LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

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Xavierlives,
Clearly, Satan was mocking God’s plan of salvation when he tempted Eve. He rejected the plan of salvation and rejected Christ in the premortal world–why would he do differently in this world? He knew that God had said Adam and Eve would die if they ate the forbidden fruit. So what was his objective?–get them to eat so they will die and so that he will have defied God’s plan.

We both have acknowledged the verse in Genesis 3:22 wherein it says,
“And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:”

Yet we know that just to “know good and evil” is not to have “become as one of us” since the Lord God was speaking. It is only to have entered into a condition that made possible the knowledge of good and evil and the actions permissible to act upon that knowledge by making choices.

So Christ needed to be in the picture from that very beginning, and His atonement was part of the plan of salvation from the beginning, and figured into it as the keystone event in human history to make possible the progress of humankind and yet not subject humankind to the penalties for their mistakes along the way of that progress. Christ redeems from the fall and redeems from individual sin–and did so because of His perfect, infinite love for us–who can fathom the depth of that love!
Satan had no idea of God’s plan or he would never would have had Jesus crucified. Satan might have had access to the scripture, but he, like Judas, thought the plan was going to play out differently.

In reality, God is the only one with the deep knowledge. You can guess as to His plan, but His revelations are always done in truth. His word is always consistant, so when he says in Exodus or John, no man has seen the Father, but the Son, it means, no man. When He says there are no gods before or after Him, he means it so that all may understand. If you believe you will be a god, then you will answer for that and because you are expecting some exaltation you might be in for a surprise. I on the other hand am not expecting any. I can be the street sweeper, I can be a mansion maid, I can be whatever job He tells me, and I know He deserves all exaltation, not me. For my work compared to His is like a drop to the ocean. I deserve no exaltation for while I am a joint-heir to the suffering, only he paid the price. While I am a joint-heir to his mercy, only He give the mercy.
 
Hmm… Jesus and John said we were to be gods? I must have missed those scriptures. I have heard the Romans 8:17 (joint-heirs reference, but we know the intent behind that, so its use is out of context). Where does Jesus say this?
Xavierlives,
“Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord” and “be ye therefore perfect” may seem “relative” to many people, and no doubt there will be plenty of joy to those in all of the levels of heaven, but to have the joy They have, would mean to be “like Them”.
 
Xavierlives,
“Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord” and “be ye therefore perfect” may seem “relative” to many people, and no doubt there will be plenty of joy to those in all of the levels of heaven, but to have the joy They have, would mean to be “like Them”.
Sorry, Parker, but I don’t see where either of these quotes has anything to do with becoming “gods”. Particularly the second quote. That is from Matthew 5:48 and the context is as follows:
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Jesus is exhorting us in our thoughts and actions to be as the Heavenly Father in our treatment of everyone - not that we will become “gods”.
 
What Bible are you using?

New Am Bible 1Peter3:16 but do it with gentleness and reverance, keeping your conscience clear, so that , when you are maligned, those who defame your good coduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.
 
What Bible are you using?

New Am Bible 1Peter3:16 but do it with gentleness and reverance, keeping your conscience clear, so that , when you are maligned, those who defame your good coduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.
Rdscheirer,

Mormons use the 1611 King James Version.

As someone told me, it beautiful to read in its old English language, but not a very good translation from the original.
 
Sorry, Parker, but I don’t see where either of these quotes has anything to do with becoming “gods”. Particularly the second quote. That is from Matthew 5:48 and the context is as follows:

Jesus is exhorting us in our thoughts and actions to be as the Heavenly Father in our treatment of everyone - not that we will become “gods”.
Jay53,
I hope you do have the fervent desire and actions that bring you to “be as the Heavenly Father in your treatment of everyone”. If you do that with all your heart, then I am confident that you will be able to become a “son of your Father in Heaven” and be able to “enter into the joy of thy Lord”, since you will have learned a quality that is truly a God-like quality.

