LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

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Also Evan may I add, All Church’s have some truth. I never will deny that. But only one has the Fullness of the Truth. See we need all of the truth not just bits and pieces:D
 
zerinus said:
The linchpin of conversion to (and retention in) Mormonism is the Book of Mormon. Mormonism stands or falls on the truth of the Book of Mormon. If your testimony of Mormonism is not based on the Book of Mormon, it is unlikely to be very strong, and may not endure very long. That is how one gets converted to Mormonism, not by getting a “good feeling” in Church.
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You know something just hit me. You are right in a way. Because JS taught one thing then changed his mind and taught another, then held out to both versions. That would indeed shows me that testimony of Mormonism could not be that strong.🤷
 
ParkerD said:
Sablouwho,
Hello to you. May I first say that having read something about your current situation, it would seem important to do what you have made a commitment to do, and do what you have committed to yourself to do.

It sounds to me like you were sincere in your prayers as described above. I assume based on what you have written, that you had had a very powerful experience to feel inclined to come unto Christ and rejoice that He is the Son of God and is the Promised Messiah of the Old Testament.

If you have studied the Old Testament (particularly Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, and Malachi) and studied the New Testament, and have also studied the Book of Mormon, and had done all that prior to your prayers as described above, and have rectified any “relationship issues” in your personal or family life (not saying you have them, at all), then there is certainly the possibility that the Holy Spirit has “called” you in a different direction in that the Holy Spirit leads people where they can do the most good in the world in bringing themselves and others within their sphere of influence to greater light and knowledge than they previously had. It does seem strange that you felt “spiritually nauseous”, unless you were hearing doctrines that you didn’t understand or were feeling “pushed” or were feeling like you were getting short-changed in how answers to your questions were presented (these things can happen, since we are talking about mortals being mortal in how they do things).

But maybe it really is a case where you will be a “light” among your sphere of influence in a more effective way through your current chosen course of action. The Holy Spirit will indeed guide you in truth, and will do it by the still, small voice spoken of that the disciples on the road to Emmaus experienced and that the prophet Elijah experienced and that Samuel experienced. So keep on keeping on, and being honest with yourself and with God as you have done.👍 God bless you always, and stay as kind and good-hearted as you are now.
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Of course he/she was sincere unlike SeattleCatholic who is insincere. Why is that?
 
zerinus said:
The linchpin of conversion to (and retention in) Mormonism is the Book of Mormon. Mormonism stands or falls on the truth of the Book of Mormon. If your testimony of Mormonism is not based on the Book of Mormon, it is unlikely to be very strong, and may not endure very long. That is how one gets converted to Mormonism, not by getting a “good feeling” in Church.
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I would agree and the credibility of the book of Mormon is completely tied to the credibility of Joseph Smith as the Prophet of God. I just don’t see how anyone can see this guy as credible. Why would God choose a convicted con-artist to be his prophet? Why would he choose to speak through a man who can easily be demonstrated to be a serial adulterer? Afterall, his marriages to already married women are documented in the LDS records. And why would God’s plan so radically change direction 1800 years after Christ saved the world, undoing much of what was originally taught. Why suddenly are we to understand that God was once a person? And that there is no trinity. And that Mary wasn’t really a virgin. And that Jesus wasn’t really serious when he said that we must eat his body and drink his blood to gain heaven (John 6). And that Jesus wasn’t serious when he said he would be always with the Church he founded and that somehow he would allow a complete Apostacy of this church. And how suddenly, if you allow your wife to have sex with Joseph Smith, you will be made a God? And that therefore the 6th commandments is no longer in effect, at least if you claim to be a prophet or Apostle?
How are we to believe any of this from the mouth of a convicted con-man, with no proof at all other than his word? Remember, the all important Golden plates just dissappeared and the Key Book of Mormon concept of the American Indians being the lost tribe of Israel has been disproven with DNA?

