LDS Sunday School Teaching on Ephesians

[lax16]

The things taught in Sunday School definitely should come from the church. In this case, it should have been chapter 39 in the New Testament Sunday School Manual.

lds.org/manual/new-testament-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual/lesson-39-for-the-perfecting-of-the-saints?lang=eng

The really interesting thing is that the focus of the lesson is supposed to be to help class members identify ways to build their faith in Christ, strengthen the unity between the saints, and protect themselves from the spiritual dangers that are in the world. As far as I understand it, that’s something that all of us on the forum here can agree is important.

So unfortunately, in the case of the poor brother here, he seems to have sat through a class where someone made a few mistakes and taught things that were neither in the lesson, or the church’s theology.

OP states:

*“That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him…”

Followed by the explanation that “most people outside of the [LDS] church” believe that this scripture is talking about Christ. But it is not. It is actually referring to Joseph Smith.
*

LDS Manual states:

lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-44?lang=eng

Joseph Smith holds the keys of the dispensation of the fulness of times.

“I … hold the keys of the last kingdom, in which is the dispensation of the fullness of all things spoken by the mouths of all the holy Prophets since the world began, under the sealing power of the Melchizedek Priesthood.”8

“Every man who has a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the world was ordained to that very purpose in the Grand Council of heaven before this world was. I suppose that I was ordained to this very office in that Grand Council. It is the testimony that I want that I am God’s servant, and this people His people. The ancient prophets declared that in the last days the God of heaven should set up a kingdom which should never be destroyed, nor left to other people. …

“I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.”9

“I have the whole plan of the kingdom before me, and no other person has.”10

Where did the Sunday school teacher get it wrong? It comes straight out of the manual.

 

[Job314]

OP states:

*“That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him…”

Followed by the explanation that “most people outside of the [LDS] church” believe that this scripture is talking about Christ. But it is not. It is actually referring to Joseph Smith.
*

LDS Manual states:

lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-44?lang=eng

Joseph Smith holds the keys of the dispensation of the fulness of times.

“I … hold the keys of the last kingdom, in which is the dispensation of the fullness of all things spoken by the mouths of all the holy Prophets since the world began, under the sealing power of the Melchizedek Priesthood.”8

“Every man who has a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the world was ordained to that very purpose in the Grand Council of heaven before this world was. I suppose that I was ordained to this very office in that Grand Council. It is the testimony that I want that I am God’s servant, and this people His people. The ancient prophets declared that in the last days the God of heaven should set up a kingdom which should never be destroyed, nor left to other people. …

“I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.”9

“I have the whole plan of the kingdom before me, and no other person has.”10

Where did the Sunday school teacher get it wrong? It comes straight out of the manual.

Thanks for the reply, there are a few things that I think may have been misunderstood.

When the manual states that Joseph Smith holds the keys of this dispensation that is church doctrine (obviously). However, they were given to Him by Jesus Christ. The same way that he gave the early apostles the authority to preach the gospel to all nations, baptising them etc. Keys are illustrative of authority from God. Joseph Smith was given the authority to restore the church of Jesus Christ (LDS and Catholic views on the need for a restoration is a topic for another thread )

He also stated in the section you quoted that his testimony was that he was God’s servant. He wasn’t aggrandising himself and saying that the scriptures referred to him when it sounded like they were referring to Christ.

When he said that no one else had the plan of the kingdom-that’s consistent with the LDS doctrine that only one man will be head of the church at one time. I certainly wouldn’t take from that that he thought that Jesus didn’t know the plan of His own kingdom.

If he was a prophet, then he certainly was an instrument (in the hands of God) to lay a foundation that would revolutionise the world and establish the kingdom of God once again.

Nowhere in that lesson do I read that Ephesians was referring to Joseh Smith when it said all things will be gathered in Christ. In fact, after referencing Ephesians 1:10, the manual says “all things whether in heaven or on earth will be in one, even in Christ.”
I think that gives a pretty clear indication that the teacher was in error.

This is becoming quite the thread OP Some great discussions here.

 

[lax16]

Thanks for the reply, there are a few things that I think may have been misunderstood.

