LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[ParkerD]

But no amount of progress can possibly result in perfection, no matter the degree of “love, forgiveness, change, change, change, change, more change, more forgiveness, more love, more change” that a person experiences. You’re right; Christ does the work. The sum total of our accumulated experiences entailing “change, change, change, change, more change, more forgiveness, more love, more change” produces something categorically different from and lesser than the perfected state we will be in when Christ transforms us in His image. Not only will marriage be irrelevant, so too will all of our accumulated experiences and memories when we are thrust into God’s presence and remade wholly in God’s image (made perfect). Our accumulated earthly experiences make us who were are here; but they won’t make us who we are there. We will be remade, while retaining our individuality. The nature of our relationships will be changed and perfected as a result, through no effort of our own. You won’t feel any special feelings toward your spouse like you do here. You will be completely remade in God’s image and possess the love God possesses. You will love all equally just as God loves all. There’s no room for special favorites or “soul mates” in God’s domain. All will be your soul mate, not just your spouse.

NS

NS,
That may be a lovely belief, but I simply disagree, particularly with the idea “through no effort of our own.” Christ will not do some magical “transformation” without our having entered into covenant relationships and having proven ourselves worthy through keeping those covenant relationships. That is what covenant making is primarily about, and why they are centered in Christ–He enables the efficacy of those covenants.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

God isn’t married. If you want to become like God, you won’t be married.

 

[NewSeeker]

NS,
That may be a lovely belief, but I simply disagree, particularly with the idea “through no effort of our own.” Christ will not do some magical “transformation” without our having entered into covenant relationships and having proven ourselves worthy through keeping those covenant relationships. That is what covenant making is primarily about, and why they are centered in Christ–He enables the efficacy of those covenants.

It’s not just a lovely belief. It’s the only possible outcome if our love is to be perfect. A perfect love, God’s love, does not allow for a soul mate. That implies a degree of exclusion, since not all can be your soul mate. That is not the kind of love that is perfect. Perfect love is God’s love. All in heaven will be your soul mate.

 

[Marie5890]

God isn’t married. If you want to become like God, you won’t be married.

Christine, a fundamental belief of Mormonism is that God (or Heavenly Father) is indeed married to Heavenly Mother. And that they have Heavenly Parents (which would be our Heavenly Grandparents etc) and on backward.

For Mormons, the idea that the family is eternal and eternal increase is the backdrop of the what they consider to be the Plan of Salvation. Its the eternal aspect of the family.



So what Parker is saying is in complete agreement with the doctrines of his church and his beliefs.

 

[ParkerD]

God isn’t married. If you want to become like God, you won’t be married.

Christine77,
I certainly acknowledge that this is the belief I understand that you have, but there is no evidence from scripture either way as to whether God is married or not, yet He “created” male and female and said that the male and female were in the “image of God”–no?

 

[TheosisM]

Christine77,
I certainly acknowledge that this is the belief I understand that you have, but there is no evidence from scripture either way as to whether God is married or not, yet He “created” male and female and said that the male and female were in the “image of God”–no?

Heavenly Mother is God, part of the Godhead?

Also, I’m sure you are aware of the differences in our understandings of what “image and likeness of God” means.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Christine77,
I certainly acknowledge that this is the belief I understand that you have, but there is no evidence from scripture either way as to whether God is married or not, yet He “created” male and female and said that the male and female were in the “image of God”–no?

Who married God? I mean by what authority was God married?

What about the Holy Spirit and Jesus? Do you think they were married too?

I see no evidence for this.

 

[Tamarack]

NS,

There is far more to oneness than a physical relationship, and far more to joy than being in the presence of Christ–though that is certainly a joyful thing.

What more could there be to joy than being in the presence of Christ? If you really mean this, I suspect it points to the core difference between LDS belief and the “lovely belief” so well-articulated by NS.

