LDS, Spirit, Matter, and Determinism

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I’m curious about the implications of the LDS claim that everything is matter. There is no such thing as a spiritual world, according to Joseph Smith:
“There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified [or resurrected] we shall see that it is all matter” (D&C 131:7-8)
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From what I can tell, the LDS believe that there is nothing that is not matter. What we normally refer to as spiritual is actually just matter.

Some atheists believe in “determinism”. The idea is that if everything is matter, and if all matter is regulated by the laws of physics, then everything that happens is essentially predetermined. Nothing can deviate from the laws of physics. Not even you - the person reading this - can make any choice whatsoever. Because your brain is a combination of physical chemicals and electrical fields and the like. And, those fields are going to behave as they do according to the laws of physics. So, if everything is matter governed by the laws of physics, then there is no free will.

The atheists that subscribe to determinism make this claim despite our regular experience of exercising our free will. The claim is that what feels like a free will experience is simply an illusion.

How can the LDS view on matter escape determinism? It seems that the LDS teaching on matter does not leave room for free will.

I’d like to mention that I read an article on the Fair Mormon site titled “Why Mormon Materialism Matters.” It was easy to look past the condescending jabs at Catholicism. But, what I couldn’t understand is why the points in this article were so disconnected from philosophy and logic. I was looking for a way to better understand the LDS teaching on matter. But, I couldn’t find anything that would let me know if the LDS teaching allows for a non-mechanical understanding of the soul.

Does the LDS teaching on the spiritual world mean that everything is mechanical, and thus eliminate the possibility of free will?
 
in_servitude said:
Does the LDS teaching on the spiritual world mean that everything is mechanical, and thus eliminate the possibility of free will?
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So, what is the specific gravity, the atomic weight, and the refractive index of love?
 
in_servitude said:
Some atheists believe in “determinism”. The idea is that if everything is matter, and if all matter is regulated by the laws of physics, then everything that happens is essentially predetermined. Nothing can deviate from the laws of physics. Not even you - the person reading this - can make any choice whatsoever. Because your brain is a combination of physical chemicals and electrical fields and the like. And, those fields are going to behave as they do according to the laws of physics. So, if everything is matter governed by the laws of physics, then there is no free will.

The atheists that subscribe to determinism make this claim despite our regular experience of exercising our free will. The claim is that what feels like a free will experience is simply an illusion.
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Kinda proves that old saying that “the atheist doesn’t believe in nothing, in the end he believes in everything.”

Just my two cents.
 
The Mormon seems forced to adopt the position that spiritual matter works in such a way as to go beyond mere cause and effect, that spiritual matter does not operate like ordinary matter does in reaction to other physical motions around it.

Yet if spiritual matter cannot be distinguished from physical matter except by how fine or perceptible the material itself is, I do not see how it escapes determinism.
 
in_servitude said:
I’m curious about the implications of the LDS claim that everything is matter. There is no such thing as a spiritual world, according to Joseph Smith:

From what I can tell, the LDS believe that there is nothing that is not matter. What we normally refer to as spiritual is actually just matter.
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You are correct that LDS believe that everything is matter.

I wish I could address the determinism question, but I can’t. Perhaps a a Latter-day Saint smarter than I can address this topic.

But this offers me an opportunity to ask something I’ve wondered about recently. What exactly do orthodox Christians believe that the composition of spirit is? Is there a formal definition?

The word “immaterial” is only used in the CCC once in a paragraph unrelated to spirit. See scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2405.htm.

CCC 327 seems to indicate that spirit can be made out of nothing and is not corporeal.

The profession of faith of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) affirms that God "from the beginning of time made at once (simul) out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal, that is, the angelic and the earthly, and then (deinde) the human creature, who as it were shares in both orders, being composed of spirit and body.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states that “spirit” is used in various material and immaterial ways. See newadvent.org/cathen/14220b.htm.

What are your thoughts? (My apologies if I’m threadjacking.)
 
The soul has no composition. It is immaterial. It is not corporeal, like the body. Meaning, the soul is not a body (material with composition).
 
in_servitude said:
I’m curious about the implications of the LDS claim that everything is matter. There is no such thing as a spiritual world, according to Joseph Smith:

From what I can tell, the LDS believe that there is nothing that is not matter. What we normally refer to as spiritual is actually just matter.

Some atheists believe in “determinism”. The idea is that if everything is matter, and if all matter is regulated by the laws of physics, then everything that happens is essentially predetermined. Nothing can deviate from the laws of physics. Not even you - the person reading this - can make any choice whatsoever. Because your brain is a combination of physical chemicals and electrical fields and the like. And, those fields are going to behave as they do according to the laws of physics. So, if everything is matter governed by the laws of physics, then there is no free will.

