LDS Temple Sealings

[Horton]

This is a concept that never made a lot of sense to me. I get the warm fuzzy feelings it give families but as a logistical matter, how does this work. I’m going to lay out some scenarios of how I think it may go.

1. You have Jed Parker marry Daisy Sweet. Both were born to practicing LDS families and were each sealed to their parents for all time & eternity. Jed & Daisy get married and sealed in the temple for all time and eternity. Q - 1 What happens to the seal of al time & eternity done with their family of origin?

Jed & Daisy go on to raise a fine family of three boys and three girls having all 6 children sealed to them for all time and eternity. The six children grow up to be young men & women, marry and start families of their own. And through this process all the sealing for time and eternity is going on.

Fifteen years down the line it comes to light that the man one of the daughters married turns out to be not such a good guy, abusive to her and to the children. The safest course of action is to separate/divorce. After the divorce the daughter, we’ll call her Sue, finds a good LDS man, falls in love with him and they want to marry. But alas ex-husband (call him Burt) is against the marriage and refuses to seek a temple divorce. While Sue can marry the good guy and have a good life on earth with him, once she dies she has to go back to Burt. Q-2 What is the solution to this situation?

Sue has a cousin also born LDS to goes of to a non LDS college a long way from Utah. She meets the man of her dream but he isn’t LDS. He is a practicing Christian (denomination is irrelevant) and has no desire to convert to the LDS faith. They go on to have three kids. As dad isn’t LDS the family can’t be sealed for all time & eternity. Q-3 Can the kids be sealed to the mother alone? What if dad opposes the kids taking part in any of the LDS rituals and feels strongly they should be raised in his faith?

I’ll start with this for now. I have to take my mother to her doctor appointment.

 

[Padres1969]

This is a concept that never made a lot of sense to me. I get the warm fuzzy feelings it give families but as a logistical matter, how does this work. I’m going to lay out some scenarios of how I think it may go.

1. You have Jed Parker marry Daisy Sweet. Both were born to practicing LDS families and were each sealed to their parents for all time & eternity. Jed & Daisy get married and sealed in the temple for all time and eternity. Q - 1 What happens to the seal of al time & eternity done with their family of origin?

Jed & Daisy go on to raise a fine family of three boys and three girls having all 6 children sealed to them for all time and eternity. The six children grow up to be young men & women, marry and start families of their own. And through this process all the sealing for time and eternity is going on.
**
Fifteen years down the line it comes to light that the man one of the daughters married turns out to be not such a good guy, abusive to her and to the children. The safest course of action is to separate/divorce. After the divorce the daughter, we’ll call her Sue, finds a good LDS man, falls in love with him and they want to marry. But alas ex-husband (call him Burt) is against the marriage and refuses to seek a temple divorce. While Sue can marry the good guy and have a good life on earth with him, once she dies she has to go back to Burt. Q-2 What is the solution to this situation? **

Sue has a cousin also born LDS to goes of to a non LDS college a long way from Utah. She meets the man of her dream but he isn’t LDS. He is a practicing Christian (denomination is irrelevant) and has no desire to convert to the LDS faith. They go on to have three kids. As dad isn’t LDS the family can’t be sealed for all time & eternity. Q-3 Can the kids be sealed to the mother alone? What if dad opposes the kids taking part in any of the LDS rituals and feels strongly they should be raised in his faith?

I’ll start with this for now. I have to take my mother to her doctor appointment.

Out of curiosity… how is the bolded that much different than a Catholic marriage. I mean lets take your example where Sue and Burt marry and there is no impediment to the marriage. 15 years later Burt has become abusive and Sue divorces him for what she sees as the safety of the children. Later Sue finds a nice Catholic man and wants to marry him, but her abusive ex-husband, Burt, opposes an annulment. So Sue with no other recourse absent the annulment can only civilly marry her new husband and live in sin or remain alone.

 

[Isca]

I think we need a poster who is a member of the LDS church to answer your questions!

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is a concept that never made a lot of sense to me. I get the warm fuzzy feelings it give families but as a logistical matter, how does this work. I’m going to lay out some scenarios of how I think it may go.