Whether He really makes you a son (like a son who is like his father), will also, it would seem, depend upon whether you really want to become like your Father and to live like He lives and love unconditionally like He loves, and understand the laws of justice and mercy in the universe like He understands them so that you can look at the outcomes from the individual choices people make, with complete peace and compassion, joy and forgiveness.
 
Soren1,
Good day to you. I don’t really think Jesus was a “debater” at all,
Jesus most certainly engaged in debate, which is a good and noble part of a rabbi’s discipline. It is good because truth is seen clearly in its triumph over falsehood; it is noble, because a person who is willing to debate demonstrates a willingness to be held accountable for his teaching. And while Jesus was not “accountable” in the way we are, he does possess the fullness of justice, which makes men able to withstand scrutiny. And debate, in its proper use, is an exercise in the virtue of justice.

None of this implies that Jesus did not teach “as one having authority and not as one of the scribes.” Rather, Jesus was willing to express his authority through the means proper to rabbis, who had a very dialectical method of instructing. It was normal for them to spar with one another in public, for the edification of their disciples. Respect for the authority of Jesus requires us to take him very seriously when he does condescend to engage in disputation: Jesus’ authority is evidenced in the fact that his arguments are invariably just.

Because the identity is the brothers is not relevant to the Sadducees underlying argument, Jesus’ response is likewise irrelevant, because it changes the subject. He treats a question about whether there *is *a resurrection as if it were a question about different *kinds *of resurrection. Yet he then turns and criticizes the Sadducees not for failing to grasp this distinction, but for not believing in the resurrection. What a muddle. Is that how a just man debates?
What I have a problem with is that by using the word “they,” the translator into English looked at the verb for “marry” in the original language which would have included the understood pronoun as a part of the conjugation of that verb, and rendered the translation as “they”. If the translator had thought that Jesus was changing the subject (which was clearly stated as the “seven brethren” who were hypothetical brethren of the Sadducees), then the translator would have been obliged to render a different translation than using “they” since the subject had already been brought out in the entire discussion.
The translator is doing it right. If every Greek verb with an implied pronoun were translated without a pronoun, the English text would be nonsense. “They shall rise” is a proper translation of anastosin, at the KJV uses it consistently in both occurrences of the word in this passage. As it stands, the meaning of “they” is neither more nor less clear in the English than in Greek. In either language it could be conceived as meaning only “the brothers” or as “anyone who rises.” Yet it doesn’t affect the underlying argument either way, for reasons I have explained.
If Jesus had wanted to give a very important new teaching about there being absolutely no marriage condition in heaven, He would not have used the language He was speaking in a way such as you suggested, because that would imply He does not use language very well by changing a subject while using a verb that had an understood subject. He would have changed the subject and taught the concept about everyone, not just the seven hypothetical Sadducees and the hypothetical woman.
We have seen that it is your account that has Jesus changing the subject. That Jesus is speaking about everyone in the resurrection is more clear from Luke’s account than Mark’s, because there he specifies the reason why there will be no marriage:

The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luke 20:34-36)

I have used the RSV translation here because it catches a detail missed in the KJV, which reads “Neither can they die any more.” Here “neither” translates two words: oude gar. The second word, gar adds the meaning of “because," and it implies a causal relation between the present clause and the one that immediately precedes. Hence the RSV’s “For they cannot die any more.” Jesus is saying that marriage is unnecessary in the resurrection precisely because of deathlessness. Since deathlessness applies to all who are resurrected, the argument has universal force.

“That resurrection” refers to those who are justified as opposed to the reprobate. There are only two resurrections distinguished in Scripture. This need not imply that there can be no levels of heaven, but that the those levels are not distinct as different resurrections.
All of the listeners would have been familiar that He had already taught against the concept of Jewish divorce by quoting the words about Adam and Eve and then saying “What God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” which is His fundamental teaching about marriage in general.
Man and wife are not “put asunder” in heaven, as I explained in a part of my original post that I did not reproduce in my second.
 