The atheists that subscribe to determinism make this claim despite our regular experience of exercising our free will. The claim is that what feels like a free will experience is simply an illusion.

How can the LDS view on matter escape determinism? It seems that the LDS teaching on matter does not leave room for free will.

I’d like to mention that I read an article on the Fair Mormon site titled “Why Mormon Materialism Matters.” It was easy to look past the condescending jabs at Catholicism. But, what I couldn’t understand is why the points in this article were so disconnected from philosophy and logic. I was looking for a way to better understand the LDS teaching on matter. But, I couldn’t find anything that would let me know if the LDS teaching allows for a non-mechanical understanding of the soul.

Does the LDS teaching on the spiritual world mean that everything is mechanical, and thus eliminate the possibility of free will?
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The Mormon church teaches that the laws of physics are universal and eternal. Everything is subject to them including their God(s).

Free will is also taught, in conjunction, though free will in Mormonism has different concepts attached to it that are not found in Catholicism. By this I mean, Catholic teaching is that humans are gifted with free will in order to follow God freely. When not following the will of God this is an abuse of free will. Mormonism, OTOH, defines free will as having as many choices as possible. The more choices available, the more free a person is, and not following the will of God, as they understand it, is an exercise of free will as their God intends.

“Free will”, in this sense, is meant as a “rule of the game”, so to speak, where having as many experiences as possible is necessary to their concept of becoming gods. So choosing this vs that, has a value associated to it, in, whether or not the choice is working towards godhood or away from godhood.

The question you have then, is redefined by redefining what “free will” means.
 
RebeccaJ said:
The soul has no composition. It is immaterial. It is not corporeal, like the body. Meaning, the soul is not a body (material with composition).
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Is that your personal opinion or formal Catholic teaching? If it’s formal Catholic teaching, where is that teaching found?

This CCC paragraph allows for at least two definitions of “soul” and clearly one of them has to be corporeal

CCC 363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person. But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.
 
It seems to me that the OP starts from a position that the orthodox Christian idea of spirit is not subject to the laws of physics. What is that based on? Who’s to say that there aren’t parallel natural laws governing spiritual essence that result in a parallel determinism issue for orthodox Christians? “Laws of Spirit Essence” has a nice ring to it! 🙂
 
gazelam said:
Is that your personal opinion or formal Catholic teaching? If it’s formal Catholic teaching, where is that teaching found?

This CCC paragraph allows for at least two definitions of “soul” and clearly one of them has to be corporeal

CCC 363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person. But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.
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You asked about spirit. Which is the spiritual principle in man. That is what I answered and how I am using the word soul. The nature of our soul is spiritual. The substance of spirit is incorporeal and immaterial. Substantiœ separatœ …the soul and Angela are separate from matter.

It is formal Catholic teaching that we have a spiritual soul.

spir·it·u·al
ˈspiriCH(o͞o)əl/
adjective
1.
relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
“I’m responsible for his spiritual welfare”
synonyms: nonmaterial, incorporeal, intangible

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul,

365 it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

You might also try looking up Aquinas on the subject.
 
gazelam said:
It seems to me that the OP starts from a position that the orthodox Christian idea of spirit is not subject to the laws of physics. What is that based on? Who’s to say that there aren’t parallel natural laws governing spiritual essence that result in a parallel determinism issue for orthodox Christians? “Laws of Spirit Essence” has a nice ring to it! 🙂
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The starting point is an uncreated and omnipotent God, that is not subject to anything outside of Himself. This is the God of Christianity.

If you must posit that God is subject to any law, then you are defining God as less than omnipotent and this is not the God of Christianity.

May as well ask us (Christians), “who’s to say God is not in the likeness of an elephant?”.
 
gazelam said:
Here is the entry on agency on the Encyclopedia of Mormonism: eom.byu.edu/index.php/Agency

I hope this helps…
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Hello gazelam,

Thanks for the link. The document starts off with assertions that are consistent with free will. It does seem to align with what RebeccaJ was saying.

Our experiences clearly demonstrate that we are “beings”, and that “we act.” We make choices, we make decisions. I’m not arguing against that at all. Humans have free will, and I find that to be nearly incontrovertible, and I’m certainly not interested in debating if we have free will or not. To keep things simple for the sake of this thread, how about we just say that free will means that “humans make choices.”

The atheist who subscribes to determinism DOES argue against that. They say that everything is material, and thus subject to physical laws. Nothing can deviate from the physical laws of the universe. So, the atheist has to conclude that the concept of “being” is an illusion, and the concept of “choice” is also an illusion. Humans are just machines. Can a computer make a choice on how to be a good computer vs. a bad computer?