When the manual states that Joseph Smith holds the keys of this dispensation that is church doctrine (obviously). However, they were given to Him by Jesus Christ. The same way that he gave the early apostles the authority to preach the gospel to all nations, baptising them etc. Keys are illustrative of authority from God. Joseph Smith was given the authority to restore the church of Jesus Christ (LDS and Catholic views on the need for a restoration is a topic for another thread )

He also stated in the section you quoted that his testimony was that he was God’s servant. He wasn’t aggrandising himself and saying that the scriptures referred to him when it sounded like they were referring to Christ.

When he said that no one else had the plan of the kingdom-that’s consistent with the LDS doctrine that only one man will be head of the church at one time. I certainly wouldn’t take from that that he thought that Jesus didn’t know the plan of His own kingdom.

If he was a prophet, then he certainly was an instrument (in the hands of God) to lay a foundation that would revolutionise the world and establish the kingdom of God once again.

Nowhere in that lesson do I read that Ephesians was referring to Joseh Smith when it said all things will be gathered in Christ. In fact, after referencing Ephesians 1:10, the manual says “all things whether in heaven or on earth will be in one, even in Christ.”
I think that gives a pretty clear indication that the teacher was in error.

This is becoming quite the thread OP Some great discussions here.

Here is proof that Mormons teach in their manual that Joseph Smith can be substituted for Jesus Christ:

1 Nephi 21:1–9—Who Was the One That God Called before He Was Born?
Verses 1–9 describe the Savior, Jesus Christ, who was called before His birth (see v. 1), whose words cut to the hearts of the wicked like a sharp sword (see v. 2), whose life is unblemished like a polished shaft (see v. 2), who is a light unto the Gentiles (see v. 6), and who is despised of men (see v. 7). Because the lives of prophets are sometimes seen as types, or examples, of the Savior, these verses could also properly be applied to Isaiah. They might also be applied to the Prophet Joseph Smith:

• He was foreordained. He testified: “Every man who has a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the world was ordained to that very purpose in the Grand Council of heaven before this world was. I suppose I was ordained to this very office in that Grand Council” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 365; see also 2 Nephi 3:7–15).
• His words were sharp and his life a polished shaft. He said: “I am like a huge, rough stone rolling down from a high mountain; and the only polishing I get is when some corner gets rubbed off by coming in contact with something else, striking with accelerated force against religious bigotry, priestcraft, … lying editors, suborned judges and jurors, … backed by mobs, blasphemers, licentious and corrupt men and women—all hell knocking off a corner here and a corner there. Thus I will become a smooth and polished shaft in the quiver of the Almighty (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 304).
• He was sent to be a light unto the Gentiles. The Lord declared to him, “This generation shall have my word through you” (D&C 5:7–10; see also D&C 86:11).
• He was despised of men. The angel Moroni prophesied that both good and evil would be spoken about Joseph among all people (see Joseph Smith—History 1:33).

1. Review 1 Nephi 20:18–22 and explain how the similes (comparisons using as or like) Isaiah used—a river, waves, sand, and gravel—describe the Lord’s promises to the faithful.
2. Why do you think the wicked have no peace? (see v. 22).
   Activity C iconProphecy Can Be Fulfilled in More than One Way
   A characteristic of many of Isaiah’s prophecies is that they can have more than one application and fulfillment.
3. Study 1 Nephi 21:1–10 and explain how these verses describe Jesus Christ.
4. Explain how these verses can also describe the Prophet Joseph Smith (see also the “Understanding the Scriptures” section).

lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-student-study-guide/1-nephi-20-21?lang=eng

 

[Job314]

Here is proof that Mormons teach in their manual that Joseph Smith can be substituted for Jesus Christ:

… (edited to save space in the thread)

lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-student-study-guide/1-nephi-20-21?lang=eng

The lesson that you quote from is to illustrate the point that Joseph Smith was a prophet. The same things could be said of Moses, Isaac, Jonah, David, or any number of prophets.
In no way is it teaching that Joseph Smith is my saviour. It is not teaching that I should worship him. It is teaching (in the quote you supplied) that he could be seen as a type or someone who’s life could be seen as allegorical to some events in Christ’s life.

I’m sorry if I’ve upset anyone here, that was not my intention. I only meant to clarify some LDS doctrine so that everyone could understand it, even if they don’t agree with it.