Jesus most certainly engaged in debate, which is a good and noble part of a rabbi’s discipline. It is good because truth is seen clearly in its triumph over falsehood; it is noble, because a person who is willing to debate demonstrates a willingness to be held accountable for his teaching. And while Jesus was not “accountable” in the way we are, he does possess the fullness of justice, which makes men able to withstand scrutiny. And debate, in its proper use, is an exercise in the virtue of justice.

None of this implies that Jesus did not teach “as one having authority and not as one of the scribes.” Rather, Jesus was willing to express his authority through the means proper to rabbis, who had a very dialectical method of instructing. It was normal for them to spar with one another in public, for the edification of their disciples. Respect for the authority of Jesus requires us to take him very seriously when he does condescend to engage in disputation: Jesus’ authority is evidenced in the fact that his arguments are invariably just.

Because the identity is the brothers is not relevant to the Sadducees underlying argument, Jesus’ response is likewise irrelevant, because it changes the subject. He treats a question about whether there *is *a resurrection as if it were a question about different *kinds *of resurrection. Yet he then turns and criticizes the Sadducees not for failing to grasp this distinction, but for not believing in the resurrection. What a muddle. Is that how a just man debates?

The translator is doing it right. If every Greek verb with an implied pronoun were translated without a pronoun, the English text would be nonsense. “They shall rise” is a proper translation of anastosin, at the KJV uses it consistently in both occurrences of the word in this passage. As it stands, the meaning of “they” is neither more nor less clear in the English than in Greek. In either language it could be conceived as meaning only “the brothers” or as “anyone who rises.” Yet it doesn’t affect the underlying argument either way, for reasons I have explained.

We have seen that it is your account that has Jesus changing the subject. That Jesus is speaking about everyone in the resurrection is more clear from Luke’s account than Mark’s, because there he specifies the reason why there will be no marriage:

The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luke 20:34-36)

I have used the RSV translation here because it catches a detail missed in the KJV, which reads “Neither can they die any more.” Here “neither” translates two words: oude gar. The second word, gar adds the meaning of “because," and it implies a causal relation between the present clause and the one that immediately precedes. Hence the RSV’s “For they cannot die any more.” Jesus is saying that marriage is unnecessary in the resurrection precisely because of deathlessness. Since deathlessness applies to all who are resurrected, the argument has universal force.

“That resurrection” refers to those who are justified as opposed to the reprobate. There are only two resurrections distinguished in Scripture. This need not imply that there can be no levels of heaven, but that the those levels are not distinct as different resurrections.

Man and wife are not “put asunder” in heaven, as I explained in a part of my original post that I did not reproduce in my second.
Soren1,
I have read your post here, and disagree but enjoyed reading your thoughts. The passage in Luke is somewhat inapplicable since the words imply that there is a requirement of “worthiness” to “attain” the resurrection from the dead, and that is untrue in that all of humankind will be resurrected, both the just and the unjust–“in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Your explanation seems to imply that the Greek language had no differentiation between discussing a universal “they” or a specific group of people spoken of as “they”. That would be quite confusing if a language had that inability to differentiate. I think it would be quickly figured out by users of Greek that there needed to be a change in the language so that a differentiation could be rendered by the people who would use the language on an everyday basis.

Thanks for the exchange of ideas, and enjoy being single in eternity. I’m eternally grateful for the knowledge that I will enjoy a delightful and soul-enlarging oneness with my sweet and patient wife throughout eternity, and will continue to learn from her in the spirit world as we prepare for the resurrection with our loved ones, when those stages of existence come along.
 
Soren already explained that no Catholic believes we will be single. Not even a person who never married will be “single”. Not in the sense of the communion we will enjoy with the Holy Trinity and with each other. So, you should understand, saying we are not married is not saying we will be single.