I have been studying the atheist arguments recently. For myself, I believe that humans have souls (and I think that the LDS faith teaches the same or similar). So, this argument of determinism doesn’t convict me at all. I’m aware that my soul (which I believe is immaterial) can make choices and is not subject to any laws of physics.

Then, given what I know about the LDS teaching on matter, I wondered, “How is it possible for a purely material being to be any different from a computer?” It would be interesting to me if those in the LDS faith had thought about this problem, and if they had developed solutions to the apparent contradiction between a purely material being and free will. Thus far, I have not seen this addressed despite my searches.

The reason I am interested in this is just for my own exploration of the atheist arguments around materialism. It is possible that the LDS folks have not worked on this, and that’s fine. I figured, however, that I can’t be the first one to question the consequences of material-only systems when it comes to beings and the LDS teaching.
 
in_servitude said:
Hello gazelam,

Thanks for the link. The document starts off with assertions that are consistent with free will. It does seem to align with what RebeccaJ was saying.

Our experiences clearly demonstrate that we are “beings”, and that “we act.” We make choices, we make decisions. I’m not arguing against that at all. Humans have free will, and I find that to be nearly incontrovertible, and I’m certainly not interested in debating if we have free will or not. To keep things simple for the sake of this thread, how about we just say that free will means that “humans make choices.”

The atheist who subscribes to determinism DOES argue against that. They say that everything is material, and thus subject to physical laws. Nothing can deviate from the physical laws of the universe. So, the atheist has to conclude that the concept of “being” is an illusion, and the concept of “choice” is also an illusion. Humans are just machines. Can a computer make a choice on how to be a good computer vs. a bad computer?

I have been studying the atheist arguments recently. For myself, I believe that humans have souls (and I think that the LDS faith teaches the same or similar). So, this argument of determinism doesn’t convict me at all. I’m aware that my soul (which I believe is immaterial) can make choices and is not subject to any laws of physics.

Then, given what I know about the LDS teaching on matter, I wondered, “How is it possible for a purely material being to be any different from a computer?” It would be interesting to me if those in the LDS faith had thought about this problem, and if they had developed solutions to the apparent contradiction between a purely material being and free will. Thus far, I have not seen this addressed despite my searches.

The reason I am interested in this is just for my own exploration of the atheist arguments around materialism. It is possible that the LDS folks have not worked on this, and that’s fine. I figured, however, that I can’t be the first one to question the consequences of material-only systems when it comes to beings and the LDS teaching.
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I ran across a Mormon, who converted from atheism to Mormonism. He made video after video regarding this topic. His arguments had major flaws, in that he created straw men surrounding creation ex nihilo. I’ll see if I can find his videos. Please hold. 😃

ETA: here you go. They’re kind of hard to slog through, but you’ll get the gist of Mormon ideas of agency, combined with atheist arguments of materialism, made into an argument against creation ex nihilo.
 
RebeccaJ said:
I ran across a Mormon, who converted from atheism to Mormonism. He made video after video regarding this topic. His arguments had major flaws, in that he created straw men surrounding creation ex nihilo. I’ll see if I can find his videos. Please hold. 😃

ETA: here you go. They’re kind of hard to slog through, but you’ll get the gist of Mormon ideas of agency, combined with atheist arguments of materialism, made into an argument against creation ex nihilo.
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Thanks, I’ll take a look at these videos in the coming days.
 
in_servitude said:
Hello gazelam,

Thanks for the link. The document starts off with assertions that are consistent with free will. It does seem to align with what RebeccaJ was saying.

Our experiences clearly demonstrate that we are “beings”, and that “we act.” We make choices, we make decisions. I’m not arguing against that at all. Humans have free will, and I find that to be nearly incontrovertible, and I’m certainly not interested in debating if we have free will or not. To keep things simple for the sake of this thread, how about we just say that free will means that “humans make choices.”

The atheist who subscribes to determinism DOES argue against that. They say that everything is material, and thus subject to physical laws. Nothing can deviate from the physical laws of the universe. So, the atheist has to conclude that the concept of “being” is an illusion, and the concept of “choice” is also an illusion. Humans are just machines. Can a computer make a choice on how to be a good computer vs. a bad computer?

I have been studying the atheist arguments recently. For myself, I believe that humans have souls (and I think that the LDS faith teaches the same or similar). So, this argument of determinism doesn’t convict me at all. I’m aware that my soul (which I believe is immaterial) can make choices and is not subject to any laws of physics.

Then, given what I know about the LDS teaching on matter, I wondered, “How is it possible for a purely material being to be any different from a computer?” It would be interesting to me if those in the LDS faith had thought about this problem, and if they had developed solutions to the apparent contradiction between a purely material being and free will. Thus far, I have not seen this addressed despite my searches.