Also, I seem to remember you writing earlier on this thread that when Jesus said there would be no marriage in heaven, he meant no new marriages in heaven. (Correct me if my memory is faulty). If you do believe that, why do the LDS perform proxy sealings of men and women who have died?

Best regards.

 

[ParkerD]

What more could there be to joy than being in the presence of Christ? If you really mean this, I suspect it points to the core difference between LDS belief and the “lovely belief” so well-articulated by NS.

Also, I seem to remember you writing earlier on this thread that when Jesus said there would be no marriage in heaven, he meant no new marriages in heaven. (Correct me if my memory is faulty). If you do believe that, why do the LDS perform proxy sealings of men and women who have died?

Best regards.

Tamarack,
Thanks kindly for the expression of your close.

There is a difference between the spirit world and heaven, and a difference between those who chose marriage in this life and did so by the earth-bound covenant they were aware of to enter into that marriage, and those who did not choose marriage through a deliberate choice of theirs. Proxy sealings have to do with allowing for the choice of those in the spirit world who want their marriage to have been “bound in heaven”, inasmuch as that choice was not available to them when they lived on earth.

Jesus’ expression of there being “no marriage in heaven” for the hypothetical Sadducees brothers had to do with their having rejected belief in Him, belief in resurrection, and therefore belief in “eternal marriage” at all. Their rejection of Him meant they did not want that which He offered to them–a covenant relationship.

All the best to you, and much peace and joy.

 

[Xavierlives]

Sometimes I don’t understand you Parker. I see you getting the same softball slow pitch questions that you have down by rote. Sure those are easy, but I would think that you would tire of them and desire different questions about your faith, that challenge you. Force you to dive deep into your faith.

Then when you get those questions, they are ignored, or the questioner is ignored, so you can head back to the softball field.

Maybe you’ll take a swing sometime.

(Is it baseball season yet?)

 

[RebeccaJ]

How is a rock a metaphor for revelation?

like this

 

[ParkerD]

Who married God? I mean by what authority was God married?

What about the Holy Spirit and Jesus? Do you think they were married too?

I see no evidence for this.

Christine,
Much happiness to you, by the way. I hope you are having a great new year.

The Holy Spirit and Jesus had very unique roles, so no I do not think they were married. God would certainly have the authority to be married by His own authority.

Given what humankind have done with beliefs in God, I have no question in my mind as to why there are no scriptural declarations that specifically state whether God is married.

 

[ParkerD]

Sometimes I don’t understand you Parker. I see you getting the same softball slow pitch questions that you have down by rote. Sure those are easy, but I would think that you would tire of them and desire different questions about your faith, that challenge you. Force you to dive deep into your faith.

Then when you get those questions, they are ignored, or the questioner is ignored, so you can head back to the softball field.

Maybe you’ll take a swing sometime.

(Is it baseball season yet?)

Xavierlives,
I think I have swung at every pitch that was directed to me. You may have thought I swung and missed, but I think I have given it my best shot.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Christine,
Much happiness to you, by the way. I hope you are having a great new year.

The Holy Spirit and Jesus had very unique roles, so no I do not think they were married. God would certainly have the authority to be married by His own authority.

Given what humankind have done with beliefs in God, I have no question in my mind as to why there are no scriptural declarations that specifically state whether God is married.

Peace and joy to you too, Parker. You always give it your best shot!

 

[kikkichan]

ParkerD,

Hi, and Happy New year.

I have a side question re: being guiding whilst in heaven. You describe a process, in heaven, of continued growth. A process that involves forgiveness. Needing forgiveness implies screwing up; something that I know very well in my pre-heaven existence! Are you stating that we can still screw up in heaven? and if so, Can we screw up badly enough to get the boot?

I have the belief, (the hope, really) that more than not being able to still screw up, that the inclination to screw up will be gone.

