LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[RebeccaJ]

Hi Rebecca,

I lost track of your post…I also put remarks from fr. Foley’s text in the Mormon Restoration thread…a little clearer this time…trying to make it brief but to the point.

Thanks. It is along the same lines of discussion we’ve been having in our School of Community. That is, experience is how we know God. Serving others, especially, and most certainly in our liturgies, which have been experienced for a longggggg time by billions of people. Real. Tangible. Philosophy/theology, seek to explain our experience. Which is alright, but some of us are “hands on” sort of learners.

Yes you have gone on a great faith journey, and I personally want to welcome you so deeply into our communion…God bless you and I pray you help others like you find peace and practice that is free and centered on Christ Our Lord.

Happy New Year!

Thanks. I see them every year, in RCIA, and baptized at Easter Vigil.

Happy New Year to you as well.

 

[Xavierlives]

Most former mormons that I know of (and I am a former mormon) tend to become either agnositc, atheistic, or go for something like UU’s.

They tend not to go for organized religion if they head towards religion at all…

The scrutinized the Bible has they have the BoM and find it lacking in their view.

There are, however, exceptions, of course. I was agnostic for many years myself.

The mormon mindset, and way of thinking is not an easy to unravel.

It’s only ONLY by God’s grace that I became Catholic.

Only divine intervention could help me undo what Mormonism had done.

And that is really too bad because I think with someone showing them the truth of the Bible and the distortion the BoM, D&C, BoA puts on Christianity, I’d think they would be more receptive.

 

[KathleenGee]

That is the bondage that comes from the spirit world, and I felt it when first coming into Mormon posts…

 

[ParkerD]

That is the bondage that comes from the spirit world, and I felt it when first coming into Mormon posts…

Kathleen or Xavierlives,

If you wish to discuss Biblical doctrines, I can oblige that. If you wish to discuss the spirit world and what goes on there, I can oblige that to some extent. If you wish to discuss being brought out of spiritual bondage, as the Savior promised when He quoted Isaiah 61:1 in the Jewish synagogue as He began His public ministry, I would love to discuss that wonderful passage and its beautiful promises.

But it would be important to understand that a person who feels that Biblically based teachings that are not the same as theirs pull the rug out from under their traditions will feel very logically and naturally that they need to protect what they have believed and been taught–and they will do it using the religious language they have been taught also (just as each of you have done in your posts just prior here).

That is similar to how the Pharisees reacted to Christ’s teachings. It is the natural reaction–not a new thing at all. Have a peaceful and joyful day.

 

[Marie5890]

why me, most people I know who have left, or are in the process of leaving mormonism, the struggle is trust. Having been taught that your feelings are the barometer of Truth, and discovering your feelings led you so incredibly far into falsehoods…you no longer trust your own feelings. And, you don’t trust organized religions because you don’t want to fall for such a bag of lies again, not as long as you live. Trust, is the hardest issue. Atheism, universalism, agnosticism, they are attractive at this point. Believe nothing, or believe everything is flatly “maybe true”, it seems like a middle road. Like the most reasonable and rational route.

You hit the nail on the head of what the real issue is. Trust. Period. It was never about what “why me” suggested.

Still find it curious that he/she would make such comment and it seems pretty apparently that they have never really talked with many who have left or are in the process of leaving.

The lady who was head of the RCIA program when I went thru was very patient with me and my ability to trust. She really just let the Holy Spirit do His job and never pressured me.

Just answered my questions openly honestly. I was never pressured into commitment. Even our pastor was really cool and low key. He just trust that God would lead me to where He wanted me to be.

 

[KathleenGee]

Sorry, Parker, I was speaking truthfully to my experience and will refrain in future.

In our churches, we enjoy great inner liberty of Christ…

 

[RebeccaJ]

You hit the nail on the head of what the real issue is. Trust. Period. It was never about what “why me” suggested.

Still find it curious that he/she would make such comment and it seems pretty apparently that they have never really talked with many who have left or are in the process of leaving.

The lady who was head of the RCIA program when I went thru was very patient with me and my ability to trust. She really just let the Holy Spirit do His job and never pressured me.

Just answered my questions openly honestly. I was never pressured into commitment. Even our pastor was really cool and low key. He just trust that God would lead me to where He wanted me to be.