From the Catechism

**1152 Sacramental signs. Since Pentecost, it is through the sacramental signs of his Church that the Holy Spirit carries on the work of sanctification. The sacraments of the Church do not abolish but purify and integrate all the richness of the signs and symbols of the cosmos and of social life. Further, they fulfill the types and figures of the Old Covenant, signify and make actively present the salvation wrought by Christ, and prefigure and anticipate the glory of heaven. **

Just as there were signs in the OT times that prefigured Christ, so we believe the Sacraments prefigure our life in heaven. A lamb is no longer sacrificed as the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, is the perfect Sacrifice. In other words, what is experienced in marriage will be fulfilled in Christ.

So if you think of the anticipation of the coming of the Messiah, and the very profound meaning we understand of this now…the anticipation of heaven is the same, if not greater. 🙂

Who can imagine heaven is a place where God denies us the relationships and love of a spouse, children, friends or Himself? These relationships are not denied. Through Christ they are brought to a perfection that we cannot know in this life.
 
Jay53,
I hope you do have the fervent desire and actions that bring you to “be as the Heavenly Father in your treatment of everyone”. If you do that with all your heart, then I am confident that you will be able to become a “son of your Father in Heaven” and be able to “enter into the joy of thy Lord”, since you will have learned a quality that is truly a God-like quality.

Whether He really makes you a son (like a son who is like his father), will also, it would seem, depend upon whether you really want to become like your Father and to live like He lives and love unconditionally like He loves, and understand the laws of justice and mercy in the universe like He understands them so that you can look at the outcomes from the individual choices people make, with complete peace and compassion, joy and forgiveness.
Parker,
While I certainly appreciate your well wishes, and I do fervently hope that I will go to Heaven to be with God when I die, I still do not believe that I will become a “god” in Heaven (nor do I wish to). That is not what Jesus nor His Apostles taught us and that is not what the quotes you gave us mean. Please see dnu’s post in the other thread regarding apotheosis. (Post #280 in the Gene Fadness thread.)

I also don’t have to worry about God making me “a son (like a son who is like his father)”, because I am already and will always be a child of God. I just have to, like everyone else, strive to do His Will. 🙂
 
Jay53,
I hope you do have the fervent desire and actions that bring you to “be as the Heavenly Father in your treatment of everyone”. If you do that with all your heart, then I am confident that you will be able to become a “son of your Father in Heaven” and be able to “enter into the joy of thy Lord”, since you will have learned a quality that is truly a God-like quality.

Whether He really makes you a son (like a son who is like his father), will also, it would seem, depend upon whether you really want to become like your Father and to live like He lives and love unconditionally like He loves, and understand the laws of justice and mercy in the universe like He understands them so that you can look at the outcomes from the individual choices people make, with complete peace and compassion, joy and forgiveness.
But the joint-heir references need a little more thought, What do they say? Moreover, I don’t think any Christian will say they aren’t going to be in heaven with Jesus, but be equals to his glory? If you find one, I’d be surprised.
 
Soren already explained that no Catholic believes we will be single. Not even a person who never married will be “single”. Not in the sense of the communion we will enjoy with the Holy Trinity and with each other. So, you should understand, saying we are not married is not saying we will be single.
Yep it’s quite alright for Mormons to tell us what we believe, (or just misrepresent our beliefs) it happens all the time on this board. Just as it’s fine to say that a non-drinking (50% of Americans drink) non-smoking (20% of Americans smoke) Christian is “an exception to the rule” (in quotes because it’s a direct quote from an LDS poster) but it’s always ok for LDS to tell us what we believe and to make gross generalization. 🤷
 
Yep it’s quite alright for Mormons to tell us what we believe, (or just misrepresent our beliefs) it happens all the time on this board. Just as it’s fine to say that a non-drinking (50% of Americans drink) non-smoking (20% of Americans smoke) Christian is “an exception to the rule” (in quotes because it’s a direct quote from an LDS poster) but it’s always ok for LDS to tell us what we believe and to make gross generalization. 🤷
They are only regurgitating the lies they have been taught. Since it came from their church, it has to be right. The idea that only mormons are with their families in heaven…that one they are taught is unique to themselves. But ask any Christian, are you with your family in heaven? How many say “no, God thinks we’re happier all alone playing a harp on a cloud.” ??
 
