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Xavierlives
Guest
I hate to throw a wrench in this one sided conversation, but could you post the link to the quoted posts so I can try to see where this is coming from?
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Xavierlives
Guest
And as I understand the Mormon point, which still is a bit hazy. But when the twelve were scattered and then started being killed, they could no longer add to their numbers because they lost the quorum (which is an amazing Robert’s Rules of Order argument. Even the state of Texas tried this one to limit redistricting). Anyhoo, they lost the quorum and fell into apostasy, have had been in that condition into 400 AD when they canonized the Bible, then REALLY fell after that. so, 0-400: pretty bad apostasy, but not so bad as to get the Bible in order; 401-1830 really bad apostasy.
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evanfaust
Guest
Xavierlives…I think you are directing the question to me. The thread where we were discussing this was not the appropriate topic. For this reason, I am trying to continue the conversation in the correct thread. We deviated from the topic and jumped into many different directions. Sorry about that! Here is the link where the conversaton initiated.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6244580#post6244580
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6244580#post6244580
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ParkerD
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Hi, Xavierlives,
Joseph Smith was a reader of the Bible as a youth, and desired to know what God wanted him to do, and to please God–not man. So he prayed about all that when he realized that the Bible said he should do that to gain wisdom from God. As a result of the depth of his faith and the sincerity of his prayer to God, he was able to be quickened by the Holy Spirit and thus was able to endure the presence of God (above him in the air) in order for God to provide an answer to his prayer by calling him by his name and telling him to “hear” His Beloved Son, who stood in the air above him also. The quickening by the Spirit was an essential part of what happened. He was no longer in a “natural” state (i.e. a “man” in the natural sense used in the passage you had cited where Christ used that expression) but was in a “spiritually quickened” state.
I think I see where you’re headed with your other questions, but since I consider that the law of chastity is among the easiest of commandments to keep, and have read enough from those who knew Joseph Smith to know that he had very strong self-control and also loved Emma devotedly and also loved more than anything to study the Bible and to teach the saints, that there is not the slightest question in my mind that he was commanded to enter into plural marriage for that period of time as a test of his and Emma’s faith since it was contrary to everything they had been taught about marriage, and no doubt as a test of other people’s faith since they would absolutely need to know how the Holy Spirit confirms truth or they would have doubted immediately when hearing about that, as some did.
It is ludicrous and silly for anyone to think that Joseph Smith had a problem with the law of chastity. He had so many more important concerns and sources of real joy and the delight of learning from God in his life (I am well aware of the delight of learning from God, and it is a far surpassing joy and delight), including also that his joy in his relationship with Emma comes across in every letter to her, and that relationship was about emotional intimacy and emotional honesty. Besides which, a person who has broken the law of chastity can be looked at in their eyes and the eyes are dark, and they no longer convey light when they address others in any way–they convey emotional darkness and inner trauma (not just from guilt, but because the body does not tolerate that kind of sin without “going dark” in the “light of the body”, which is the eyes.) The eyes are the window to the soul. People who have discernment can see the light in other people’s eyes. Christ, of course, did that also.
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Xavierlives
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Thank you. I’ll try to catch up.
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Xavierlives
Guest
Actually, I was not heading that direction. I’ll try to do a little research about this as well, I guess.
BTW, that “She” should be “should” late nights are catching up with me.
Back to the other questions though, it was more of a lifestyle issue than anything. I guess I should explain. When I read JS’s history or the D&C, I see where it is written into “church law” that the Smith family should be provided with a house, they should be cared for (etc). We see that when JS wants something, he gets it. It isn’t a massive thing standing out, but it seems like money and whatnot is always an issue (and still is).
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evanfaust
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Zaffiroborant…
Scriptures also make clear the requirements for being an apostle, yours don’t meet them.
Evanfaust
Would you mind to list the requirements?
Scriptures also make clear the requirements for being an apostle, yours don’t meet them.
Evanfaust
Would you mind to list the requirements?
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Xavierlives
Guest
Acts 1: 20-26 was how Matthias was picked. 20For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
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ParkerD
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Hi, Rinnie,Hi Parker. I am not quite sure if I am understanding you, could you be more clear. What do you mean by the Son Of God being CHANGED from his carnal and FALLEN STATE
Thanks for asking since I would not want you to have misunderstood. I hope your family is all well, and that good things are in the works for your children…
Xavierlives and I had been discussing John 1:12 and 18 and John 6:46 and John 4:23-24. John 1:12 talks about those who received Christ having “power to become the sons of God”, which means they are quickened and changed from a fallen and carnal state to a spiritually alive and quickened state (reborn spiritually). So I wasn’t talking about Christ (Who is certainly the Son of God with a capital S). I was talking about those whom Christ visits spiritually with His power so that they also become “sons of God” as noted in John 1:12. Those who worship God in truth must do so in a spiritually alive, reborn, quickened state through the atonement of Christ. They cannot worship God in truth in a natural state, which is what is meant by the term “man” in several key scriptures.