Same here. And good friends who answered my questions. Looking back, wow! Such patience. :hug3:

 

[Xavierlives]

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Kathleen or Xavierlives,

If you wish to discuss Biblical doctrines, I can oblige that. If you wish to discuss the spirit world and what goes on there, I can oblige that to some extent. If you wish to discuss being brought out of spiritual bondage, as the Savior promised when He quoted Isaiah 61:1 in the Jewish synagogue as He began His public ministry, I would love to discuss that wonderful passage and its beautiful promises.

But it would be important to understand that a person who feels that Biblically based teachings that are not the same as theirs pull the rug out from under their traditions will feel very logically and naturally that they need to protect what they have believed and been taught–and they will do it using the religious language they have been taught also (just as each of you have done in your posts just prior here).

That is similar to how the Pharisees reacted to Christ’s teachings. It is the natural reaction–not a new thing at all. Have a peaceful and joyful day.

Well I had to go back to see where I maybe offended you.

Parker, I think the danger that we have is, you have your beliefs and I mine. Our beliefs are quite different. You use different definitions for words. You use different scriptures. While I understand you believe yours to be the truth, I find it contrary to the truth in the Bible.

We can have a lovely discourse about Mormonism & Christianity, discussing theology and the like, but in the end our communication is severely restricted because of our language barrier. We can think about our language barrier and maybe try close the gap, but that isn’t going to solve the problem. The reason is because, we will revert to our personal definitions when talking. For illustrative purposes, lets talk about Jesus. Your Jesus and my Jesus are not the same. Your vision of Jesus comes from a lens that is taken from the BoM, D&C, & BoA. My vision of Jesus comes solely from the Bible. Through JS, you have a completely different view of Jesus. Good, bad, or indifferent, you cannot deny this. Now whenever we discuss Jesus, I am thinking about the man from the Gospels. I am thinking of the Son of God fulfilling the old scriptures. Now to cut you off at the chase, You can avoid saying “I do too.” If you did believe in Him then you wouldn’t have added scripture. Because our definitions are different, we will never see eye-to-eye. That does not me we can’t see each other, it means will will never be in the same spot.

Now, with that said, I don’t think you should be offended by anything said here or by me. I am speaking the truth. It is not an insult to say you do not believe it. Moreover, I think your illustration of the discussions between the Pharisees and Jesus is somewhat applicable. Just remember, the Pharisees are the ones who added to the law. They are the ones who set things like the Sabbath distance, they are the ones who were legalistic, they are the ones who believed that following the law and doing good works before man was their salvation. The message Jesus brought was different. The Sabbath was for man, not for God. God does his work all the time. God does not answer to man, man answers to God. There were no gods before God, there is but one God, and there will be no gods after God. No one has seen God, but Jesus. These are some of the truths found in the Bible. These are the truths taught from Jesus. I can only take his truth. If you take something more as your truth, then there is conflict.

Discussing your truth and my truth does not “pull the rug” from you. You are standing on your own rug, a rug that is in a different room, a room that is in a different house. The problem you are having is, our understanding of truth is the same. We both recognize there cannot be two. We both know, you cannot get to the truth from a lie. No matter what is done to embellish it, it is still a lie. No amount of faith can make it a lie the truth and that is tough to accept. And for that, I am sorry. But, I am not going to hem and haw around that subject.

 

[ParkerD]

Well I had to go back to see where I maybe offended you.

Parker, I think the danger that we have is, you have your beliefs and I mine. Our beliefs are quite different. You use different definitions for words. You use different scriptures. While I understand you believe yours to be the truth, I find it contrary to the truth in the Bible.

We can have a lovely discourse about Mormonism & Christianity, discussing theology and the like, but in the end our communication is severely restricted because of our language barrier. We can think about our language barrier and maybe try close the gap, but that isn’t going to solve the problem. The reason is because, we will revert to our personal definitions when talking. For illustrative purposes, lets talk about Jesus. Your Jesus and my Jesus are not the same. Your vision of Jesus comes from a lens that is taken from the BoM, D&C, & BoA. My vision of Jesus comes solely from the Bible. Through JS, you have a completely different view of Jesus. Good, bad, or indifferent, you cannot deny this. Now whenever we discuss Jesus, I am thinking about the man from the Gospels. I am thinking of the Son of God fulfilling the old scriptures. Now to cut you off at the chase, You can avoid saying “I do too.” If you did believe in Him then you wouldn’t have added scripture. Because our definitions are different, we will never see eye-to-eye. That does not me we can’t see each other, it means will will never be in the same spot.