 

[zaffiroborant]

The lesson that you quote from is to illustrate the point that Joseph Smith was a prophet. The same things could be said of Moses, Isaac, Jonah, David, or any number of prophets.
In no way is it teaching that Joseph Smith is my saviour. It is not teaching that I should worship him. It is teaching (in the quote you supplied) that he could be seen as a type or someone who’s life could be seen as allegorical to some events in Christ’s life.

I’m sorry if I’ve upset anyone here, that was not my intention. I only meant to clarify some LDS doctrine so that everyone could understand it, even if they don’t agree with it.

Why do you keep assuming you’ve upset people here and apologizing for it, it’s looking a bit like Uriah Heep at this point.

 

[Job314]

Why do you keep assuming you’ve upset people here and apologizing for it, it’s looking a bit like Uriah Heep at this point.

Well that’s the difficulty of text on a screen isn’t it? There’s no tone or body language to help you know how to take what someone has “said”.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Well that’s the difficulty of text on a screen isn’t it? There’s no tone or body language to help you know how to take what someone has “said”.

Why do you default to the person you are discussing things with is “offended”?

 

[RebeccaJ]

The lesson that you quote from is to illustrate the point that Joseph Smith was a prophet. The same things could be said of Moses, Isaac, Jonah, David, or any number of prophets.
In no way is it teaching that Joseph Smith is my saviour. It is not teaching that I should worship him. It is teaching (in the quote you supplied) that he could be seen as a type or someone who’s life could be seen as allegorical to some events in Christ’s life.

I’m sorry if I’ve upset anyone here, that was not my intention. I only meant to clarify some LDS doctrine so that everyone could understand it, even if they don’t agree with it.

I think you just changed the subject.

The OP, said, the passage in Ephesians was applied to Joseph Smith, when obviously, it is a scripture about Jesus.

He didn’t say anything about worshipping JS. It is turning scripture away from Jesus, towards Joseph, which is pretty questionable all around. It’s more like this:

 

[Job314]

Why do you default to the person you are discussing things with is “offended”?

The words that were used seemed quite inflammatory eg. “Do you just ignore God’s voice?”
So it seemed I had upset or offended someone and I just wanted to make sure I hadn’t.

Rebecca you said:

.
The OP, said, the passage in Ephesians was applied to Joseph Smith, when obviously, it is a scripture about Jesus.

He didn’t say anything about worshipping JS. It is turning scripture away from Jesus, towards Joseph, which is pretty questionable all around.

I agree 100%. My original point was that it appeared the teacher was in error and teaching things that weren’t LDS doctrine. Nowhere, in any manual I’ve read, or talk I’ve listened to, has he church taught that the passage in Ephesians which states that all things shall be gathered in Christ (obviously referring to Jesus, as you said), is actually referring to Joseph Smith. That’s about as far as I we seem to be able to get on the matter, since others think differently.

 

[lax16]

The lesson that you quote from is to illustrate the point that Joseph Smith was a prophet. The same things could be said of Moses, Isaac, Jonah, David, or any number of prophets.
In no way is it teaching that Joseph Smith is my saviour. It is not teaching that I should worship him. It is teaching (in the quote you supplied) that he could be seen as a type or someone who’s life could be seen as allegorical to some events in Christ’s life.

The manual clearly states that the same verses that describe Jesus Christ can be applied to Joseph Smith.

Do Mormons believe Jesus was a prophet?

*1 Nephi 21:1–9—Who Was the One That God Called before He Was Born?
Verses 1–9 describe the Savior, Jesus Christ, who was called before His birth (see v. 1), whose words cut to the hearts of the wicked like a sharp sword (see v. 2), whose life is unblemished like a polished shaft (see v. 2), who is a light unto the Gentiles (see v. 6), and who is despised of men (see v. 7). Because the lives of prophets are sometimes seen as types, or examples, of the Savior, these verses could also properly be applied to Isaiah. They might also be applied to the Prophet Joseph Smith:

• He was foreordained. He testified: “Every man who has a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the world was ordained to that very purpose in the Grand Council of heaven before this world was. I suppose I was ordained to this very office in that Grand Council” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 365; see also 2 Nephi 3:7–15).
• His words were sharp and his life a polished shaft. He said: “I am like a huge, rough stone rolling down from a high mountain; and the only polishing I get is when some corner gets rubbed off by coming in contact with something else, striking with accelerated force against religious bigotry, priestcraft, … lying editors, suborned judges and jurors, … backed by mobs, blasphemers, licentious and corrupt men and women—all hell knocking off a corner here and a corner there. Thus I will become a smooth and polished shaft in the quiver of the Almighty (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 304).
• He was sent to be a light unto the Gentiles. The Lord declared to him, “This generation shall have my word through you” (D&C 5:7–10; see also D&C 86:11).
• He was despised of men. The angel Moroni prophesied that both good and evil would be spoken about Joseph among all people (see Joseph Smith—History 1:33).