There is an important doctrine of the choice between the “two ways”. One “way” is to be lifted up by the Holy Spirit to be able to learn and be taught by the Spirit and worship God in spirit and in truth. The other "way’ is to follow the flesh and the will of the flesh as noted in John 1:13.
Have a peaceful day tomorrow, and do look up those verses if you would like to think about them.
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ParkerD
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Xavierlives,
I suppose you realize that when Joseph Smith was killed, Emma and her family basically lived in a level of poverty until she remarried. If God needed Joseph Smith to spend the majority of his time on other things than farming and building a home and whatnot, then I can see why that was with all that he did in his short life. Rough Stone Rolling would be a good read if you ever get the chance.
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Xavierlives
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Xavierlives,
This is a case where we are not going to agree, but I have appreciated you expressing your point of view. Of course God is Spirit. He is a spiritual Being, just as a “son of God” becomes a spiritual being who has been changed from his carnal and fallen state. Those who are changed by the Holy Spirit are spiritual beings. They are no longer natural, carnal beings. That is what the “second birth” and “sanctification by the Holy Spirit” are all about. But I suggest you are not going to see that in the way you are reading the Bible. You have your mind already made up–how can the Spirit teach you anything since you have already made up your mind what every passage means?
But you will do well and be as happy as you wish by living the gospel as best you can and keeping the commandments as best you can. God bless you in that, and God bless your family as you do so.
I guess to cut to the chase, but all JS had to do was pray and seek God’s wisdom to get to this elevated “spiritual state” to see God and Jesus? Millions of people do this exact thing on a daily basis, do they enter this state? Is there a place you can point to in the Bible that has a similar “state of being?”
Did JS had to remain in this state to receive God’s revelations?
Could sin or a pattern of sin interfere with this?
Also, where in the scripture do you come to this conclusion, I keep reading it as Non quia Patrem vidit quisquam – By no means has anyone seen the Father.
nisi is, qui est a Deo – except he who is from God
hic vidit Patrem – He has seen the father
Thanks for your time. Don’t feel rushed to answer, because I doubt I’ll be able to read any responses for a couple of days.
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Rocket_Man
Guest
That’s quite an observation. I never heard anyone make that story up before! I wonder why in this spiritually quickened state that JS wasn’t able to endure the evil one and was in so much despair that he was ready to give himself over to the enemy’s power.
History of the Church, Vol. 1, Chapters 1
“I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction. But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being”
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ParkerD
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Xavierlives,
Yes, millions of people pray, and they get answers to their prayers if they have prayed sincerely and are humble and have a repentant heart and are keeping the commandments to the best of their ability. God certainly has the prerogative to know how to answer prayers, and what the intent of each person is. There was a need for another prophet on the earth, so that is why Satan rushed in trying to make it so that Joseph Smith would give up on the idea of his prayer of faith (see the quote just cited by Rocket Man); but Joseph exerted more faith and all the power he possessed to overcome the adversary–which is the point in time when he could be spiritually quickened as he increased his faith (see John 6:63 and 65). But God doesn’t go around answering prayers by calling everyone to be a prophet in the sense of leading a church. Samuel had a quickening and heard the voice of God. Stephen had a quickening and saw the Father on the right hand of the Son. Saul (Paul) had a quickening on the road to Damascus, and heard the voice of Christ calling him to repentance–this because God knew his heart and knew he was being sincere even though his sincerity had led him to a mistake in his belief about the followers of Christ.
People who seek guidance from God sincerely, will get it–no question about it. Some have greater faith than others and can get more direct answers because of their greater faith. In all of this, God responds to the needs of the particular situation, with perfect knowledge of the best answer to give to the person suited to the prayer and suited to the need.
Revelation from God is always dependent on the righteousness of the person.
I think you will want to look at John 6:46 in the Greek rather than Latin, because the word “man” as translated is a key word in that verse. It ties back to John 1:18 with a similar meaning.
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rinnie
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Evan post 714-718 Would love to hear what you have to say about them.
They are my answer why it is not only simply a LIE to say the the CC fail, but proof that it cannot.
I understand you left the other thread, still do not understand why. But thats okay. So please answer those posts for me. Thanks Evan, and Glad to see you back.