I understand that the sense of community and the outstanding family values of the Mormon church can be a very strong pull for many people, but the Mormon Church was built on a lie by a very convincing con-man. Face it, you have been decieved through no fault of your own. You need the grace available in the Catholic sacraments to save you. Don’t take that lightly.
 
evanfaust said:
*Paul C says
The adultery part isn’t that he married 14 year olds, or even that he had 33 wives. The adultery part is that 10 of these women were already married to other men. The documentation is all in the LDS marriage archives. Abrahan, Isaac, Jacob and the others had multiple wives, but never married another man;s wife. David committed adultery with Bathsheba and he was severly punished by God. *

Evanfaust comments…
I found an article that elaborates on Joseph’s sealing of women already married. Most of the evidence points out that these were eternal sealing and not just marriage with the intent of sexual relations.

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_polyandry/Book_chapter

In the case of David and Bathsheba I must point out that the punishment by God was not only because of the adultery, but also for murder.
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well, it elaborates on it, and confirms that Joseph Smith had sex with 10 married women. Although it echos Joseph Smith’s claims that this was for sealing them and making their family gods, it also validates the charge that Joseph Smith was as serial adulterer. Why do you believe that God would suspend the 6th commandment, strictly for the benefit of Joseph Smith and his close followerers? Don’t you understand how much this undermines his claims of being a true Prophet?
 
paul_c said:
Why do you believe that God would suspend the 6th commandment, strictly for the benefit of Joseph Smith and his close followerers? Don’t you understand how much this undermines his claims of being a true Prophet?
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The Mormon Church recently suspended the 5th commandment, too. I’ve been told the Ten Commandments don’t mean much to Mormons.
 
Zerinus - If the book of Mormon is true, why aren’t there ANY archaelogical articfacts to to back it up? Not to mention, the Jews are not related to Native Americans. This is a scientific fact.
When I asked this of Mormon missionaries they told me that they don’t believe that DNA is necessarily accurate (I hope they never serve on a jury in a criminal case!) Also they said that God is “testing” our faith. Wow. Really? God would put this much effort into trying to “stump” everyone?
Are you aware that EVERYBODY knows that the book of Mormon has been completely discreditied by everyone but a small number of faithful Mormons?
We have Mormon friends that tell us that they know they have been lied to about the “truths” in their church, but they continue to attend.
One must be LOGICAL when discussing religion. Logic is based on fact. Your religion has no facts to back up the book of Mormon which you claim is the cornerstone of one’s faith. Therefore, it is not LOGICAL to be a member of your faith.
How difficult and exhausting it must be to try and defend something that is completely illogical.
 
Stephen168 says
The Mormon Church recently suspended the 5th commandment, too. I’ve been told the Ten Commandments don’t mean much to Mormons.

Evanfaust comments,
The Ten commandments mean a lot to Mormons! We strive to have high moral standards! We pursue integrity, purity, love, respect, tolerance and everything else!
 
PaulC says…
well, it elaborates on it, and confirms that Joseph Smith had sex with 10 married women. Although it echos Joseph Smith’s claims that this was for sealing them and making their family gods, it also validates the charge that Joseph Smith was as serial adulterer. Why do you believe that God would suspend the 6th commandment, strictly for the benefit of Joseph Smith and his close followerers? Don’t you understand how much this undermines his claims of being a true Prophet?

Evanfaust says
I understood the article a little differently! The sex part is debatable, and even if he had sex with them he was married to these women. When you are married to someone, sex is no longer adultery! This is called polyandry!
 
evanfaust said:
I understand the scripture as saying that a Bishop should be married, which the Catholics are in violation of! You have the celibate law introduced much later in 1074 AD.
You see, the Pope does not claim to receive revelation from God and yet he has power to change what it says in the Bible. In reality He changed what the scriptures above is saying on the token of flesh and blood alone, since he is not a prophet and does not claim to receive revelation.
Joseph Smith on the other hand, claimed to receive revelation and therefore had power and authorization from God to make changes according to circumstances based on God’s command. The same way Peter received a revelation contrary to what was in previous scripture, and you know what it was. Eating unclean animals! The meaning was the preaching to the gentiles, something contrary to previous revealed scriptures! But He was the Senior Apostle and a Prophet of God.
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You have been shown to be incorrect in your assumption that the Pope has violated God’s laws as described in the Bible. A celibate clergy goes back to Christ himself.

Joseph Smith may CLAIM to receive revelation but you have not shown it to be consistent with the New Testament and therefore; from God.
Your Apostles are contrary to the New Testament.
Your Melchizedek Priesthood is contrary to the New Testament.
Polygamy is contrary to the New Testament.
Adultery is contrary to the New Testament.

