LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

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rmcmullan said:
You’re also missing another LDS point and that is what the church is. There hasn’t been any serious work that I’ve seen stating how the prophets and holy men of God were replaced by a church. Look in the Old Testament, there’s both a church and there are prophets as well.
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No there was no church in the O.T but we are not Jewish and we go by the N.T. And in the N.T. Jesus left us the Church. So unless you deny Christ I do not understand what you are looking for. Jesus said On the rock I will build my church and he did it. He also said it will never fail, and it hasn’t. Now if it was going to fall why would he said it would never fall then?
 
If there was no church in the old testament, why was there a Priesthood? The entire nation of Israel was His church and His temple was in Jerusalem. Before that, there was a temple and church in the wilderness.

What exactly do you think a church is?
 
I think people who haven’t seen any evidence of the early Church must be somewhere else.

There is abundant sources but if people have such difficulty recognizing anything, it is best to go to a class taught by professional catechists.

Taking bits and pieces is not what the Church is about…it is about the whole content.
 
rmcmullan said:
If there was no church in the old testament, why was there a Priesthood? The entire nation of Israel was His church and His temple was in Jerusalem. Before that, there was a temple and church in the wilderness.

What exactly do you think a church is?
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I don’t have to think what the Church is I know WHO the Church is. It is Jesus Christ. In the O.T they did not have a church they had the temple. Jesus told them he would tear down the temple and rebuild it in 3 days. They laughed at him. They did not realize that Jesus Christ was the temple and would rise again in three days. Now we have the Catholic Church. Made possible by our Lord and Savior.
 
KathleenGee said:
Rinnie,

Check out HebrewCatholic.org…and you will see how much the Catholic Church is the fulfillment of the faith of Israel.
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Thank-you Kathleen, I of course know all of this because have gone to a Catholic School and Church all of my life. But I will check this site out. You can never learn enough of our faith. We all can learn and learn and learn. Everyday!👍
 
You are welcome!

Dr. Scott Hahn was on EWTN the other day with Mike Aquilina regarding the image of the stone altar from Abraham to Saul, the imagery showing up throughout the Old Testament.

On the last parts of Revelation…you can envision the altar of the Mass…it is the first step from this earth into heaven…and we can enjoy heaven at Mass!
 
rmcmullan said:
If there was no church in the old testament, why was there a Priesthood? The entire nation of Israel was His church and His temple was in Jerusalem. Before that, there was a temple and church in the wilderness.

What exactly do you think a church is?
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Well, we see the Jewish priesthood and genology was maintained until Jesus’s arrival. Then in 70 (I think it was 70) the temple and the records were destroyed. So, we get a lineage up to Christ (which was required for the prophecy.

But Mormons don’t use this priesthood line. (or of they do, it is in name only). Because anyone can be a priest, where in the OT it had to come from Levi.
 
Anyone tribe be priests until they worshiped the Golden Calf…the Levites did not and were from then on the only tribe to serve this function. The Levites were the only ones not to fallen into idolatry.

The Levites each day went through the rituals of sacrifice and blood on behalf of the people.

The Catholic priests work through power given them from God through the sacerdotal ordination in the laying of hands by their bishop. They are presbyters, intercessors between God and man, and administrate the sacraments, exclusively reconciliation, the Eucharist, and healing…However, lay people can baptize in special occasions and participate in healing services. The bishop ordains and confirms people in their baptisms. The work of the priest is primarily mediator and sacramental and preaching the Word of God. The priest points us to God and away from idols and falsehoods.
 
So in order to protect the divinity of the Catholic church, you argue that there is no connection between the church and the prophets and priesthood of old?
 
The Catholic priesthood, the sacraments, the liturgy and altar, the fulfillment of the atonement of sin…all the earliest practices of Christian worship were in the Jewish milieu!

But also, Palestine in that time was heavily influenced by Hellenistic culture.

Christ and His disciples visited synagogues, gathering places of prayer for the Jews, but when the Jews added a malediction to their prayers against the followers of Christ around 80 A.D., the Jewish Christians had their own synagogues. St. James (the lesser) was probably the first head of the Church of Jerusalem. If you read the Liturgy of St. James, the text seems to have originated there.

