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rinnie
Guest
And you too my Love. You have a wonderful warm heart!
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Stephen168
New member
Yes, that is why the Great Assumption is not a historical event and as you point out it makes the belief of it being a theological event difficult.
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evanfaust
Guest
*Jay53
Are you actually claiming that the “gift of miracles” given to the first Apostles was only witnessed by “the faithful” meaning themselves? The Apostles were to go out and preach the Truth to all nations and their “gifts” were given to them to help them do this. So, obviously, not just “the faithful” would have been able to witness them.
I don’t believe for one minute that any apostles in the Mormon church have the gifts of the first Apostles.*
Evanfaust
When I say “faithful” I mean people of faith independently of the religion, the believers and not the ones looking for a sign to satisfy their curiosity.
“As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Luke 11:29
Our Article of Faith number 7 states:
“We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.”
The Mormon Apostles have performed many miracles, just read the story of the Mormon Church and you will see how many gifts they really have. However, these gifts are not restricted to the Apostles, but to any member of the Church.
Are you actually claiming that the “gift of miracles” given to the first Apostles was only witnessed by “the faithful” meaning themselves? The Apostles were to go out and preach the Truth to all nations and their “gifts” were given to them to help them do this. So, obviously, not just “the faithful” would have been able to witness them.
I don’t believe for one minute that any apostles in the Mormon church have the gifts of the first Apostles.*
Evanfaust
When I say “faithful” I mean people of faith independently of the religion, the believers and not the ones looking for a sign to satisfy their curiosity.
“As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Luke 11:29
Our Article of Faith number 7 states:
“We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.”
The Mormon Apostles have performed many miracles, just read the story of the Mormon Church and you will see how many gifts they really have. However, these gifts are not restricted to the Apostles, but to any member of the Church.
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paul_c
Guest
Share this with us. What miracles are you talking about that someone has actually witnessed. For instance, when Joseph Smith claimed to be able to interpret the golden plates (which no one ever saw) miraculously, I easily discount that as an unsubstantiated claim that any con man could perpetrate. Can you offer something up like St. Bernadette At Lourdes, who miraculously found a spring where none existed before that resulted in at least 59 medically verified miracles over the last 150 years? Or like the Dancing of the sun at Fatima, witnessed by 70,000 people and reported in the secular press in 1917?
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evanfaust
Guest
*Rinnie
Evan post 714-718 Would love to hear what you have to say about them.
They are my answer why it is not only simply a LIE to say the the CC fail, but proof that it cannot.
I understand you left the other thread, still do not understand why. But thats okay. So please answer those posts for me. Thanks Evan, and Glad to see you back.*
Evanfaust
Rinnie, I will be glad to respond those issues you brought up, I have not forgot them. I did not leave the thread completely. I am just responding the questions in the proper spot. That thread is for apologetics and what we are discussing is more in line with “other religions”, under different topics.
Evan post 714-718 Would love to hear what you have to say about them.
They are my answer why it is not only simply a LIE to say the the CC fail, but proof that it cannot.
I understand you left the other thread, still do not understand why. But thats okay. So please answer those posts for me. Thanks Evan, and Glad to see you back.*
Evanfaust
Rinnie, I will be glad to respond those issues you brought up, I have not forgot them. I did not leave the thread completely. I am just responding the questions in the proper spot. That thread is for apologetics and what we are discussing is more in line with “other religions”, under different topics.
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evanfaust
Guest
Paul C
Share this with us. What miracles are you talking about that someone has actually witnessed. For instance, when Joseph Smith claimed to be able to interpret the golden plates (which no one ever saw) miraculously, I easily discount that as an unsubstantiated claim that any con man could perpetrate. Can you offer something up like St. Bernadette At Lourdes, who miraculously found a spring where none existed before that resulted in at least 59 medically verified miracles over the last 150 years? Or like the Dancing of the sun at Fatima, witnessed by 70,000 people and reported in the secular press in 1917?
Evanfaust
I will share some experiences with you. Right now I can’t, I am busy working. But I will do it tonight. By the way the golden plates were seen by at least 12 people. And yes, there were many witness to the miracles performed! Some of the people involved recorded them in their journals
Share this with us. What miracles are you talking about that someone has actually witnessed. For instance, when Joseph Smith claimed to be able to interpret the golden plates (which no one ever saw) miraculously, I easily discount that as an unsubstantiated claim that any con man could perpetrate. Can you offer something up like St. Bernadette At Lourdes, who miraculously found a spring where none existed before that resulted in at least 59 medically verified miracles over the last 150 years? Or like the Dancing of the sun at Fatima, witnessed by 70,000 people and reported in the secular press in 1917?