Christ or the Apostles did not teach any of these by word or example.
 
Hello all,
Code: 
One thing that I tend to notice about some outside the catholic Church, those that are seemingly more vocal about why they reject the teachings of the catholic church. Often there seems to be some kind of ''''this is corrupt or this was taught wrong or scripture doesn't mentions it"".

First thing that should be recognised about scripture is that in the New Testament there are only about two books that really reveal something not even mentioned in the Old. It largely is a collection of Writings explaining to the Jews how the holy scripture (The old Testament) was fulfilled in certain ways. And probably less than 1% of what was actually discussed or talked about actually got written down. And the only reason we have any scripture is because of problems! That's why there were letters sent. Because the apostles or a trusted mediary wasn't available. Too most of this is all underground covert work. The fear of Persecussion was real. 

Often many think that by somehow reading the scant scripture we have about those times and grasping a few things that """seem""' logical and then fashioning and institution around what they understood things to mean is somehow achieving some kind of pure and untainted form of the early church. 

 What happens as a result is a digression. Trying to attain such a thing you only achieve what amounts to an infancy. Digression into a childlike pattern with a tradition with the same hangups as adolescence. What many don't understand is that the Church had to be structured in a way that resemble the Jewish/Israelite culture because no Good Jew would have throne all that away to be christian.
The reason there isn’t much writing is that Jews who believed Knew Why. They understood and structured the Traditions of the Church as Christ fulfilled there Old Testament prophecies and the Traditions of the Church were fashioned to Show how in the Temple Worship.

There wouldn’t even be a Christian Bible if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church. Who faithfully preserved its writings and Guess what? They also translated and Interpreted what many say is the Infallable word of God. Anything new is just a new religion that’s all.
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The scripture point to the problems others had and when studing them you can get a glimps of how they were solved. If LDS really does believe that the Church ended with the apostles then how do you explain what it meant to be a sacrifice. The apostles all were sacrifices to those that would carry the lite of their tourch. Where the sacrifce was made there the price was paid for the purchase. Sacrifice were for the continuation not an end.
Peace and Godbless
 
evanfaust said:
Evanfaust says
I understood the article a little differently! The sex part is debatable, and even if he had sex with them he was married to these women. When you are married to someone, sex is no longer adultery! This is called polyandry!
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OK Evanfaust, two questions:

How does Jesus define marriage?

And do you accept any marriage as valid?
 
evanfaust said:
PaulC says…
well, it elaborates on it, and confirms that Joseph Smith had sex with 10 married women. Although it echos Joseph Smith’s claims that this was for sealing them and making their family gods, it also validates the charge that Joseph Smith was as serial adulterer. Why do you believe that God would suspend the 6th commandment, strictly for the benefit of Joseph Smith and his close followerers? Don’t you understand how much this undermines his claims of being a true Prophet?

Evanfaust says
I understood the article a little differently! The sex part is debatable, and even if he had sex with them he was married to these women. When you are married to someone, sex is no longer adultery! This is called polyandry!
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Calling it a different name doesn’t change its effect. Its still adultery, which is having sex with another person’s spouse.
 
Stephen168 said:
The Mormon Church recently suspended the 5th commandment, too. I’ve been told the Ten Commandments don’t mean much to Mormons.
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Isn’t the 5th for Catholics, “Thou shalt not kill” or are you talking about their 5th which I am guessing is “honor your father and mother?”
 
evanfaust said:
PaulC says…
well, it elaborates on it, and confirms that Joseph Smith had sex with 10 married women. Although it echos Joseph Smith’s claims that this was for sealing them and making their family gods, it also validates the charge that Joseph Smith was as serial adulterer. Why do you believe that God would suspend the 6th commandment, strictly for the benefit of Joseph Smith and his close followerers? Don’t you understand how much this undermines his claims of being a true Prophet?

Evanfaust says
I understood the article a little differently! The sex part is debatable, and even if he had sex with them he was married to these women. When you are married to someone, sex is no longer adultery! This is called polyandry!
Click to expand...
And you agree JS practiced polyandry?
 
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