At the beginning of the liturgy, the priest extends peace to the congregation who then answers…‘And with your spirit’. The priest blesses all, then asks God for peace and forgiveness of the whole world…which we also refer to, let me say the Latin, the Kyrie…Lord have mercy. The singers respond, ‘Holy God, holy mighty, have mercy on us.’…The priest then asks for blessing and protection…and the people respond with amen.

The liturgy then proceeds with readings from the Old and New Testaments. The next action of the liturgy is the dismissal of the unbaptized. The liturgy then goes into the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest beginning, 'The love of the Lord and Father, the grace of the Lord and Son, and the fellowship and the gift of the Holy Spirit be with us all. Response of the people: And with your spirit. Priest: Let us lift up our minds and our hearts. People: It is proper and right. The priest continues in praising God, and then the people respond: 'Holy, holy, holy; O Lord of hosts, heaven and earth are full of your glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.

The priest continues to praise the Lord Jesus Christ…the deacon prays…'For the remission of sins and life everlasting.
The priest says: Take, eat. This is my body; broken for you; and given for the remission of sins. People: Amen. Priest: In the same way, after supper, he took the cup with mixed wine and water (my comment, symbolizing the blood and water of baptism) and lifting his eyes to heaven and presenting it to you, his God and Father, he gave thanks and prayed and blessed it. He filled it with the Holy Spirit and gaveit to us his disciples, saying, Drinik this, all of you; this is my blood of the new covenant, shed for you and many, and given for the remission of sins. The people say amen.
The priest says, 'Do this in remembrance of me; for, as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death and confess his resurrection until he comes again. There are following belief proclaimed and confess and the Lord’s death and confess the resurrection… to the Rite of Communion.

The priest says the the prayer before the Communion: O Lord, our God, the heavenly bread, the life of the universe, I have sinned against heaven and before you, and I am not worthy to partake of your pure mysteries; but as a merciful God, make me worthy by your grace, without condemnation, to partake of your holy body and precious blood for the remission of sins, and life everlasting.
Then he distributes to the clergy, and then the deacons take the patens and the chalices for distribution to the people.

As you can see from the text, the priest fulfills the role of the ancient Levites who did not turn to idolatry but kept their eyes on God alone, the Levites performed the ancient blood sacrifices on their altars as atonement for sin…but the priests who followed Jesus as atonement for the remission of our sins on the altar and held on to the truth that the bread and wine became the body and blood of Jesus fulfill all former priests through the High Priest, Jesus Christ.

Note that the intent and tone and reverence of liturgy was the same then as it is today, never lost.

To say that the Church was lost after st. John the Evangelist when he even wrote to existing churches that would continue after his death, and to see the reference to the Mass in Revelation 22, just the text and reference here to Revelation should prove that the Church was founded on the Apostles, that the early church was Jewish, and the outward form changed when Jewish practices were abolished, abstaining from certain foods and circumcision. The word Catholic was drawn from the Hellenistic international influence of those times…
 
KathleenG, are you saying that the church that was before the Catholic church failed? That the gates of heck prevailed against it?
 
What I understood was that there was no church after the last apostle’s death, St. John…

Correct me, but from what another Mormon said, that the church that came about was false.

You have to get into historical, documented teachings…and they are vast, immense.

Another text, ‘From Age to Age’, by Edward Foley gives you the history of just liturgy. Both texts remark on the use of sacred vessels…but you should recognize the same spirit and tone in the liturgical text shared with you in your memory of having gone to Mass some time ago…you being a former Catholic, correct?

It is incredible the more I read and learn that the Catholic Church is the true church…

The key is to keep one’s eyes on the apostolic tradition!!.. Daily Mass is the biggest help and in time you are just drawn to good and solid material, spirituality.

my pastor gives homilies and always draws on history and people of the times on the passages of Scripture we are covering in the Liturgy of the Word.

This past century there was much experimentation and subsequent falling away…but many disciplines are being restored. There was a deliberate misinterpretation of Vatican II and a loss of vocations. We are getting more conversions, more are returning, and our priestly and religious vocations are starting to return.
 
Come back and do not deny yourself the Eucharist that gives you eternal life…now.
 
The Catholic Church rests on Jesus, His Word and Sacraments and He broke the power of death over us…we do not depend on people…If we did, the church just wouldn’t be.

