LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[paul_c]

PaulC,Neither do I accept your point of view. I have been there Paul. I used to be Catholic since I was a baby, and I woke up! You are trying to show inconsistencies, but they exist only in your mind. I have spent considerable amount of time studying the LDS faifth. Come to the true church of Jesus Christ Paul. There is still time!

Paul Says
There’s nothing prophetic in Joseph Smith admitting that people won’t believe him. He experienced that first hand. Afterall, he was claiming to be able to find treasure through seer stones at the time. A con game for which he as arrested and convicted.

Paul…When Moroni appeared to Joseph and made this prophecy, he told his family initially, and they believed him completely, because he was a truthful boy! You will not find a more honest and sincere family than that of Joseph. Get the facts Paul! I have done more than enough research on this man and his family. I have read Joseph’s biography by his own mother and many others.

The inconsistencis between Joseph Smith’s doctrines and that of true Christianity are obvious. You yourself could list them and have done so. You think that the ancient truths were wrong and that Joseph Smith brought forth the correct truths. By saying this, you are effectively stating that Jesus didn’t save us and that the job had to be left to Joseph Smith 1800 years later. All the while, claiming to be a Christian religion. He effectively rewrote scripture to meet his own needs. .

As for Joseph Smith being a truthful boy, how does that square with his conviction for fraud when claiming to be able to find treasure using the seer stones? And of course his later bank fraud conviction, that caused him to become a fugitive. He was a convincing liar, but a liar nonetheless and he has clearly decieved many. I will not be one of them

 

[rinnie]

JMJ4,
If you are serious in asking this question, then Luther was Catholic until he was excommunicated in 1521 by Pope Leo X.

If he had had his way, the Catholic church would have reformed within (remember, the idea of stopping the practice of “indulgences” and all the reformations he outlined in the Ninety-Five Theses, and the counter-Reformation that basically was somewhat of a result of what he started). It appears he didn’t like that a church was begun that used his name as its title–he would have taken its name only from Christ, if he had started a church, but he didn’t.

I disagree with many of his ideas, but I am grateful he showed people that they didn’t need to subscribe to a belief in the sole authority of the church for understanding what God wanted them to do, and certainly for his translation of the Bible into readable German for the German people, and for his desire to do the will of God even if it was contrary to the “will” of the church.

Hi Parker, and see I am not Happy with what Luther did. He did indeed subscribe in his own belief system. And you are so so correct. He took his desire even if it was contray to the WILL OF GOD. I agree. He had no right.

But he tried and failed. He never brought the RCC down. ITs still is here. Sure he may have taken inocent People from Gods word. But he never took Gods word from the RCC. Because the RCC is Gods Word, still alive and well today as when the HS arrived at Pentecost.

And look at the example he led Sure the Pope and Bishops are human and fail at times. But they never teach on their own word, ITs the HS that they teach on. Gods word.

The RCC has never claimed the Pope is without sin, the same as the RCC never taught Peter was without sin. But to be a sinner does not mean Jesus left the RCC. He promised he would not and he didn’t. We never claimed the Pope was the Holy Spirit. And we never claimed that Peter was the HS. We only claimed what Jesus said that the HS would lead them in all teachings of the Church.

See Luther thought if he could show that the Pope, Bishops etc could sin, then he could lead the Church. Well see he failed. The leaders of the Church here on earth will sin when they make decisions on their own. But never when they are led by the Church which is the HS.

What I mean by that is if you say to me, what do you think? What is your opinion. See my opinion may be Gods, may not. But when the power of the HS speaks, its full proof. Its not the Pope opinion, Its the word of God.

People get confused when the Pope says his opinion and Gods word. Big Big difference.

 

[rinnie]

So you’re saying God had sex with Mary?

Oh My!!

I think I have heard it all now.

For whom it may concern, She was the VIRGIN MARY for goodness sakes. That means no SEX!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca says
He is your Creator. You are a CREATURE. He is not

Evanfaust comments
I am God’s child and so are you! He is my father and yours…We are much more than simple creatures!

Jesus said to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brothers, and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:17

Jesus is Begotten not made.

Are you created? Or, do you think you are a god?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Oh My!!

I think I have heard it all now.

For whom it may concern, She was the VIRGIN MARY for goodness sakes. That means no SEX!