Now, with that said, I don’t think you should be offended by anything said here or by me. I am speaking the truth. It is not an insult to say you do not believe it. Moreover, I think your illustration of the discussions between the Pharisees and Jesus is somewhat applicable. Just remember, the Pharisees are the ones who added to the law. They are the ones who set things like the Sabbath distance, they are the ones who were legalistic, they are the ones who believed that following the law and doing good works before man was their salvation. The message Jesus brought was different. The Sabbath was for man, not for God. God does his work all the time. God does not answer to man, man answers to God. There were no gods before God, there is but one God, and there will be no gods after God. No one has seen God, but Jesus. These are some of the truths found in the Bible. These are the truths taught from Jesus. I can only take his truth. If you take something more as your truth, then there is conflict.

Discussing your truth and my truth does not “pull the rug” from you. You are standing on your own rug, a rug that is in a different room, a room that is in a different house. The problem you are having is, our understanding of truth is the same. We both recognize there cannot be two. We both know, you cannot get to the truth from a lie. No matter what is done to embellish it, it is still a lie. No amount of faith can make it a lie the truth and that is tough to accept. And for that, I am sorry. But, I am not going to hem and haw around that subject.

Xavierlives,

I hadn’t been offended, but had posted a comment based on your comment about “distortion.” (I edited a bit incorrectly, in that what I had meant was the “rug” being pulled out was not from under me, but from under you.) There are so many verses that talk about inheriting what the Son of God inherits, that I am always surprised that people who say they are Bible readers to the point of feeling like they really know the Bible, are surprised to find a group of people who actually believe that John and the Savior were meaning what they said and were not just using hyperbole.

Good point about the Pharisees. They had Old Testament teachings, and believed they understood them very well. They had exactly what they wanted, and weren’t ready for the kinds of additional wisdom Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 2. No surprise there–that is the nature of man.

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,
I must be sincere, that when first coming to Mormon threads, I wasn’t sure if it was right for me…I have learned some things since then, and I have read the new principles being taught at this time…

Likewise, it is offensive and troubling for us as well to be invalidated for our faith and church across denominational lines.

However, Mormonism has a number points besides the main issue of the foundation of Joseph Smith as founder of your church. Not only his moral character but the points of faith your church does still believe in. Correct me briefly if any of the following are still held true:

Your god isn’t from eternity…vs. Yahweh, I am Who am…because God is an exalted man who has a wife on or near the star Kolob…Mormons can become gods rather than partaking in the life of Christ for all eternity, there is something I have just read that the Messiah was a polygamist, that God the Father had Mary as His wife in some way, and then gave her to Joseph, Adam is Christ, Adam is Michael the Archangel, Adam stands at the gate of heaven…the focus is on man. Just as we perceive Mormonism as a man made church with no precursors or signs to such doctrines before Joseph Smith declared himself a prophet.

Some of these I knew beforehand…and the marriage of a man and wife continuing into heaven where they will have more spirit children and the man additional wives if he wants…

We have such a contrary idea of faith and fidelity…and it caused me a reaction as such…I have stated elsewhere the kindness I have known as well of Mormon people.
But the differences are most profound, and I myself don’t like to keep rehashing the same over and over. So I am coming to an end as such here as well.

 

[Marie5890]

Well I had to go back to see where I maybe offended you.

Parker, I think the danger that we have is, you have your beliefs and I mine. Our beliefs are quite different. You use different definitions for words. You use different scriptures. While I understand you believe yours to be the truth, I find it contrary to the truth in the Bible.

We can have a lovely discourse about Mormonism & Christianity, discussing theology and the like, but in the end our communication is severely restricted because of our language barrier. We can think about our language barrier and maybe try close the gap, but that isn’t going to solve the problem. The reason is because, we will revert to our personal definitions when talking. For illustrative purposes, lets talk about Jesus. Your Jesus and my Jesus are not the same. Your vision of Jesus comes from a lens that is taken from the BoM, D&C, & BoA. My vision of Jesus comes solely from the Bible. Through JS, you have a completely different view of Jesus. Good, bad, or indifferent, you cannot deny this. Now whenever we discuss Jesus, I am thinking about the man from the Gospels. I am thinking of the Son of God fulfilling the old scriptures. Now to cut you off at the chase, You can avoid saying “I do too.” If you did believe in Him then you wouldn’t have added scripture. Because our definitions are different, we will never see eye-to-eye. That does not me we can’t see each other, it means will will never be in the same spot.