Again, you need to get back to studying your Jewish/Catholic roots and documented history…and the common apostolic faith and the active worship of the Christians…it was centered on the Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ,…not an empty memorial ritual where bread and wine are thrown out after the services.

Again, it is Jesus Christ Who sustains the Church, always did and always will.
 
There is only one true Church, the Catholic Church. Christ sustains the Church…The gates of hell cannot prevail against Him …The apostles formed our church of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit…

There was never another church out there…

Church has different meanings…First it is the Bride of Christ, it is Christ Who lives within it, thus it is a sacrament in itself…

The Church is also the diocese…the head, its bishop who is in unity with the seat of Peter, the Holy Father.

Within a diocese, you have parishes, neighborhood churches, headed by a pastor under the bishop.

The Church is the pope in union with the bishops, and the bishops representing our faith.

There are different levels of truths with different weights and this is how people who do not accept as Christ’s church can misunderstand Sacred Tradition from ecclesial traditions; there is the universal catechism, there are encyclicals…all giving different weights…different degrees of truth…I may know the weight of some encyclicals but there are many I do not and would have to consult with a priest.

The church continued and expanded with the same teachings after the death of the last apostle…never a lost church out there…or when St. John the Evangelist died, then all the dioceses evaporated…they continued on.
 
KathleenGee said:
There is only one true Church, the Catholic Church. Christ sustains the Church…The gates of hell cannot prevail against Him …The apostles formed our church of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit…

There was never another church out there…

Church has different meanings…First it is the Bride of Christ, it is Christ Who lives within it, thus it is a sacrament in itself…

The Church is also the diocese…the head, its bishop who is in unity with the seat of Peter, the Holy Father.

Within a diocese, you have parishes, neighborhood churches, headed by a pastor under the bishop.

The Church is the pope in union with the bishops, and the bishops representing our faith.

There are different levels of truths with different weights and this is how people who do not accept as Christ’s church can misunderstand Sacred Tradition from ecclesial traditions; there is the universal catechism, there are encyclicals…all giving different weights…different degrees of truth…I may know the weight of some encyclicals but there are many I do not and would have to consult with a priest.

The church continued and expanded with the same teachings after the death of the last apostle…never a lost church out there…or when St. John the Evangelist died, then all the dioceses evaporated…they continued on.
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I’ve lost track of what we were talking about on this thread.
 
rmcmullan said:
KathleenG, are you saying that the church that was before the Catholic church failed? That the gates of heck prevailed against it?
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Can you clarify this question? I’m not sure what you mean, or how she is answering it.
 
Xavierlives…

I was confused but went back to the posts about the Church prevailing…to remarks about the old priesthood and the new priesthood, with references so an ancient liturgy with one of the apostles’ name, to show continuity of of priesthood and worship in the Catholic church going back to its earliest times.

I went back again, still he wasn’t clear…added more and then got into the canon law take of ‘church’. He simply could have made a pun.

I can see more and more the depth of their invalidation of Chritianity…and to answer anything about the Catholic Church, you are simultaneously hitting on various sources working at the same time…the Church is a living body…creed, worship, sacraments, hierarchy all in one.

So to respond to a question or stand requires so much to make up for…I am beginning to see the best for them is to refer them to Utahmission.com…introduced by a former Mormon who deals with such complexity.
 
KathleenGee said:
Xavierlives…

I was confused but went back to the posts about the Church prevailing…to remarks about the old priesthood and the new priesthood, with references so an ancient liturgy with one of the apostles’ name, to show continuity of of priesthood and worship in the Catholic church going back to its earliest times.

I went back again, still he wasn’t clear…added more and then got into the canon law take of ‘church’. He simply could have made a pun.

I can see more and more the depth of their invalidation of Chritianity…and to answer anything about the Catholic Church, you are simultaneously hitting on various sources working at the same time…the Church is a living body…creed, worship, sacraments, hierarchy all in one.

So to respond to a question or stand requires so much to make up for…I am beginning to see the best for them is to refer them to Utahmission.com…introduced by a former Mormon who deals with such complexity.
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Well, there isn’t a huge population of Mormons in my neck of the woods, but I have burden for them. I think it is partially because they are raised in it and don’t give it much thought. They think things like, “we have Jesus Christ in our name so we must be Christians.” They are as lost as a one-eyed goat in a hail storm.
 
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