1. **Study 1 Nephi 21:1–10 and explain how these verses describe Jesus Christ.
2. Explain how these verses can also describe the Prophet Joseph Smith (see also the “Understanding the Scriptures” section).**

I’m sorry if I’ve upset anyone here, that was not my intention. I only meant to clarify some LDS doctrine so that everyone could understand it, even if they don’t agree with it.

What makes you think I’m upset?

 

[Sarcelle]

An LDS guy once ran an experiment back a decade or more ago. He sent a small handful of questions to a dozen or more different Christian denominations (including Catholic and Mormon). Basic, basic stuff like “Is baptism necessary for salvation?” and “Are works necessary for salvation?” and “Can a person who never tithes be saved?”

Then he tallied the answers and put them on a handy chart next to each other. They were all over the map. Nobody agreed on the answers. Many answers utterly contradicted the others. Yes, there were recurring themes, but nobody agreed on everything.

This phenomenon certainly isn’t unique to Mormon Christians. So you tell me lax. If Christians are Christian, why would they all interpret scriptures differently?

So are these basic questions based on the Nicene creed? Catholics, Orthodox, and mainline Protestants agree with most of the Nicene creed.

Do Mormons do?

 

[lax16]

I agree 100%. My original point was that it appeared the teacher was in error and teaching things that weren’t LDS doctrine. Nowhere, in any manual I’ve read, or talk I’ve listened to, has he church taught that the passage in Ephesians which states that all things shall be gathered in Christ (obviously referring to Jesus, as you said), is actually referring to Joseph Smith. That’s about as far as I we seem to be able to get on the matter, since others think differently.

Maybe this is where it gets confusing:

*Elder Mark E. Petersen, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, testified, “The Church to which you and I belong is that stone. It has been cut out of the mountain without hands, and your destiny and mine is to help roll it forth” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 82).

From the days of Adam the prophets have looked forward to the time when the dispensation of the fulness of times would be ushered in and the Lord would “gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth,” which are necessary for his second coming and millennial reign (Ephesians 1:10).

The appointed hour foretold by all the holy prophets came in the spring of 1820 when God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith. **With this glorious **vision the prophetic words of Isaiah began to be fulfilled, wherein he testified that the Lord would do “a marvellous work and a wonder” among the children of men (Isaiah 29:14).

Joseph Smith, called of God, laid the foundation that his successors have built upon. Through the inspiration of heaven, the Prophet translated the Book of Mormon, received the holy priesthood, and organized the Church of Jesus Christ once again among mortal man. Through him the keys of the priesthood were restored.

“And again, what do we hear? …

“The voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope!” (D&C 128:20–21).

With the restoration of these keys Israel could now be gathered in from its long dispersion, and all saving ordinances of the gospel could now be administered for both the living and the dead.

lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times-student-manual/preface?lang=eng*

 

[Job314]

Maybe this is where it gets confusing:

*Elder Mark E. Petersen, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, testified, “The Church to which you and I belong is that stone. It has been cut out of the mountain without hands, and your destiny and mine is to help roll it forth” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 82).

From the days of Adam the prophets have looked forward to the time when the dispensation of the fulness of times would be ushered in and the Lord would “gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth,” which are necessary for his second coming and millennial reign (Ephesians 1:10).

The appointed hour foretold by all the holy prophets came in the spring of 1820 when God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith. **With this glorious ***vision the prophetic words of Isaiah began to be fulfilled, wherein he testified that the Lord would do “a marvellous work and a wonder” among the children of men (Isaiah 29:14).

Joseph Smith, called of God, laid the foundation that his successors have built upon. Through the inspiration of heaven, the Prophet translated the Book of Mormon, received the holy priesthood, and organized the Church of Jesus Christ once again among mortal man. Through him the keys of the priesthood were restored.

“And again, what do we hear? …

“The voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope!” (D&C 128:20–21).