We are seeing the fruits of mormonism. People who defend adultery by making their god a sexual being, his “wife” an adulteress, and making the person they call “Jesus” into a demi-god.

At least evenfaust is honest and doesn’t hide what he believes.

 

[evanfaust]

So you’re saying God had sex with Mary?

zaffiroborant,

NO! I am not saying that! The scriptures do not detail how that conception exactly took place. We go by what the Scriptures tell us, eveything else is just speculation! Because no new revelation has come to us on this subject!

"The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:35

But, my question has other meaning, which is the difficulty of explaining this to a scientist or to a skeptical.

 

[evanfaust]

We are seeing the fruits of mormonism. People who defend adultery by making their god a sexual being, his “wife” an adulteress, and making the person they call “Jesus” into a demi-god.

At least evenfaust is honest and doesn’t hide what he believes.

Rebecca,
Thanks for calling me honest in my beliefs, but the rest of your statement does not represent in any shape or form what Mormons believe and preach. I would not murder your religion the way you did mine. I disagree with your beliefs, but I do recognize the sincerity of Catholics in what they believe.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
Thanks for calling me honest in my beliefs, but the rest of your statement does not represent in any shape or form what Mormons believe and preach. I would not murder your religion the way you did mine. I disagree with your beliefs, but I do recognize the sincerity of Catholics in what they believe.

evanfaust, I only read what you write. If you feel something has been “murdered”, then it is you who are the criminal, not I.

 

[paul_c]

zaffiroborant,

NO! I am not saying that! The scriptures do not detail how that conception exactly took place. We go by what the Scriptures tell us, eveything else is just speculation! Because no new revelation has come to us on this subject!

"The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:35

But, my question has other meaning, which is the difficulty of explaining this to a scientist or to a skeptical.

Evan:

I have been told by Mormons in the past that God is a physical man that was also the archangel michael and according to Brigham Young, he was also Adam. Here is a wikipedia link noting this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%E2%80%93God_theory

I have also been told by Mormons that this God/Man had sex with Mary to lead to Jesus’ birth. The claim that it was a virgin birth is explained away because Mary had sex with an immortal man, not a mortal one. here is a link describing that belief:mrm.org/virgin-birth

You seem to be disavowing what I thought were definitive Mormon teachings on these subjects… What do you consider definitive LDS views on this?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Evan:

I have been told by Mormons in the past that God is a physical man that was also the archangel michael and according to Brigham Young, he was also Adam. Here is a wikipedia link noting this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%E2%80%93God_theory

I have also been told by Mormons that this God/Man had sex with Mary to lead to Jesus’ birth. The claim that it was a virgin birth is explained away because Mary had sex with an immortal man, not a mortal one. here is a link describing that belief:mrm.org/virgin-birth

You seem to be disavowing what I thought were definitive Mormon teachings on these subjects… What do you consider definitive LDS views on this?

And it apparently he God married his own literal daughter. Eeww.

 

[SteveVH]

zaffiroborant,

NO! I am not saying that! The scriptures do not detail how that conception exactly took place. We go by what the Scriptures tell us, eveything else is just speculation! Because no new revelation has come to us on this subject!

"The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:35

But, my question has other meaning, which is the difficulty of explaining this to a scientist or to a skeptical.

The scriptures say that she was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Now lets look at what the founders of your religion say:

"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken–HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. . . .

When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. . .

. . .It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

. . .What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.

. . .Now remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.

. . .Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing." (Journal of Discourses of the General Authorities of the LDS Church, Volume 1)

June 8, 1873, President Brigham Young, Delivered in the new Tabernacle, Salt Lake City:
"How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God—I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first woman upon the earth.

Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth. I have been found fault with by the ministers of religion because I have said that they were ignorant. But I could not find any man on the earth who could tell me this, although it is one of the simplest things in the world, until I met and talked with Joseph Smith."(The Desert News, Discourse, By President Brigham Young, Delivered in the new Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, June 8th, 1873.)
(© THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH | J. Willard Marriott Library 295 S 1500 E SLC, UT 84112-0860)

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavierlives,
Good evening or good morning to you, as the case may be when you read this. I hope you are well.