They are my answer why it is not only simply a LIE to say the the CC fail, but proof that it cannot.
I understand you left the other thread, still do not understand why. But thats okay. So please answer those posts for me. Thanks Evan, and Glad to see you back.
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paul_c
Guest
Evanfaust,
Let me clarify some things for you.
The Apostles were campanions of Jesus who were given the fullness of truth through that contact and through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The one exception to this, was St. Paul, who famously recieved a special calling directly from Christ on the road to Damascus. Note, these Apostles were given the fullness of truth - all that is required to gain heaven. There are no doctrinal truths that they weren’t given. This makes sense, doesn’t it. Afterall, if they weren’t given all the truths required for salvation, that would mean Jesus’ teachings were insufficient. So there are no new truths to be given after the first generation, hence, there were no more apostles.
The men that were given the authority to teach the apostolic truths and administer his sacraments were called bishops. All bishops have the same responsibility to hold and teach the Catholic faith. However, one bishop, the successor of St. Peter, holds the primacy. It is his unique duty to be the leader of the church and all that entails. This has been the case since antiquity. We have written records of Popes exercising this power back to St. Clement, in his letter to the Corinthians, dated 95AD.
As for your claim that Constantine created the Roman Catholic Church, it has no merit… By the time Constantine issued the Edict of Milan in 313AD, ending the persecution of the Church, there had already been 32 Catholic popes. In fact, Eusebius work, " the history of the Church, (available on line here:newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm) predates this and explains the church’s growth through the first 300 years. Catholic Christianity, despite the full throated persecution of the empire had between 15- 20 Million followers out of a total Empire population of 60Million and included Constantine’s mother, St. Helen. Therefore, Constantine had little choice but to stop the persecutions. However, he, himself favored the heretical views of Arius, who claimed that Jesus was not divine. He called the council of Nicea to resolve this heresy and was shocked when the Church labeled Arius a heretic and maintained the Apostolic teaching that Jesus was truly divine. Clearly, he had no control over the church.
Evan, I have great respect for Mormon family values, but you have been greatly decieved about the truths of salvation. This whole concept of a complete Church Apostacy denies the capability of God to protect his church. Further, the concept that Joseph Smith was sent to reset the church’s foundation with a complete reset of doctrine is ludicrous. Why would Jesus not have given the full truth to the original Apostles? And what about Joseph Smith indicates that he was worthy of being the new Christ, correcting for Christ’s initial failure to establish a lasting church? After all, Joseph Smith was a convicted conman, serial adulterer, and bank fraud. He has 33 wives on record in the LDS family archives, many of them already married to other men and some as young as 14. Not only did he set up a doctrine that countermanned the 6th commandment (thou shall not commit adultery), he also was in direct conflict with St. Paul’s requirements for a bishop in 1Timothy 3: 2-3: Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money.
Look, I know the the Mormon church has a very storng societal network and that it is very hard to leave the group because one who leaves will be ostracised. But, really, have you considered all this? Don’t you know that by staying in the LDS, you deprive yourselves of the grace giving sacraments that Christ established within the Catholic Church?
Let me clarify some things for you.
The Apostles were campanions of Jesus who were given the fullness of truth through that contact and through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The one exception to this, was St. Paul, who famously recieved a special calling directly from Christ on the road to Damascus. Note, these Apostles were given the fullness of truth - all that is required to gain heaven. There are no doctrinal truths that they weren’t given. This makes sense, doesn’t it. Afterall, if they weren’t given all the truths required for salvation, that would mean Jesus’ teachings were insufficient. So there are no new truths to be given after the first generation, hence, there were no more apostles.
The men that were given the authority to teach the apostolic truths and administer his sacraments were called bishops. All bishops have the same responsibility to hold and teach the Catholic faith. However, one bishop, the successor of St. Peter, holds the primacy. It is his unique duty to be the leader of the church and all that entails. This has been the case since antiquity. We have written records of Popes exercising this power back to St. Clement, in his letter to the Corinthians, dated 95AD.
As for your claim that Constantine created the Roman Catholic Church, it has no merit… By the time Constantine issued the Edict of Milan in 313AD, ending the persecution of the Church, there had already been 32 Catholic popes. In fact, Eusebius work, " the history of the Church, (available on line here:newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm) predates this and explains the church’s growth through the first 300 years. Catholic Christianity, despite the full throated persecution of the empire had between 15- 20 Million followers out of a total Empire population of 60Million and included Constantine’s mother, St. Helen. Therefore, Constantine had little choice but to stop the persecutions. However, he, himself favored the heretical views of Arius, who claimed that Jesus was not divine. He called the council of Nicea to resolve this heresy and was shocked when the Church labeled Arius a heretic and maintained the Apostolic teaching that Jesus was truly divine. Clearly, he had no control over the church.