Evanfaust
I will share some experiences with you. Right now I can’t, I am busy working. But I will do it tonight. By the way the golden plates were seen by at least 12 people. And yes, there were many witness to the miracles performed! Some of the people involved recorded them in their journals
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paul_c
Guest
Family and financial backers don’t make the most credible witnesses, especially since Martin Harris, one of those witnesses admitted that the 8 witnesses never actually saw the plates and were in fact persuaded to sign the document.
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evanfaust
Guest
Paul C
Look, I know the the Mormon church has a very storng societal network and that it is very hard to leave the group because one who leaves will be ostracised. But, really, have you considered all this? Don’t you know that by staying in the LDS, you deprive yourselves of the grace giving sacraments that Christ established within the Catholic Church?
Evanfaust
I don’t know where you got this information. As priesthood holders we are instructed to visit the members of our ward every month. That is independently if the member is active, semi-active, or completely inactive. Even if the member decides to join another church we still are supposed to visit him or her once a month at least. Unless that person or family officially requests to remove their names from the records of the church, we continue to fellowship with them.
Let me tell you about the sacraments of the Church. I used to be Catholic and never felt the spirit of God with me in first communion, Christening, masses, etc. When I joined the Mormon Church I came to understand and feel the spirit of God in a degree never experienced in my life before. Now I commune with God and that is the way it is supposed to be!
Look, I know the the Mormon church has a very storng societal network and that it is very hard to leave the group because one who leaves will be ostracised. But, really, have you considered all this? Don’t you know that by staying in the LDS, you deprive yourselves of the grace giving sacraments that Christ established within the Catholic Church?
Evanfaust
I don’t know where you got this information. As priesthood holders we are instructed to visit the members of our ward every month. That is independently if the member is active, semi-active, or completely inactive. Even if the member decides to join another church we still are supposed to visit him or her once a month at least. Unless that person or family officially requests to remove their names from the records of the church, we continue to fellowship with them.
Let me tell you about the sacraments of the Church. I used to be Catholic and never felt the spirit of God with me in first communion, Christening, masses, etc. When I joined the Mormon Church I came to understand and feel the spirit of God in a degree never experienced in my life before. Now I commune with God and that is the way it is supposed to be!
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rinnie
Guest
Evan unless I am mistaken the questions was how did the first church fail. What I have written related directly to that proving it has not happened.
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evanfaust
Guest
Paul C
Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money
Evanfaust
I understand the scripture as saying that a Bishop should be married, which the Catholics are in violation of! You have the celibate law introduced much later in 1074 AD.
You see, the Pope does not claim to receive revelation from God and yet he has power to change what it says in the Bible. In reality He changed what the scriptures above is saying on the token of flesh and blood alone, since he is not a prophet and does not claim to receive revelation.
Joseph Smith on the other hand, claimed to receive revelation and therefore had power and authorization from God to make changes according to circumstances based on God’s command. The same way Peter received a revelation contrary to what was in previous scripture, and you know what it was. Eating unclean animals! The meaning was the preaching to the gentiles, something contrary to previous revealed scriptures! But He was the Senior Apostle and a Prophet of God.
Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money
Evanfaust
I understand the scripture as saying that a Bishop should be married, which the Catholics are in violation of! You have the celibate law introduced much later in 1074 AD.
You see, the Pope does not claim to receive revelation from God and yet he has power to change what it says in the Bible. In reality He changed what the scriptures above is saying on the token of flesh and blood alone, since he is not a prophet and does not claim to receive revelation.
Joseph Smith on the other hand, claimed to receive revelation and therefore had power and authorization from God to make changes according to circumstances based on God’s command. The same way Peter received a revelation contrary to what was in previous scripture, and you know what it was. Eating unclean animals! The meaning was the preaching to the gentiles, something contrary to previous revealed scriptures! But He was the Senior Apostle and a Prophet of God.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Stephen168…here you go.
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TheosisM
Guest
Actually I don’t agree with that interpretation of 1 Timothy 3, because later in the chapter, it says that deacons must also be the “husband of one wife”. So if this interpretation is being consistent, LDS are also in violation of 1 Timothy 3, since their deacons are unmarried (generally, since they generally are 12 year old males).