1. Agreed that sometimes there were multiple prophets; there are fifteen “prophets, seers, and revelators” sustained as such on the earth today, and they go to various places in the world as well as speak on telecasts that are broadcast throughout the world to the members and their friends or to television or computer-linked audiences who look for the broadcast.
2. Yes, there is a succession that is orderly by design. This allows both a seasoning time (preparatory time like before Moses actually became a “prophet”) and a proving, polishing time.
3. It is the same new covenant gospel established by Christ that is found in the LDS church, and it is based distinctly and directly on revelation from God, so any changes in practice are because God revealed the change be brought about. If Joseph Smith had merely been trying to copy the New Testament church, he would have done differently, but being guided directly by God and the Holy Spirit, They directed the changes for the particular will of the Lord at the time.
4. Yes, given that the world needed to be ready (which took a very long time and had many preliminary events), including a place in the world where a church guided by revelation could actually be established without getting completely obliterated by governments or non-freedom-oriented individuals.
5. Joshua succeeded Moses with a very visible pattern of having been called by God.
6. Christ sets free from the “law” in two ways: from the law of Moses, because it has been fulfilled; and because that elaborate law was given because the people weren’t ready to live by higher covenants. A higher covenant gospel has been given to the world because part of the world is ready to live by those higher covenants, and really begin to fulfill 1 Corinthians 2:9-10. Commandments and covenants are not restrictive at all–they lead to greater blessings, the kind of blessings Paul promised and John promised and Christ promised.
7. That would have been the pattern if the Jews (including their leaders) had accepted Christ and the new covenant gospel, but what happened shows that such an eventuality is well-nigh impossible given the temperament of most leaders and most people. Leaders prefer to keep their own status quo including their status quo organization.

But for those who merely look at the gospel as a good way to live–not as a way of covenanting directly with God through an authority that is approved by Him and sanctioned by Him–then one could use the Bible to find a good way to live. But there is far more to the promises than “a good way to live.”

Have a good day, and peace to all.

Since #7 is closest to the thread topic, I will cover this for now (for lack of time prevents the rest).

I’m not sure I understand how this addresses the overall apostacy. If I understand you, the Jews were in Apostacy when Christ came. The apostacy would be their lack of applying the word to hearts. They felt they could wear the word as a cloak and it would protect them. They applied the word to a physical “doing” and believed it would protect them. They failed to see the word and the law were given for man and not for God. It isn’t so God can be close to man, it is so man can be close to God. So, for a hypothetical. Lets say I am on a deserted isle and up washes the OT in a ziplock bag. I could live on that alone. Likewise, if the NT washes up 5 years later, I can see the fullness of it all. The Holy Spirit is what enables this. I can read scripture like John 14:30 and know that Christ speak the truth when he says, “Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.” This is my warning that the devil lurks, trying to find those whom he can devour. He will do so by trying to distort the word. He will do so by trying to corrupt the word. He will do so by trying to add to the word. The only problem he has, is well, he cannot tell the truth. If he told the truth, then he would speak of the word. So he resorts to distort. Don’t get me wrong, he is trying very desperately to look like the truth but the Holy Spirit is our protector.

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavierlives,
Good evening or good morning to you, as the case may be when you read this. I hope you are well.

1. Agreed that sometimes there were multiple prophets; there are fifteen “prophets, seers, and revelators” sustained as such on the earth today, and they go to various places in the world as well as speak on telecasts that are broadcast throughout the world to the members and their friends or to television or computer-linked audiences who look for the broadcast.
2. Yes, there is a succession that is orderly by design. This allows both a seasoning time (preparatory time like before Moses actually became a “prophet”) and a proving, polishing time.
3. It is the same new covenant gospel established by Christ that is found in the LDS church, and it is based distinctly and directly on revelation from God, so any changes in practice are because God revealed the change be brought about. If Joseph Smith had merely been trying to copy the New Testament church, he would have done differently, but being guided directly by God and the Holy Spirit, They directed the changes for the particular will of the Lord at the time.
4. Yes, given that the world needed to be ready (which took a very long time and had many preliminary events), including a place in the world where a church guided by revelation could actually be established without getting completely obliterated by governments or non-freedom-oriented individuals.
5. Joshua succeeded Moses with a very visible pattern of having been called by God.
6. Christ sets free from the “law” in two ways: from the law of Moses, because it has been fulfilled; and because that elaborate law was given because the people weren’t ready to live by higher covenants. A higher covenant gospel has been given to the world because part of the world is ready to live by those higher covenants, and really begin to fulfill 1 Corinthians 2:9-10. Commandments and covenants are not restrictive at all–they lead to greater blessings, the kind of blessings Paul promised and John promised and Christ promised.
7. That would have been the pattern if the Jews (including their leaders) had accepted Christ and the new covenant gospel, but what happened shows that such an eventuality is well-nigh impossible given the temperament of most leaders and most people. Leaders prefer to keep their own status quo including their status quo organization.