Now, with that said, I don’t think you should be offended by anything said here or by me. I am speaking the truth. It is not an insult to say you do not believe it. Moreover, I think your illustration of the discussions between the Pharisees and Jesus is somewhat applicable. Just remember, the Pharisees are the ones who added to the law. They are the ones who set things like the Sabbath distance, they are the ones who were legalistic, they are the ones who believed that following the law and doing good works before man was their salvation. The message Jesus brought was different. The Sabbath was for man, not for God. God does his work all the time. God does not answer to man, man answers to God. There were no gods before God, there is but one God, and there will be no gods after God. No one has seen God, but Jesus. These are some of the truths found in the Bible. These are the truths taught from Jesus. I can only take his truth. If you take something more as your truth, then there is conflict.

.

And that is the fundamental difference and reason for not really seeing eye to eye.

And people (understandably) are having discussions based on what their view and definition is.

it does make for poor and clear communication…

In essence this

“We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.”

is different from what Mormons believe.

So “square one”, right off the bat, is different.

 

[KathleenGee]

I was also go to further comment to my previous post that to deny Jesus as the fullness of revelation of God that ends with the last apostle—who knew Christ…anything different, wouldn’t be other spiritual entities as well?

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavierlives,

I hadn’t been offended, but had posted a comment based on your comment about “distortion.” (I edited a bit incorrectly, in that what I had meant was the “rug” being pulled out was not from under me, but from under you.) There are so many verses that talk about inheriting what the Son of God inherits, that I am always surprised that people who say they are Bible readers to the point of feeling like they really know the Bible, are surprised to find a group of people who actually believe that John and the Savior were meaning what they said and were not just using hyperbole.

Good point about the Pharisees. They had Old Testament teachings, and believed they understood them very well. They had exactly what they wanted, and weren’t ready for the kinds of additional wisdom Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 2. No surprise there–that is the nature of man.

Parker, to be perfectly honest, I am surprised when people take things which obviously are figurative and make them literal, and when they take something literal and make it figurative. These are the fun things we get to discuss. Then there are times where you can’t dance that dance, like Isaiah 43:10-11. It is pretty straightforward.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,
I must be sincere, that when first coming to Mormon threads, I wasn’t sure if it was right for me…I have learned some things since then, and I have read the new principles being taught at this time…

Likewise, it is offensive and troubling for us as well to be invalidated for our faith and church across denominational lines.

However, Mormonism has a number points besides the main issue of the foundation of Joseph Smith as founder of your church. Not only his moral character but the points of faith your church does still believe in. Correct me briefly if any of the following are still held true:

(1) Your god isn’t from eternity…vs. Yahweh, I am Who am…because God is an exalted man who has a wife on or near the star Kolob…(2) Mormons can become gods rather than partaking in the life of Christ for all eternity, (3) there is something I have just read that the Messiah was a polygamist, that God the Father had Mary as His wife in some way, and then gave her to Joseph, Adam is Christ, Adam is Michael the Archangel, Adam stands at the gate of heaven…the focus is on man. Just as we perceive Mormonism as a man made church with no precursors or signs to such doctrines before Joseph Smith declared himself a prophet.

Some of these I knew beforehand…and the marriage of a man and wife continuing into heaven where they will have more spirit children and the man additional wives if he wants…

We have such a contrary idea of faith and fidelity…and it caused me a reaction as such…I have stated elsewhere the kindness I have known as well of Mormon people.
But the differences are most profound, and I myself don’t like to keep rehashing the same over and over. So I am coming to an end as such here as well.

Kathleen,
If you believe everything you read during your life, then I suggest that a great many people are going to “pull wool” over your eyes.

I wouldn’t believe most of what you wrote above about Mormons, if I were you and had the skill of using the Internet to figure out who is “pulling wool” over eyes for their own reasons and purposes. The Internet is such a poor source for figuring out valid information!

Briefly:
(1) Mormons believe that Yahweh was Jehovah, the Great I AM, the Word who was made flesh and who told the Jews He was I AM. He is from all eternity to all eternity, the Beginning and the End, Alpha and Omega. He is the perfect rightful Heir of God the Father.

If there was a Big Bang, then Jehovah and God the Father were both already in existence outside of this universe before the Big Bang occurred, and caused it to happen to begin the existence of this universe. It is true that Mormons view “eternity” in a larger context than you probably do, since we believe we all lived with these wonderful omnipotent Beings before this life.