Stephen168
New member
If you are referring to post #733, I’ve never had a Mormon response to it yet. I’m surprised how often it comes in handy. I’m still trying to caught up on the bizoro history on this thread.Stephen168…here you go.
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paul_c
Guest
First of all the Pope has no authority to change what is in the bible. He has the responsibility to teach what he has been taught and to apply it to the times. Everything he teaches, is and must be consistent with the bible. You are mistaken in your interpretation of 1Timothy 3. Paul is saying the Bishop should be married NO more than once. After all, Paul himself was celibate so he couldn’t be demanding that Bishops MUST be married. In fact he is clear that he thought it was better if people stayed unmarried as he was so they could be devoted to God, but recognized that not everyone had that kind of self control. Our priests give up everything to bring Jesus to the faithful. It is a sign of their commitment to God, emulating Jesus and also Paul…
Yes, and it was very convenient for Joseph Smith to claim the right to change doctrine to whatever suited him. If he wanted to have sex with his neighbor’s wife, he would simply declare that it was now allowed. And if her husband complained, he placated them by promising that by allowing it, the entire family would be made Gods. And it he needed money, he would declare that it was God’s will that his followers buy shares in his bank. Life is very convenient when you make your own rules.
Peter’s situation is very different. He was an apostle of Christ, handpicked to lead the church, When he had the revelation that Gentiles could also be Christians, it was accompanied the Holy spirit coming upon Cornelius’ household, allowing them to speak in tongues, as proof of its divine inspiration. I wonder what sign Joseph Smith was able to show that proved that God now supported adultery?
Stephen168
New member
The celibacy example was set by Christ and the Apostles. Of The Twelve, ten were never married and none were married when they were sent by Christ. Starting in the 4th century local Bishops began to ban married before ordination while a Church wide ban was instituted after ordination. Still haven’t found the polygamy requirement made by Christ in the New Testament. If Joseph Smith ‘restored’ it, I’m sure it has to be there.
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paul_c
Guest
What about institutionalizing Adultery.(marrying another man’s wife). Try finding that one.
Stephen168
New member
I’m sure it is next to Blood Atonement and the ban on alcohol consumption.
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Xavierlives
Guest
Is this a common knowledge thing?
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zaffiroborant
Guest
The marrying of other men’s wives? It seems to be common knowledge on most of the LDS forums I’ve read. Beyond LDS circles probably not.
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evanfaust
Guest
*Paul C says…
I wonder what sign Joseph Smith was able to show that proved that God now supported adultery? *
Evanfaust comments…
You already convinced yourself that Joseph Smith committed adultery. Perhaps you should open your mind to investigate the situation a little. Study his character, his personality and his accomplishments, then you tell me if he was capable of committing adultery.
The information we have on Joseph Smith’s plural marriages is sketchy, simply because there were few official records kept at the time because of the fear of misunderstanding and persecution. What we do know is culled from journals and reminiscences of those who were involved.
The most conservative estimates indicate that Joseph entered into plural marriages with 29–33 women, 7 of whom were under the age of 18. The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of LDS apostle Heber C. Kimball, who was 14. The rest were 16 (two) or 17 (three). One wife (Maria Winchester) about which virtually nothing is known, was either 14 or 15.
Joseph Smith was no match for Solomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines. I Kings 11:1-3
Joseph married these women, which is not considered adultery! Would you call Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and others adulterers?
It was not unusual for men to marry young women during the time of Joseph. Please read the article to know more about it.
en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith’s_marriages_to_young_women
I wonder what sign Joseph Smith was able to show that proved that God now supported adultery? *
Evanfaust comments…
You already convinced yourself that Joseph Smith committed adultery. Perhaps you should open your mind to investigate the situation a little. Study his character, his personality and his accomplishments, then you tell me if he was capable of committing adultery.
The information we have on Joseph Smith’s plural marriages is sketchy, simply because there were few official records kept at the time because of the fear of misunderstanding and persecution. What we do know is culled from journals and reminiscences of those who were involved.
The most conservative estimates indicate that Joseph entered into plural marriages with 29–33 women, 7 of whom were under the age of 18. The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of LDS apostle Heber C. Kimball, who was 14. The rest were 16 (two) or 17 (three). One wife (Maria Winchester) about which virtually nothing is known, was either 14 or 15.
Joseph Smith was no match for Solomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines. I Kings 11:1-3
Joseph married these women, which is not considered adultery! Would you call Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and others adulterers?
It was not unusual for men to marry young women during the time of Joseph. Please read the article to know more about it.
en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith’s_marriages_to_young_women
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