But for those who merely look at the gospel as a good way to live–not as a way of covenanting directly with God through an authority that is approved by Him and sanctioned by Him–then one could use the Bible to find a good way to live. But there is far more to the promises than “a good way to live.”

Have a good day, and peace to all.

Since #7 is closest to the thread topic, I will cover this for now (for lack of time prevents the rest).

I’m not sure I understand how this addresses the overall apostacy. If I understand you, the Jews were in Apostacy when Christ came. The apostacy would be their lack of applying the word to hearts. They felt they could wear the word as a cloak and it would protect them. They applied the word to a physical “doing” and believed it would protect them. They failed to see the word and the law were given for man and not for God. It isn’t so God can be close to man, it is so man can be close to God. So, for a hypothetical. Lets say I am on a deserted isle and up washes the OT in a ziplock bag. I could live on that alone. Likewise, if the NT washes up 5 years later, I can see the fullness of it all. The Holy Spirit is what enables this. I can read scripture like John 14:30 and know that Christ speak the truth when he says, “Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.” This is my warning that the devil lurks, trying to find those whom he can devour. He will do so by trying to distort the word. He will do so by trying to corrupt the word. He will do so by trying to add to the word. The only problem he has, is well, he cannot tell the truth. If he told the truth, then he would speak of the word. So he resorts to distort. Don’t get me wrong, he is trying very desperately to look like the truth but the Holy Spirit is our protector.

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavierlives,
Good evening or good morning to you, as the case may be when you read this. I hope you are well.

1. Agreed that sometimes there were multiple prophets; there are fifteen “prophets, seers, and revelators” sustained as such on the earth today, and they go to various places in the world as well as speak on telecasts that are broadcast throughout the world to the members and their friends or to television or computer-linked audiences who look for the broadcast.
2. Yes, there is a succession that is orderly by design. This allows both a seasoning time (preparatory time like before Moses actually became a “prophet”) and a proving, polishing time.
3. It is the same new covenant gospel established by Christ that is found in the LDS church, and it is based distinctly and directly on revelation from God, so any changes in practice are because God revealed the change be brought about. If Joseph Smith had merely been trying to copy the New Testament church, he would have done differently, but being guided directly by God and the Holy Spirit, They directed the changes for the particular will of the Lord at the time.
4. Yes, given that the world needed to be ready (which took a very long time and had many preliminary events), including a place in the world where a church guided by revelation could actually be established without getting completely obliterated by governments or non-freedom-oriented individuals.
5. Joshua succeeded Moses with a very visible pattern of having been called by God.
6. Christ sets free from the “law” in two ways: from the law of Moses, because it has been fulfilled; and because that elaborate law was given because the people weren’t ready to live by higher covenants. A higher covenant gospel has been given to the world because part of the world is ready to live by those higher covenants, and really begin to fulfill 1 Corinthians 2:9-10. Commandments and covenants are not restrictive at all–they lead to greater blessings, the kind of blessings Paul promised and John promised and Christ promised.
7. That would have been the pattern if the Jews (including their leaders) had accepted Christ and the new covenant gospel, but what happened shows that such an eventuality is well-nigh impossible given the temperament of most leaders and most people. Leaders prefer to keep their own status quo including their status quo organization.

But for those who merely look at the gospel as a good way to live–not as a way of covenanting directly with God through an authority that is approved by Him and sanctioned by Him–then one could use the Bible to find a good way to live. But there is far more to the promises than “a good way to live.”

Have a good day, and peace to all.