1. You have Jed Parker marry Daisy Sweet. Both were born to practicing LDS families and were each sealed to their parents for all time & eternity. Jed & Daisy get married and sealed in the temple for all time and eternity. Q - 1 What happens to the seal of al time & eternity done with their family of origin?

Jed & Daisy go on to raise a fine family of three boys and three girls having all 6 children sealed to them for all time and eternity. The six children grow up to be young men & women, marry and start families of their own. And through this process all the sealing for time and eternity is going on.

Fifteen years down the line it comes to light that the man one of the daughters married turns out to be not such a good guy, abusive to her and to the children. The safest course of action is to separate/divorce. After the divorce the daughter, we’ll call her Sue, finds a good LDS man, falls in love with him and they want to marry. But alas ex-husband (call him Burt) is against the marriage and refuses to seek a temple divorce. While Sue can marry the good guy and have a good life on earth with him, once she dies she has to go back to Burt. Q-2 What is the solution to this situation?

Sue has a cousin also born LDS to goes of to a non LDS college a long way from Utah. She meets the man of her dream but he isn’t LDS. He is a practicing Christian (denomination is irrelevant) and has no desire to convert to the LDS faith. They go on to have three kids. As dad isn’t LDS the family can’t be sealed for all time & eternity. Q-3 Can the kids be sealed to the mother alone? What if dad opposes the kids taking part in any of the LDS rituals and feels strongly they should be raised in his faith?

I’ll start with this for now. I have to take my mother to her doctor appointment.

Horton the answer to this always is, it will be worked/straightened out during the millennium.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Out of curiosity… how is the bolded that much different than a Catholic marriage. I mean lets take your example where Sue and Burt marry and there is no impediment to the marriage. 15 years later Burt has become abusive and Sue divorces him for what she sees as the safety of the children. Later Sue finds a nice Catholic man and wants to marry him, but her abusive ex-husband, Burt, opposes an annulment. So Sue with no other recourse absent the annulment can only civilly marry her new husband and live in sin or remain alone.

Kinda, sorta the same. Except in LDS teaching, their highest heaven is comprised of family units. They have a phrase, “Families Are Forever”. They have a belief that children are sealed to their parents, and when those children have children they are sealed to their parents, and so on. It is the entire premise of their work for dead people, to get everyone all sealed up to each other. It sounds idyllic, if the parents never divorce, and everyone remains believing, practicing Mormons. It gets messy when the ideal is not met.

For Catholics, we are sealed to Jesus. Each one of us at our baptism and confirmation, and we are a communion, as a people, in and through Christ. Not each other. Marriage and familial relationships can get very difficult, confused and broken, but we remain always, sealed to Christ.

As for your scenario, I believe this is what Pope Francis has been addressing. From my understanding, there are changes to tribunals that will take into account impediments to the faithful.

 

[iepuras]

This is a concept that never made a lot of sense to me. I get the warm fuzzy feelings it give families but as a logistical matter, how does this work. I’m going to lay out some scenarios of how I think it may go.

1. You have Jed Parker marry Daisy Sweet. Both were born to practicing LDS families and were each sealed to their parents for all time & eternity. Jed & Daisy get married and sealed in the temple for all time and eternity. Q - 1 What happens to the seal of al time & eternity done with their family of origin?

Jed & Daisy go on to raise a fine family of three boys and three girls having all 6 children sealed to them for all time and eternity. The six children grow up to be young men & women, marry and start families of their own. And through this process all the sealing for time and eternity is going on.

Fifteen years down the line it comes to light that the man one of the daughters married turns out to be not such a good guy, abusive to her and to the children. The safest course of action is to separate/divorce. After the divorce the daughter, we’ll call her Sue, finds a good LDS man, falls in love with him and they want to marry. But alas ex-husband (call him Burt) is against the marriage and refuses to seek a temple divorce. While Sue can marry the good guy and have a good life on earth with him, once she dies she has to go back to Burt. Q-2 What is the solution to this situation?