–
Also, the idea of creation and in God’s image–Wasn’t the attributes of male-ness and female-ness themselves, also created? Thus making the components of God’s image in which we we’re made, independent of male-ness and female-ness. Those components would have to be something uncreated and uniquely God-like.

thanks,
-kc

…
-Christ, Himself. He guides the progress of those who enter into covenant marriages, and it is very much through love, forgiveness, change, change, change, change, more change, more forgiveness, more love, more change. (You may get the idea.)

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavierlives,
I think I have swung at every pitch that was directed to me. You may have thought I swung and missed, but I think I have given it my best shot.

No. I definitely got a “I’ll take a swing at that when I get a chance” and the chance hasn’t seem to come yet.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD,

Hi, and Happy New year.

I have a side question re: being guiding whilst in heaven. You describe a process, in heaven, of continued growth. A process that involves forgiveness. Needing forgiveness implies screwing up; something that I know very well in my pre-heaven existence! Are you stating that we can still screw up in heaven? and if so, Can we screw up badly enough to get the boot?

I have the belief, (the hope, really) that more than not being able to still screw up, that the inclination to screw up will be gone.

–
Also, the idea of creation and in God’s image–Wasn’t the attributes of male-ness and female-ness themselves, also created? Thus making the components of God’s image in which we we’re made, independent of male-ness and female-ness. Those components would have to be something uncreated and uniquely God-like.

thanks,
-kc

Hi, Kikkichan,
I hope you and your family have a great sense of peace and joy at this time.

I don’t regard the arrival at the spirit world or even at “heaven” as the point of “perfection” although the arrival at “heaven” would mean a state of total purity and having been cleansed through Christ’s mercy. I think of heaven as a condition where there will still need to be growth until the point in time when those who have made covenants and proven themselves are “ready” for receiving true “exaltation” which would mean to become like God in the qualities He possesses. I regard the spirit world as a condition where there will still be the kinds of change that imply giving up bad habits and poor communication behaviors, and offering forgiveness to others with all our hearts (spiritual hearts), with Christ and His atonement still at the center of those changes.

The other question will take more time to answer than I have right at the moment, so I’ll add a comment later. Thanks for asking–very good question.

Xavierlives,
Sorry–I guess I missed something I was supposed to have replied to. Can you remind me?

 

[Answersplease]

sometimes i don’t understand you parker. I see you getting the same softball slow pitch questions that you have down by rote. Sure those are easy, but i would think that you would tire of them and desire different questions about your faith, that challenge you. Force you to dive deep into your faith.

Then when you get those questions, they are ignored, or the questioner is ignored, so you can head back to the softball field.

Maybe you’ll take a swing sometime.

(is it baseball season yet?)

I’ve spent the last few days reading through the various mormon related topics on this website because I was interested in how the dialogue would be between two very different faiths.

I was a mormon for a very long time, former missionary, the works and I have to say that I really don’t like the tone of Zerinus. Sorry man but you come across as extremely arrogant to the point of abrasive. If like some of the other mormon posters on here your goal or objective is to de-convert a few catholics then you’re going about it the wrong way.

A few times I’ve read your interpretation of mormon doctrines and thought ‘huh? who is this guy?’ clearly presenting the gospel according to Zerinus rather than anything I ever learned in Seminary, Institute, the MTC or regular church classes…

I’m also amazed at the patience and good nature of the other posters putting up with the snarky passive aggressive **** you seem to love. Oh well! I guess you’re not doing anyone any harm, but learning some manners might be a good idea. No-one likes an arsehole

sometimes i don’t understand you parker.
averagejoe84;6134961:

If like some of the other mormon posters on here your goal or objective is to de-convert a few catholics…

He’s here to indirectly proselytize, he can’t do it directly because that is against forum rules.

That’s why he answers all the easy questions, and either ignores or “tap dances” around the hard ones.

 

[Xavierlives]

like this

Wow… 2 months later and I understand the seer stone… duh!

Thank You.

 

[Xavierlives]

Answersplease:
But this is the non-catholic religions portion of the forum. I would expect a person could feel free to share some information about their faith.