With the restoration of these keys Israel could now be gathered in from its long dispersion, and all saving ordinances of the gospel could now be administered for both the living and the dead.

lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times-student-manual/preface?lang=eng

It does seems there’s some confusion. Beginning with the First Vision, Jesus used Joseph Smith as His instrument to begin the gathering. But they are not gathered in him. They are gathered in Jesus Christ. The same principle applies as when Moses said “this saith the Lord” he wasn’t actually God. No one thought he was saying he was, but he was saying and doing that which God had said, and that which God had asked him to do.

The manual clearly states that the same verses that describe Jesus Christ can be applied to Joseph Smith.

Do Mormons believe Jesus was a prophet?

1 Nephi 21:1–9—Who Was the One That God Called before He Was Born?
Verses 1–9 describe the Savior, Jesus Christ, who was called before His birth (see v. 1), whose words cut to the hearts of the wicked like a sharp sword (see v. 2), whose life is unblemished like a polished shaft (see v. 2), who is a light unto the Gentiles (see v. 6), and who is despised of men (see v. 7). Because the lives of prophets are sometimes seen as types, or examples, of the Savior, these verses could also properly be applied to Isaiah. They might also be applied to the Prophet Joseph Smith

Yes, those particulars (foreordination, one who is despised of men etc.) could be applied to Joseph Smith, or Isaiah, or Moses or any number of prophets. Applying them to prophets as types or representations of the saviour does not change the fact that they are still predominately prophecies about Christ.

The other thing is that nowhere does any manual state that the passage in Ephesians applies to Joseph Smith except that he was the prophet chosen to usher in this dispensation. But it was always under the direction of Jesus Christ.

 

[lax16]

It does seems there’s some confusion. Beginning with the First Vision, Jesus used Joseph Smith as His instrument to begin the gathering. But they are not gathered in him. They are gathered in Jesus Christ. The same principle applies as when Moses said “this saith the Lord” he wasn’t actually God. No one thought he was saying he was, but he was saying and doing that which God had said, and that which God had asked him to do.

Why does Jesus need anyone’s help to gather in?

Yes, those particulars (foreordination, one who is despised of men etc.) could be applied to Joseph Smith, or Isaiah, or Moses or any number of prophets. Applying them to prophets as types or representations of the saviour does not change the fact that they are still predominately prophecies about Christ.

Is Jesus a prophet?

The other thing is that nowhere does any manual state that the passage in Ephesians applies to Joseph Smith except that he was the prophet chosen to usher in this dispensation. But it was always under the direction of Jesus Christ.

The manual states that the same verses that refer to Jesus can be applied to Joseph Smith.

If that is the case, it is possible some would believe that Ephesians is referring to JS as well.

 

[Job314]

Why does Jesus need anyone’s help to gather in?

Is Jesus a prophet?

The manual states that the same verses that refer to Jesus can be applied to Joseph Smith.

If that is the case, it is possible some would believe that Ephesians is referring to JS as well.

He doesn’t need anyone’s help to gather in. The same as he didn’t need help to free the children of Israel from Egypt, or to declare repentance to the people in Noah’s day, or to preach the Gospel when He walked the Earth. That didn’t stop Him however, from calling prophets and Apostles to do so.

I’m not sure why you’re asking that question… Obviously Jesus was much, much more than a prophet.

It is possible that some would believe that the passage in Ephesians is referring to Joseph Smith, but that’s not supported by any doctrine or manual in the church, which is what I was saying from the beginning. Someone made a mistake in reading it, and taught it as doctrine in a class the OP was in. If the passage was understood and taught in accordance with the manuals and doctrines of the church, this thread wouldn’t exist.

 

[kimg901]

He doesn’t need anyone’s help to gather in. The same as he didn’t need help to free the children of Israel from Egypt, or to declare repentance to the people in Noah’s day, or to preach the Gospel when He walked the Earth. That didn’t stop Him however, from calling prophets and Apostles to do so.

I’m not sure why you’re asking that question… Obviously Jesus was much, much more than a prophet.

It is possible that some would believe that the passage in Ephesians is referring to Joseph Smith, but that’s not supported by any doctrine or manual in the church, which is what I was saying from the beginning. Someone made a mistake in reading it, and taught it as doctrine in a class the OP was in. If the passage was understood and taught in accordance with the manuals and doctrines of the church, this thread wouldn’t exist.