As for the apostacy in Christianity today (or 180 years ago) I just don’t see it. If there were apotacy, then we would not see the Holy Spirit. We would see Christians living as the world lives. There would be no line between what is of the world and what is of God’s (or, more candidly, it would be all of the world and no God). I just fail to see that. Because I fail to see that, I again find more fault with your truth. Your truth wants the world to believe that God sent his message but that message failed. The truth is, that message did not fail before Christ and has not failed after Christ. The Holy Spirit is here now as it has been. So a distortion of that message is a distorting of the truth, which is a lie.

 

[jake23]

If you think the claims of the other side should be disregarded, what are you doing at an apologetics website? It doesn’t matter what you think the merits of another person’s beliefs are. The arguments of the other side are important, because even if they are not persuasive to you, they are often persuasive to somebody else, who has a soul like yours. For the sake of others, even the silliest arguments deserve as much attention as the best ones. Every claim that we leave unanswered is barrier to the gospel that we leave standing. The whole point of apologetics is to knock those barriers down.

What real knowledge do yo have on either belief. Your pass writings show to me that you lack knowledge on the catholic religion you claim to be part of and I assume the same for the LDS beliefs. I know to be fact that those of the LDS religion are on here to convert others, not learn. It is there beleived responsability to convert. Proclaiming truth is a charity even if it does seem harsh at times! Seriousely though since you have taken the initiative to reply to me in such a matter I want to know what it is you know about either belief?

 

[evanfaust]

Evan:

I have been told by Mormons in the past that God is a physical man that was also the archangel michael and according to Brigham Young, he was also Adam. Here is a wikipedia link noting this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%E2%80%93God_theory

I have also been told by Mormons that this God/Man had sex with Mary to lead to Jesus’ birth. The claim that it was a virgin birth is explained away because Mary had sex with an immortal man, not a mortal one. here is a link describing that belief:mrm.org/virgin-birth

You seem to be disavowing what I thought were definitive Mormon teachings on these subjects… What do you consider definitive LDS views on this?

Paul C,

I am aware of those statements, but these are not all canonical pronouncements. A Prophet is a Prophet only when acting as such. Not every word from a Prophet is considered scriptures. Journal of Discourses is not recognized as an authoritative source. Prophets and Apostles may give their opinion and may speculate as any of us do. The Apostle Paul is an example of that. He stated his opinion too and is clearly recorded in the Bible!

Mormons do not accept all the statements above as official doctrine. Adam is Michael the Archangel, but he is not Elohim our Heavenly Father. We do not have a definitive revelation saying that God was once a man as we are, but we can infer that based on the doctrine stated in Psalms 82:6 and John 10:34 that we are gods. The statement about Mary is also Brigham Young’s opnion, which is not shared by the oficial cannon of the Church.

 

[evanfaust]

evanfaust, I only read what you write. If you feel something has been “murdered”, then it is you who are the criminal, not I.

Rebeca,

Or maybe your mis-interpretation of it. If someone wants to criticize a certain leader from the Mormon Church for a specific pronouncement or behavior I understand and that should be the center of the debate. However, no one should assume and extrapolate their mis-understanding of it onto the whole organization and all members. I think you know what the Mormon values are, but if not I will be glad to state them here to clarify any doubts!

 

[rinnie]

Hi Evan, Still waiting for you to explain to me how the Holy Spirit left the Catholic Church when Jesus promised us that it would never happen.

Either you misunderstood or Jesus lied. I never did get a straight yes or no answer. Are you saying Yes Jesus lied and the Holy Spirit failed. Or are you willing to accept that you are wrong and the Church did indeed Survive.

 

[evanfaust]

Jesus is Begotten not made.

Are you created? Or, do you think you are a god?

Rebecca,

Jesus is the Only Beggoten of the Father in the flesh, but in the spirit we are all begotten of the “father of spirits” and we all are gods living as mortals!

 

[evanfaust]

Hi Evan, Still waiting for you to explain to me how the Holy Spirit left the Catholic Church when Jesus promised us that it would never happen.

Either you misunderstood or Jesus lied. I never did get a straight yes or no answer. Are you saying Yes Jesus lied and the Holy Spirit failed. Or are you willing to accept that you are wrong and the Church did indeed Survive.

Rinnie,

With all the evidences of the Apostasy, the Holly Spirit left! I also explained the word “end of times” meaning a finite period meaning “period”, “epoch”…it comes from the Greek word “aion” and it does not mean forever! The iniquity and corruption of the church caused the Holly Spirit to withdraw from it!