Evan, I have great respect for Mormon family values, but you have been greatly decieved about the truths of salvation. This whole concept of a complete Church Apostacy denies the capability of God to protect his church. Further, the concept that Joseph Smith was sent to reset the church’s foundation with a complete reset of doctrine is ludicrous. Why would Jesus not have given the full truth to the original Apostles? And what about Joseph Smith indicates that he was worthy of being the new Christ, correcting for Christ’s initial failure to establish a lasting church? After all, Joseph Smith was a convicted conman, serial adulterer, and bank fraud. He has 33 wives on record in the LDS family archives, many of them already married to other men and some as young as 14. Not only did he set up a doctrine that countermanned the 6th commandment (thou shall not commit adultery), he also was in direct conflict with St. Paul’s requirements for a bishop in 1Timothy 3: 2-3: Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money.
Look, I know the the Mormon church has a very storng societal network and that it is very hard to leave the group because one who leaves will be ostracised. But, really, have you considered all this? Don’t you know that by staying in the LDS, you deprive yourselves of the grace giving sacraments that Christ established within the Catholic Church?
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rinnie
Guest
Thanks Parker, and thank goodness thats what you meant.Hi, Rinnie,
Thanks for asking since I would not want you to have misunderstood. I hope your family is all well, and that good things are in the works for your children…
Xavierlives and I had been discussing John 1:12 and 18 and John 6:46 and John 4:23-24. John 1:12 talks about those who received Christ having “power to become the sons of God”, which means they are quickened and changed from a fallen and carnal state to a spiritually alive and quickened state (reborn spiritually). So I wasn’t talking about Christ (Who is certainly the Son of God with a capital S). I was talking about those whom Christ visits spiritually with His power so that they also become “sons of God” as noted in John 1:12. Those who worship God in truth must do so in a spiritually alive, reborn, quickened state through the atonement of Christ. They cannot worship God in truth in a natural state, which is what is meant by the term “man” in several key scriptures.
There is an important doctrine of the choice between the “two ways”. One “way” is to be lifted up by the Holy Spirit to be able to learn and be taught by the Spirit and worship God in spirit and in truth. The other "way’ is to follow the flesh and the will of the flesh as noted in John 1:13.
Have a peaceful day tomorrow, and do look up those verses if you would like to think about them.
And you are correct none of us can worship God and not be Spiritually alive. Good of you to point that out. That is why our Pope for example goes to confession every single day. Bet you did not know that huh? But he does, Because you cannot be in a state of sin, especially Mortal Sin and be close to God. Mortal sin separates us from God. But when Jesus left his Apostles and their successors through Holy Orders they can forgive sin. Confession is not only how we know the Pope is in a state of Grace it works for us too.As always it is a joy to talk to you. Thanks for the prayers, my family always needs them. And you and yours are always in mine also. God Bless you Parker.
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Jay53
Guest
Are you actually claiming that the “gift of miracles” given to the first Apostles was only witnessed by “the faithful” meaning themselves? The Apostles were to go out and preach the Truth to all nations and their “gifts” were given to them to help them do this. So, obviously, not just “the faithful” would have been able to witness them.
I don’t believe for one minute that any apostles in the Mormon church have the gifts of the first Apostles.
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Xavierlives
Guest
I cannot look to the Greek because I have not been trained. I can barely look to the Latin. I have retained very little of my training and it is only now coming back with my 9 year old who is taking it in school.
I will read the areas of the scripture you mentioned and get back with you in a few days if I have any questions.
Peace to you.
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ParkerD
Guest
Rinnie,
Thanks Parker, and thank goodness thats what you meant.
As always it is a joy to talk to you. Thanks for the prayers, my family always needs them. And you and yours are always in mine also. God Bless you Parker.
Thank you! I was glad to hear about the Pope and repentance, and very glad to know you have thought about my family and have us in your prayers from time to time. Have a wonderful day, and God bless you and yours also. They have a kind example in you to follow.
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Xavierlives
Guest
I have heard several “accounts” of Mormons being sent to some remote island in the Pacific where they were trained in some regional language but not the local language and when they got to the island could then “speak in tongues.” My only problem is, anyone can immerse themselves in a culture and within a few months have a decent working knowledge of the language. Then within 6-8 months have a basic knowledge. This all depends on the “teacher” too. So throwing someone on an island for 2 years and not see them speaking the language when they leave would be more of a miracle than the other way around.
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