that He was the Son of God, therefore making Him equal to God ( which He is ). In their eyes this was considered blasphemy. It wasn’t so much as their being content with their laws. Many Jews complained because there was so many controlling their lives. Listening to the people, the Scribes and Scholars searched not only scripture but other documents to support these laws. In doing so, I’m sure they would have come across this document of the history of Abraham. The Essenes were meticulous in searching the scriptures and the history of the people/nation Israel. I’m sure that they came across this document and rejected it as spurious.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
J
Javl
Guest
We have asked for proof that the Catholic Church apostasized. We have yet to receive tangible proof. For proof that the Catholic Church did not apostisize, read Church history, not only by Catholics, but by unbiased non-Catholics. Our proof is that we are still here after 2000 years, still teaching the same truths that Jesus and the Apostles taught.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Okay, I should be able to either buy one from a shop or get it ordered for me. Thanks.
PAX DOMINI
Yeah, so much has happened. I now have a catechism, a New Jerusalem Bible, a Ignatius Catholic study Bible and several CD’s from Light House Catholic Media on the Eucharist/ Lamb’s supper and the Holy Rosary and a seminary on a guy and why he converted from being a Baptist minister. And plenty of Scott Hahn too! I’ve also attended RCIA! So, yeah, I guess you could say that alot has happened!
Are you proud of me? I am!
I think that in a nut shell, one could say that I am very Catholic now.
Z
Zundrah
Guest
A nice little light-hearted message to Mormons;
J
Javl
Guest
Boy! Most certainly I am proud of you! I praise the Lord for showing you the path home. Keep in mind though that the path to Heaven is narrow and rocky while the path to hell is wide and smooth. Please keep up the good work. You are in my prayers. God Bless.Okay, I should be able to either buy one from a shop or get it ordered for me. Thanks.
Yeah, so much has happened. I now have a catechism, a New Jerusalem Bible, a Ignatius Catholic study Bible and several CD’s from Light House Catholic Media on the Eucharist/ Lamb’s supper and the Holy Rosary and a seminary on a guy and why he converted from being a Baptist minister. And plenty of Scott Hahn too! I’ve also attended RCIA! So, yeah, I guess you could say that alot has happened!
Are you proud of me? I am!
I think that in a nut shell, one could say that I am very Catholic now.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Z
Zundrah
Guest
It’s all happened so quickly but it all happened for a reason. I’m so happy and will never give up seeking the truth since it is bountiful and abundant in the catholic teachings. I’ve never felt so happy in all my life.Boy! Most certainly I am proud of you! I praise the Lord for showing you the path home. Keep in mind though that the path to Heaven is narrow and rocky while the path to hell is wide and smooth. Please keep up the good work. You are in my prayers. God Bless.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
J
Javl
Guest
Your joy and happiness is catching. I’m also ecstatic for you. The Holy spirit is always at work guiding and teaching. But not everyone listens to him. I’m overjoyed that you did.
May God Bless you abundantly and keep you in his arms.
With Christian Love,
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Z
Zundrah
Guest
And the funniest thing is that it all happened by me joining CAF! If I hadn’t come here, this conversion wouldn’t have had an oppertunity to arise in my life. It is really all down to the good people here.Your joy and happiness is catching. I’m also ecstatic for you. The Holy spirit is always at work guiding and teaching. But not everyone listens to him. I’m overjoyed that you did.
May God Bless you abundantly and keep you in his arms.
With Christian Love,
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
X
Xavierlives
Guest
Wow. Now he is l33t.
Z
Zundrah
Guest
1 w4n7 70 74k3 k0mmUN10N
bu7 i H4V3 7o w4I7 uN7iL N3X7 y34R
P.2. T0 h3ll wIt T3H m0RM0n2
R
rmcmullan
Guest
And you have given no proof otherwise. And yet there were so many convinced of it, they could no longer tolerate what (the Catholic church) had become and started their own churches. Remember the Protestant Reformation. Guess what they were protesting?
Even you doesn’t-prove-anything claim of being around for 2K years is questionable. There have been many churches that grew from the early Christian church and divisions even within the Catholic church. As for teaching the same truths that Jesus and the Apostles taught, that’s a claim which wilts under even the briefest examination. All Bible-based religions, no matter how much the philosophically disagree, make the same claim. In the end it goes back to you can’t prove nuttin’. So don’t even make the claim.
B
banarick
Guest
You are asking him to prove a negative. When one makes a claim the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Since Mormons make the claim a total Apostasy it is their burden beyond a reasonable doubt. You have one Juror who does not see it as probable let alone beyond a reasonable doubt.Actually this thread has already talked about Jesus promising that the gates of hell would not prevail Mathew 16:18 and what the early Christians such as St Ignatius of Antioch and Clement taught. I do not see wilting flowers myself.
I have a question asked in good faith. What does the LDS Church mean by “Total” Does it mean everyone or everything? Or both?
J
Javl
Guest
Finally. Thank you for your answer. I, and others have presented proof galore, but all LDSs have rejected it as proof. We have admitted to the dark days of the Church and presented a legitimate explanation for it. It still cannot be denied, or proven otherwise ( many have tried and failed ), that the Catholic Church still teaches what Jesus and the Apostle have taught. You deny this and we have to deny your claim of apostacy since you also have presented no tangible proof.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
X
Xavierlives
Guest
R
rmcmullan
Guest
The burden of proof upon any claim is upon the person making the claim and so far you’ve claimed no apostasy occurred. Matt 16:18 is constantly trotted out and–well, not everybody agrees with the Catholic interpretation of this scripture. Do you really want to have the divinity of your church hanging on a possible interpretation of a single sentence in the New Testament? There are many similar statements alluding to the eventual triumph of the saints:
Actually this thread has already talked about Jesus promising that the gates of hell would not prevail Mathew 16:18 and what the early Christians such as St Ignatius of Antioch and Clement taught. I do not see wilting flowers myself.