They are only regurgitating the lies they have been taught. Since it came from their church, it has to be right. The idea that only mormons are with their families in heaven…that one they are taught is unique to themselves. But ask any Christian, are you with your family in heaven? How many say “no, God thinks we’re happier all alone playing a harp on a cloud.” ??
Well, to be fair, I think there is a lot of misunderstandings and misrepresentation about the Mormons.

I’d like to think we are all here to learn more about each other so we minimize those qualities.
 
Soren1,
Thanks for the exchange of ideas, and enjoy being single in eternity. I’m eternally grateful for the knowledge that I will enjoy a delightful and soul-enlarging oneness with my sweet and patient wife throughout eternity, and will continue to learn from her in the spirit world as we prepare for the resurrection with our loved ones, when those stages of existence come along.
Enjoying a “delightful and soul-enlarging oneness” with your significant other does not require marriage - unless procreation is involved. You don’t need to be married to love, hold hands, lie in bed together, set up a household together, and spend a life (or eternity) together. You do need to be married to procreate. Eternal marriage is pointless unless you and your spouse plan to create spirit children in the next world. As we Catholic do not believe this will happen (only God creates spirit beings), I don’t need to be married to my wife eternally to “enjoy a delightful and soul-enlarging oneness” with my own sweet and patient wife throughout eternity. In fact, I will (hopefully, if I ‘endure to the end’) enjoy that some oneness with her and every other person in heaven who will all reside together in Christ before God’s throne. In heaven, I won’t just be “married” to my wife. All will be my brother or sister in Christ, and we will in essence all be “married” to each other in an eternal bond of love and joy to form the eternal Bride of Christ that Jesus will eternally present to His Father. That is the true meaning of heaven. The earthly concept of marriage (including the LDS idea of eternal marriage) is irrelevant since we will not be procreating in heaven. Marriage in the next life is therefore unnecessary - exactly as Jesus taught.

NS
 
Enjoying a “delightful and soul-enlarging oneness” with your significant other does not require marriage - unless procreation is involved. You don’t need to be married to love, hold hands, lie in bed together, set up a household together, and spend a life (or eternity) together. You do need to be married to procreate. Eternal marriage is pointless unless you and your spouse plan to create spirit children in the next world. As we Catholic do not believe this will happen (only God creates spirit beings), I don’t need to be married to my wife eternally to “enjoy a delightful and soul-enlarging oneness” with my own sweet and patient wife throughout eternity. In fact, I will (hopefully, if I ‘endure to the end’) enjoy that some oneness with her and every other person in heaven who will all reside together in Christ before God’s throne. In heaven, I won’t just be “married” to my wife. All will be my brother or sister in Christ, and we will in essence all be “married” to each other in an eternal bond of love and joy to form the eternal Bride of Christ that Jesus will eternally present to His Father. That is the true meaning of heaven. The earthly concept of marriage (including the LDS idea of eternal marriage) is irrelevant since we will not be procreating in heaven. Marriage in the next life is therefore unnecessary - exactly as Jesus taught.

NS
NS,
The “exact” thing that Jesus taught was that “what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder”, yet you have done exactly that in your post here. Do as you wish. I have no doubt that others besides those who are married will have wonderful relationships in heaven, but it won’t be oneness and they will have missed out on something they could have enjoyed but didn’t want. It’s OK that you and others have opted out of that kind of relationship in heaven. It was your choice to make.

There is far more to oneness than a physical relationship, and far more to joy than being in the presence of Christ–though that is certainly a joyful thing.
 
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