The reason I am interested in this is just for my own exploration of the atheist arguments around materialism. It is possible that the LDS folks have not worked on this, and that’s fine. I figured, however, that I can’t be the first one to question the consequences of material-only systems when it comes to beings and the LDS teaching.
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I think it’s safe to say that the average devout Latter-day Saint does not contemplate free agency from this angle very much.

Here are some links I ran across…

Here’s an essay by Blake Ostler on “Mormonism and Determinism”: dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V32N04_51.pdf

Here’s a blog addressing the topic: mormonmatters.org/2010/07/07/free-will-vs-determinism-fight/

Here’s a forum discussion: mormondialogue.org/topic/56927-are-free-will-and-determinism-mutually-exclusive/

A couple of Encyclopedia of Mormonism entries…
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Philosophy
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Predestination

I’ve read none of these carefully, but I hope this helps.
 
gazelam said:
I think it’s safe to say that the average devout Latter-day Saint does not contemplate free agency from this angle very much.

Here are some links I ran across…

Here’s an essay by Blake Ostler on “Mormonism and Determinism”: dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V32N04_51.pdf

Here’s a blog addressing the topic: mormonmatters.org/2010/07/07/free-will-vs-determinism-fight/

Here’s a forum discussion: mormondialogue.org/topic/56927-are-free-will-and-determinism-mutually-exclusive/

A couple of Encyclopedia of Mormonism entries…
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Philosophy
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Predestination

I’ve read none of these carefully, but I hope this helps.
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Thank you very much. These are appreciated.

I decided to do a deep dive on one of the items you have listed here. It is a 35 page single-spaced paper. This is written by Blake Ostler, and the content is largely a refutation of another paper written by Rex Sears. From what I can tell, Sears is an atheist that believes in material determinism. Ostler is a Mormon apologist.

I had hoped that Ostler could give some reasons as to why a purely material world’s future state could be determined by anything other than it’s present state. I picked out two possibilities in his paper: quantum mechanics and chaos theory. The problem with both of these is that they do not argue that the future state is dependent on something other than the current state. Rather, they deal with the limitation on knowing something about the current state.

Ostler’s concludes his paper with the following:
It seems to me that Sears has failed to identify any good reasons for adopting determinism. Mormon theology (if there is such a thing) militates against, not in favor of, accepting causal determinism. Further, his responses to arguments against causal determinism seem to me to be unpersuasive. Therefore, I freely choose to reject his view regarding causal determinism. Of course, if Sears is right, I was determined by causes long before I even thought about it to reject his views on causal determinism. Thus, if there are errors in this response to his views, the fault is not in my reasoning, but in the collocation of atoms in my past. You see, given what occurred in the past, I literally could not do otherwise; every word of this article was causally determined long before I was born—if Sears is right.
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The conclusion makes a lot of sense given the paper. Ostler isn’t able to say WHY a purely material universe allows for free choice. But, he does argue that it’s pretty obvious that we DO experience freedom of thought. On this point that free will is experienced, I agree with Ostler 100% - it is obvious that we do make choices. But, that is where he rests his case. I was hoping that he’d attempt to reason his way through that. Perhaps he was thinking that chaos theory or quantum mechanics would have been sufficient means.

I’ll have to look at your other sources later. I do hope to find something that can explain why a purely material world can allow for free will or “agency”. What it would have to do is explain why physical outcomes can vary based on something other than the material itself.
 
Materialism has put them in that untenable position. They are stuck with it. If they were to abandon it, because Joseph was only speaking as a man, then they could adopt the Catholic concept of culpability. But they they would still be stuck with believing that they have the ability to absolutely determine level of culpability, because their god is only a glorified man.

Imagine denying medical treatment to a patient in the belief that such a patient would turn to self-medicating with illegal drugs. Or emotional abuse in the belief that the abused individual would eventually commit suicide.

Just my perception of the problem, as a Catholic with a background in psychology.
 
Did I miss or fail to understand the answer, or was it not given - how can everything be matter. That does not make sense. In the words of one of my favorite philosophers, speaking objectively not disparagingly, it is “absurd”. Love is not matter, nor forgiveness, nor anger, fear, patience, mental tranquility. Is thought supposed to be matter? Are the things thought, such as unicorns and daydreams, actual material things? What about Platonic ideals - how can they be “matter”? Here’s one that might be closer to home for Mormons: Is the Priesthood matter? If it is not, then it is false to say everything is matter, just some things are “more fine.” If Priesthood is matter, than how is it a power - through fission? Seriously, what are the answers to this type of question - In what way are abstracts and ideals and emotions “fine matter”? I hope “fine matter” isn’t just a buzz word without meaning or substance, used to squelch discussions of spirit.
 
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