Sue has a cousin also born LDS to goes of to a non LDS college a long way from Utah. She meets the man of her dream but he isn’t LDS. He is a practicing Christian (denomination is irrelevant) and has no desire to convert to the LDS faith. They go on to have three kids. As dad isn’t LDS the family can’t be sealed for all time & eternity. Q-3 Can the kids be sealed to the mother alone? What if dad opposes the kids taking part in any of the LDS rituals and feels strongly they should be raised in his faith?

I’ll start with this for now. I have to take my mother to her doctor appointment.

Q1: The sealing with the family of origin remains intact. One of the purposes of the sealing of children to parents is to seal all generations together. See Doctrine & Covenants 128:16-25. lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/128.18?lang=eng

Q2: Sue can seek the temple divorce (“cancellation of sealing”) herself. Burt can agree to it and sign the paperwork to allow the cancellation so Sue can be married in the temple to Peter Priesthood. If Burt refuses, it is not entirely clear what happens. Depending on how well connected Sue is, the LDS church can simply ignore Burt’s refusal and cancel the sealing anyway. If she isn’t so lucky, then she is stuck with Burt after death and “it will all be worked out in the millenium”. In the meantime, any children Sue has with Peter Priesthood will automatically be sealed to Burt. Sorry, Peter. Stinks to be you.

Q3: Children cannot be only sealed to mothers. A father is required. Children can be sealed to only a father if the mother is unknown. (I know because I did this in the temple for an ancestor. I didn’t know who was the mother. The ancestor could have been born to an unknown 1st wife who died or was born to the father and 1st known wife a couple of years before they actually got married, so I just had him sealed to the father).

If the husband preceeds his wife in death, she can have him baptized by proxy in the LDS temple. She can also be sealed to him by proxy in the temple. If the children are LDS, they can also be sealed to their parents. (I know people who have done this once dad dies). If the children are not LDS, LDS cousins will have to perform the proxy temple work once everyone dies. If dad refuses to allow the children to be raised LDS, there is a good chance his fatherly authority will be undermined by his wife and her family at every opportunity. The children will be reminded that they will not have a forever family because their father doesn’t love them enough. If mom and her family are successful, the children will beg their father for LDS baptism and he will be made out to be the bad guy if he refuses to allow it.

 

[Dorothy]

Out of curiosity… how is the bolded that much different than a Catholic marriage. I mean lets take your example where Sue and Burt marry and there is no impediment to the marriage. 15 years later Burt has become abusive and Sue divorces him for what she sees as the safety of the children. Later Sue finds a nice Catholic man and wants to marry him, but her abusive ex-husband, Burt, opposes an annulment. So Sue with no other recourse absent the annulment can only civilly marry her new husband and live in sin or remain alone.

An annulment can still be pursued if one of the persons involved chooses not to be a part of it.

Also, with the help of the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, through prayer and the sacraments He gave us, a person can live without a spouse.

 

[lax16]

Q1: The sealing with the family of origin remains intact. One of the purposes of the sealing of children to parents is to seal all generations together. See Doctrine & Covenants 128:16-25. lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/128.18?lang=eng

Isn’t it one of the promises to the LDS faithful to be head of one’s own planet/universe after they die? How can that be if generations of people are all together?

Q3: Children cannot be only sealed to mothers. A father is required. Children can be sealed to only a father if the mother is unknown. (I know because I did this in the temple for an ancestor. I didn’t know who was the mother. The ancestor could have been born to an unknown 1st wife who died or was born to the father and 1st known wife a couple of years before they actually got married, so I just had him sealed to the father).

What if a single woman decides to adopt?

 

[Padres1969]

**An annulment can still be pursued if one of the persons involved chooses not to be a part of it.
**
Also, with the help of the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, through prayer and the sacraments He gave us, a person can live without a spouse.

True. But that’s not what I was proposing above. I was mentioning a situation where the ex-husband was actually actively working against the annulment, not simply ignoring it.

Also your statement about living without a spouse is nice, but to me it reads a lot like the LDS statement regarding permanent sealing. Comes across as essentially, “too bad, so sad.”