I have a question asked in good faith. What does the LDS Church mean by “Total” Does it mean everyone or everything? Or both?
I don’t want to mistakenly convey the idea that I don’t respect the Catholic church–sorry if I give that impression. I have the greatest respect and was raised in a Catholic home and attended Catholic schools. All I’m saying is that it’s sort of a fruitless effort to demand or claim proof in what is essentially a matter of faith.
Also I am not familiar with any statement regarding a “Total” apostasy. Could you quote the one you’re referring to?
R
rmcmullan
Guest
I guess we need some sort of standard of proof. One man’s proof is another man’s pre-conceived notion.
I like this topic–it reminds me of a political party (admittedly a flawed analogy but let me continue) There’s a party platform and even though most party members support it, only to a matter of degree. Some will only support it 70%. But what happens when support drops–to 50% or only 30%? At what point can it be said that the party no longer is represented by its platform? Keep in mind, regardless of how low support drops, there’ll often be a few individuals that support it 100%.
The LDS teaching on apostasy refers specifically to the Apostolic leadership. It does not agree with Apostolic Succession because it maintains the office of the Apostle and Bishop to be very different. The Apostle oversees the church, the Bishop is a local leader. This loss of leadership did not totally corrupt the church, rather it “caused it to stumble.” As the Book of Mormon prophet Nephi said, “an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.”
Please note the LDS teaching of an apostasy is not meant in any way to cast any dispersions upon the early church or the Catholic churches that arose afterwards. It is just an acknowledgement that there were many martyrs and that Satan raged against them. And sadly, he scored a few victories. It is proper for all of Christianity (even Mormons!) to greatly revere the early saints and the founders of the early church–for their struggles against persecution and for searching out the light of the gospel and preserving it.
J
Javl
Guest
Then what you are saying is that for all those years inbetween there was no Church until God decided He made a mistake and chose Joseph Smith to restore the church almost 1200 years later? If this is so, then how come JS wasn’t the only He one decided to pick? Just about every man-made religion claims the same and each calls the other false. There’s a whole list making this claim. Which one of you, then, is telling the tuth?
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
R
rmcmullan
Guest
There’s quite a difference between the origins of the Protestant churches and the LDS church. None that I know of claimed to be visited by heavenly messengers (even the Father and Son) or the mantle of a prophet. None brought forth writings from an ancient people deeply devoted to a God they referred to as Jesus Christ, the Savior, but with origins in the Old World Jerusalem. None claim to have been ordained to the priesthood by the hand of a resurrected Peter, James and John or John the Baptist.
Of course these aren’t proofs but they’re either a burst of light from the heavens on a grand scale or a grandiose heresy. As the missionaries will say, you decide but make it a point of prayer. A point of study and prayer.
The actual LDS teaching on what we call the restoration is that after an early period of struggle against persecution, the church endured and evolved. But because of early victories of its enemies, there was “stumbling”. The Protestant movement was an effort for man to recover what had been lost during the early persecutions. The Protestants fled to America where they enjoyed real religious liberty and finally a restoration was possible. If you know much about the LDS history, even in the land of religious liberty, they had a very difficult time.
You’re Catholic and you don’t have to believe that, I just trying to answer your question regarding the timeline. A lot of people find it hard to believe that the church was allowed to languish for such a long time but I think it was because it had lost it original sacred leadership and allowed to become tainted with a degree of political power that it was unable to break free of its history.
Of course these aren’t proofs but they’re either a burst of light from the heavens on a grand scale or a grandiose heresy. As the missionaries will say, you decide but make it a point of prayer. A point of study and prayer.
The actual LDS teaching on what we call the restoration is that after an early period of struggle against persecution, the church endured and evolved. But because of early victories of its enemies, there was “stumbling”. The Protestant movement was an effort for man to recover what had been lost during the early persecutions. The Protestants fled to America where they enjoyed real religious liberty and finally a restoration was possible. If you know much about the LDS history, even in the land of religious liberty, they had a very difficult time.
You’re Catholic and you don’t have to believe that, I just trying to answer your question regarding the timeline. A lot of people find it hard to believe that the church was allowed to languish for such a long time but I think it was because it had lost it original sacred leadership and allowed to become tainted with a degree of political power that it was unable to break free of its history.
Z
Zundrah
Guest
y35, 17 15 1ND33D 4 K47h0l1C 7h1N9. JoO 9E7 jOOr phiR57 hOly KOMmUNIoN @ e457er, 8U7 I WoN7 8e 48LE 7O RecIeVE i7 CU2 I mI55ed 7eH pRo9R4M 7H@ Le4D2 Up 7o i7.
5O now I H4vE 7o w4i7 4 WholE ye4R!
I 485oLU7eLY 9U77Ed.
I u2E 7o 8e PRO7e574n7 only 4 moN7H2 49O. 5o i rE4lly W4N7 7hI2 kommunIoN 5o 7H@ i PhEEL kOmpLe7ElY K47hoLIc.
N0 k0MM3n7!? 50 j00 l1K3 73H m0rM0n5 7H3n? L0L
1 h4V3 4 M0rM0n PhR13nD WH0 0F73N h4R4Zz35 M3 70 k0nV3R7 70 H3R “b3l13f5”.
L0L 1nD33d, my L1TTl3 PHr13Nd.
(./)
(0.0)
(")(")
- Status