So are you saying that your church doesn’t care what is taught to others? The muslims also believe certain verses refer to their prophet as well. And it seems like your church also does the same thing. And as far as adding verses from the b.o.m here, it wont get your far. Maybe one day you will come to know the one true God and our savior Jesus Christ and understand that they do not make mistakes or change their mind.

 

[Job314]

So are you saying that your church doesn’t care what is taught to others? The muslims also believe certain verses refer to their prophet as well. And it seems like your church also does the same thing. And as far as adding verses from the b.o.m here, it wont get your far. Maybe one day you will come to know the one true God and our savior Jesus Christ and understand that they do not make mistakes or change their mind.

I’m not sure where you get that idea from, sorry. All I meant was that one member of the church taught something that isn’t in the manual and isn’t church doctrine. The church cares very much about what is taught, that’s why they produce lesson manuals.

I haven’t quoted scriptures from the Book of Mormon unless they’ve been relevant to the discussion. But thanks for the tip

I’m not sure if you’re deliberately being insulting or just trying to defend your faith against a perceived attack, but I’m working on my relationship the same as you are.

 

[lax16]

He doesn’t need anyone’s help to gather in. The same as he didn’t need help to free the children of Israel from Egypt, or to declare repentance to the people in Noah’s day, or to preach the Gospel when He walked the Earth. That didn’t stop Him however, from calling prophets and Apostles to do so.

You are referring to the OT but Jesus came to fulfill the OT prophesies. HE doesn’t need help. Why would you compare Jesus to Moses and Noah?

I’m not sure why you’re asking that question… Obviously Jesus was much, much more than a prophet.

I wasn’t sure because the LDS manuals were saying that the scriptures referencing Jesus could be substituted for the prophets, including Joseph Smith.

It is possible that some would believe that the passage in Ephesians is referring to Joseph Smith, but that’s not supported by any doctrine or manual in the church, which is what I was saying from the beginning. Someone made a mistake in reading it, and taught it as doctrine in a class the OP was in. If the passage was understood and taught in accordance with the manuals and doctrines of the church, this thread wouldn’t exist.

I just read on a blog of a former Mormon that he was taught the same thing.

 

[Job314]

You are referring to the OT but Jesus came to fulfill the OT prophesies. HE doesn’t need help. Why would you compare Jesus to Moses and Noah?

I wasn’t sure because the LDS manuals were saying that the scriptures referencing Jesus could be substituted for the prophets, including Joseph Smith.

I just read on a blog of a former Mormon that he was taught the same thing.

He doesn’t need help. We agree on that. I wasn’t comparing Him to the OT Prophets, I was saying they helped him. If He wanted He could come to Earth and do it all Himself. But He doesn’t. He has used people throughout history to further His work on Earth. Surely you believe the popes to have done God’s will on earth? Not because He needs their help, but because that’s the way you believe he operates.

I don’t think the manuals said substitute, they said the passages could also refer to prophets, including Joseph Smith.

It’s unfortunate that He was taught that the passage in Ephesians refers not to Christ but to Joseph Smith. Quite clearly it doesn’t, and there’s nothing in any manual to even suggest applying it to him except that He was an instrument the Lord used to begin this dispensation.

 

[kimg901]

I’m not sure where you get that idea from, sorry. All I meant was that one member of the church taught something that isn’t in the manual and isn’t church doctrine. The church cares very much about what is taught, that’s why they produce lesson manuals.
So why was he teaching things that are not from the manual? Was it his own interpretation of said scripture? I understand this very well because I too taught religious education but never gave my own interpretation. It can happen
I haven’t quoted scriptures from the Book of Mormon unless they’ve been relevant to the discussion. But thanks for the tip
Again, quoting b.o.m or any other lds scripture doesn’t hold any weight here. To us its like ready a science fiction book. Sorry but its true.
I’m not sure if you’re deliberately being insulting or just trying to defend your faith against a perceived attack, but I’m working on my relationship the same as you are.
Im not trying to insult you but I will speak my mind and defend my faith (As the Lord Jesus Christ told me to) when someone else tells me Christ left His Church and sent His Apostles to their deaths and all Catholics into sin because according to joe smith, “All other churches had it wrong” which is to say Jesus failed. If your feelings are hurt then so be it. Its your soul to do with it what you want