Mormons do believe that there are heavenly parents, and that we are literally beloved spirit offspring of heavenly parents and that God the Father had a plan for the eternal progress of these spirit offspring (humankind). Jesus Christ and His perfection including His perfect love were absolutely essential for that eternal plan of progress for us. You can’t imagine the gratitude we feel toward the Savior, Jesus Christ, for His volunteering to be the Savior and Redeemer of the world, to allow the progress that Heavenly Father wanted His spirit offspring to achieve through His plan.

(2) For those who become gods, it will certainly be through “partaking in the life of Christ” because He is at the center of that inheritance and those who become “joint heirs” will do so through Him, just as John saw was the promised inheritance.

(3) I personally don’t think Christ was married, but if He was, then that’s OK from my perspective. Christ was literally the Son of God the Father, but Mary was a virgin at the time of Jesus’ birth, so the conception by the overshadowing of the Holy Ghost was done by the knowledge God had of how to preserve her virginity yet be the Father of Jesus Christ so that He would have the attributes necessary to conquer death.

Adam is Michael the Archangel and has a vital interest in all of his posterity, including having priesthood authority in our behalf so his priesthood role does become part of the process of being judged whether worthy to enter heaven. Adam and Christ are separate, and Adam (Michael) obeys Christ in all things that he will do as Michael the Archangel.

Marriage is an eternally good thing, not an eternally indifferent thing. I learn so much from marriage and can see its benefits of “wholeness” and “oneness” that I am always surprised when people think there will be no marriage in heaven, just because the Savior said the Sadducees wouldn’t have marriage (since they didn’t qualify anyway.)

Peace to you, KathleenGee.

 

[RebeccaJ]

just because the Savior said the Sadducees wouldn’t have marriage (since they didn’t qualify anyway.)

So you believe Jesus had pronounced Final Judgment on these men, at this time?

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, to be perfectly honest, I am surprised when people take things which obviously are figurative and make them literal, and when they take something literal and make it figurative. These are the fun things we get to discuss. Then there are times where you can’t dance that dance, like Isaiah 43:10-11. It is pretty straightforward.

Xavierlives,
Isaiah is one of my favorite prophets, so thanks for bringing up his poetic writings. Here is the larger passage from Isaiah 43:

3 For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.
13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
14 Thus saith the Lord, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.
15 I am the Lord, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

So indeed, the Holy One of Israel, I AM, the Creator of Israel, the King Immanuel, is Jesus Christ, and beside Him there is no Savior.

The words “before me there was no God formed” would need to be carefully understood from the original Hebrew. I don’t think God has ever been “formed”, nor that a righteous god will ever be “formed”. But I do think John knew what he was saying when He said that He saw the promise of inheritance of being a “joint heir” with Christ. That would not be by a process of being “formed.”

 

[ParkerD]

So you believe Jesus had pronounced Final Judgment on these men, at this time?

Why not? He knew what was in the hearts of the Sadducees, what they were “aiming” for, and understood their hypothetical example. He was answering from the standpoint of knowing the end from the beginning. He knew they didn’t believe in His divinity, nor His power to save them nor even to bring them the opportunity to live again by resurrection. Without belief in Him, they had placed themselves in a position to be judged by their own works, and their own beliefs.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you for identifying and clarifying some passages I shared with you from another Mormon source who declared them as still holding as beliefs…as I shared with you earlier, I also looked at present Mormon principles, but was unable to fully identify and clarify or know if such positions are held.

I concur with you a common spirit of faith and response to that of Jesus Christ. albeit through our defined differences…as Christ reaches all Who seek Him…

I do see these passages as new and added but as figurative…our relationships based in Christ and for Christ continue into heaven…but we do not live as married do on earth as Christ said…we are all born of God…and He knew us before we were born…

 

[RebeccaJ]

Why not? He knew what was in the hearts of the Sadducees, what they were “aiming” for, and understood their hypothetical example. He was answering from the standpoint of knowing the end from the beginning. He knew they didn’t believe in His divinity, nor His power to save them nor even to bring them the opportunity to live again by resurrection. Without belief in Him, they had placed themselves in a position to be judged by their own works, and their own beliefs.

So, you believe in predestination?

What do you think about Saul of Tarsus?

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

Do you believe St. John the Evangelist is still alive? I read some Mormons believe that as well.