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Q2: Sue can seek the temple divorce (“cancellation of sealing”) herself. Burt can agree to it and sign the paperwork to allow the cancellation so Sue can be married in the temple to Peter Priesthood. If Burt refuses, it is not entirely clear what happens. Depending on how well connected Sue is, the LDS church can simply ignore Burt’s refusal and cancel the sealing anyway. If she isn’t so lucky, then she is stuck with Burt after death and “it will all be worked out in the millenium”. In the meantime, any children Sue has with Peter Priesthood will automatically be sealed to Burt. Sorry, Peter. Stinks to be you.

If Burt is abusive, presumably he’s not a faithful LDS, and wouldn’t that endanger his chances of entering the Celestial Kingdom?

 

[Dorothy]

True. But that’s not what I was proposing above. I was mentioning a situation where the ex-husband was actually actively working against the annulment, not simply ignoring it.

Also your statement about living without a spouse is nice, but to me it reads a lot like the LDS statement regarding permanent sealing. Comes across as essentially, “too bad, so sad.”

In response to your first sentence above, witnesses can be used by the partner seeking a decree of nullity.

With regard to “too bad, so sad”, the grace of the Lord is always available when asked for. People rise above their circumstances when they freely choose to follow the Lord.

 

[gazelam]

Isn’t it one of the promises to the LDS faithful to be head of one’s own planet/universe after they die? How can that be if generations of people are all together?

Not sure how the whole “Mormons get a planet” thing started, but there is no LDS ordinance/sacrament or canonized scripture that states that faithful Latter-day Saint will be given a planet as part of partaking of Eternal Life.

mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C14

 

[Horton]

Out of curiosity… how is the bolded that much different than a Catholic marriage. I mean lets take your example where Sue and Burt marry and there is no impediment to the marriage. 15 years later Burt has become abusive and Sue divorces him for what she sees as the safety of the children. Later Sue finds a nice Catholic man and wants to marry him, but her abusive ex-husband, Burt, opposes an annulment. So Sue with no other recourse absent the annulment can only civilly marry her new husband and live in sin or remain alone.

The bolded is very different. Catholics believe marriage is until death, not for all time & eternity as the LDS believe. Catholic Sue has full recourse to petition a marriage tribunal to examine her marriage. LDS Sue does not have the same recourse. Another poster addressed how LDS Sue may deal with the situation but she will remain “sealed for all time & eternity” to abusive Burt.

In addition my understanding is that a male can be sealed to more than one living woman. For example abusive Burt remains sealed to Sue but legally divorced, then marries Betty and can be sealed to her and any children she may have prior to their marriage. Also if a man’s wife passes away he can be married and sealed to another woman but if a woman’s husband passes away, she can remarry but not get sealed to again.

 

[Horton]

If Burt is abusive, presumably he’s not a faithful LDS, and wouldn’t that endanger his chances of entering the Celestial Kingdom?

Depends who knows about it. If it’s a well kept secret or Burt has connections, then no, he’s safe.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Depends who knows about it. If it’s a well kept secret or Burt has connections, then no, he’s safe.

Wouldn’t God the Father have something to say about that?

 

[iepuras]

Wouldn’t God the Father have something to say about that?

Heavenly Father was ok with 30+ year old already married men marrying 14 year old girls, so who knows?

Plus, even if the man is a known abuser, LDS leadership may or may not care. It really depends.

 

[Horton]

Q1: The sealing with the family of origin remains intact. One of the purposes of the sealing of children to parents is to seal all generations .

But that just doesn’t make sense. How can someone be “sealed for all time & eternity” to two family groups. For instance a young woman is sealed to her parents, then marries and is sealed to her husband. Their children get sealed to them, grow up, marry, sealed to another family group. And on & on?

Q3: Children cannot be only sealed to mothers. A father is required. Children can be sealed to only a father if the mother is unknown. (I know because I did this in the temple for an ancestor. I didn’t know who was the mother. The ancestor could have been born to an unknown 1st wife who died or was born to the father and 1st known wife a couple of years before they actually got married, so I just had him sealed to the father).

If the husband preceeds his wife in death, she can have him baptized by proxy in the LDS temple. She can also be sealed to him by proxy in the temple. If the children are LDS, they can also be sealed to their parents. (I know people who have done this once dad dies). If the children are not LDS, LDS cousins will have to perform the proxy temple work once everyone dies. If dad refuses to allow the children to be raised LDS, there is a good chance his fatherly authority will be undermined by his wife and her family at every opportunity. The children will be reminded that they will not have a forever family because their father doesn’t love them enough. If mom and her family are successful, the children will beg their father for LDS baptism and he will be made out to be the bad guy if he refuses to allow it.

What if the father refuses his baptism after death? We’ve been told by LDS posters that in baptism for the dead the baptized gets the opportunity to reject the baptism right?

The bolded part is just sad.

 

[Horton]

Wouldn’t God the Father have something to say about that?

One would think so right?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Heavenly Father was ok with 30+ year old already married men marrying 14 year old girls, so who knows?

Plus, even if the man is a known abuser, LDS leadership may or may not care. It really depends.

Yeah but wouldn’t God, in his great mercy and compassion, override the desires of wicked Church leaders and do the right thing?

 

[gazelam]

I’ll take a crack. I don’t have time to scrutinize all of the other responses so I apologize in advance for any duplication in my response.

This is a concept that never made a lot of sense to me. I get the warm fuzzy feelings it give families but as a logistical matter, how does this work. I’m going to lay out some scenarios of how I think it may go.

1. You have Jed Parker marry Daisy Sweet. Both were born to practicing LDS families and were each sealed to their parents for all time & eternity. Jed & Daisy get married and sealed in the temple for all time and eternity. Q - 1 What happens to the seal of al time & eternity done with their family of origin?

In addition to a husband being sealed to a wife, a child is separately sealed to his/her parents. Children born to parents already sealed to each other are automatically born sealed to the parents. (This is known as being “born in the covenant”.) So in the Jed and Daisy scenario (assuming they were both born to LDS parents already sealed to their respective spouses) the only live sealing of which Jed and Daisy would be participants would be that of their being sealed to each other. (I’m using the term “live sealing” to distinguish between that and a vicarious sealing.)

However, if Jed and Daisy joined the LDS church after already having children, they would want three separate sealings - one to each other, one to their children, and each one being sealed as a child to his or her parents. (Living parents would need to be LDS and consent, or deceased for this to occur.)

Jed & Daisy go on to raise a fine family of three boys and three girls having all 6 children sealed to them for all time and eternity. The six children grow up to be young men & women, marry and start families of their own. And through this process all the sealing for time and eternity is going on.

Fifteen years down the line it comes to light that the man one of the daughters married turns out to be not such a good guy, abusive to her and to the children. The safest course of action is to separate/divorce. After the divorce the daughter, we’ll call her Sue, finds a good LDS man, falls in love with him and they want to marry. But alas ex-husband (call him Burt) is against the marriage and refuses to seek a temple divorce. While Sue can marry the good guy and have a good life on earth with him, once she dies she has to go back to Burt. Q-2 What is the solution to this situation?

Sue can request that her sealing to Burt be cancelled in order to be sealed to another man. Note that she could marry civilly to another man after being legally divorced and still be sealed to Burt and not be considered in an adulterous situation. A civil marriage could occur first and with the sealing occurring later.

Sue has a cousin also born LDS to goes of to a non LDS college a long way from Utah. She meets the man of her dream but he isn’t LDS. He is a practicing Christian (denomination is irrelevant) and has no desire to convert to the LDS faith. They go on to have three kids. As dad isn’t LDS the family can’t be sealed for all time & eternity. Q-3 Can the kids be sealed to the mother alone? What if dad opposes the kids taking part in any of the LDS rituals and feels strongly they should be raised in his faith?

The kids cannot be sealed to the mother alone, there would be no issue of the mother being sealed to the children without the knowledge of the father.

These sealing will only be valid in the next life if the individuals remain faithful in this life. I hope this helps.

I’ll start with this for now. I have to take my mother to her doctor appointment.

I hope your mother is OK.