LDS: The 'first copy' of the Book of Mormon??

[Carl_Nicholas]

I gave a couple of links. The translation process was not that simple. David referred to a hat but that was many years later. However, he never denied his testimony as can be seen from the link I provided previously. The hat doesn’t bother me. I think that it is interesting and intrigueing. Why would JS write a book and then stick his head in a hat and automatic write a book when he had a manuscript, if he were a fraud. Now of course, his wife testified that he had no manuscript or paper. And so, how to explain it?

Why Me,
Hello again and thank you for taking time to respond.

I must ask you this ( I am being genuine )

How can you say the " hat thing " does NOT bother you ???

The " hat thing " Would COMPLETLY contradict the VERY METHOD AND BIRTH OF THE BOOK OF MORMON. IT IS the core and reason for the faith.

If the so called " looking in the hat while translating" while the " so called gold bars "were not even in the same room as JS or the scibes, THEN WHAT WAS HE TRANSLATING FROM???

Sincerly,
Carl

 

[wmscott]

All but that one. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Strait_of_belle_isle.png

The BOM has appeared to many to be a heavily fictionalized account of the Viking invasion of North America.

As such, this makes the LDS church, developed from the fictional “Nephite” church, a proto-Nazi organization. Take a look at the CONTENT of the book.

As for Whitmer’s account, I wonder how old and widespread the expression “talking out of your hat” for making up a fantastic lie is.

So if the stuff I listed is TRUE except the one about the maps, where are the Mormons to explain these beliefs? To me it seems when confronted with the truth they run and hide. What’s up with that?

 

[BartBurk]

If that were true, Joseph Smith was an incomparable genius. If he made it up out of his own imagination, people ought to take a second or third look at it. The sermons (particularly those of Christ following his resurrection and of Abinidi and King Benjamin) are masterpieces of theology. The parable of the olive tree from Jacob 5 is more than astounding. I’m sorry, but the claim that he made it up on the fly strains credibility more than the idea that God inspired him.

Alma

The more likely scenario is that he simply worked with Oliver Cowdrey to produce a book based on a previously written manuscript. The sermons are pretty much standard 19th century Protestant fare. The parable of the olive tree is just an expansion of Romans 11:16-24. There really is nothing astounding about the Book of Mormon at all.

There are so many things wrong with the Book of Mormon that it is hard to get impressed with the tale. From archaeology to DNA to problems with linguistics … the problems are pretty overwhelming.

 

[PaulDupre]

Sandra and Jerald Tanner (he died) are and were born again christians dedicated to destroying the lds church. I would not call them unbiased. However, you can read this:

lightplanet.com/mormons/response/bom/Witnesses_Roper.htm

Whatever the Tanners may have written always can be responded to. They have proved nothing at all.

Why does that matter? The article was not written by the Tanners. It was written in a public newspaper 100 years before the Tanners were born.

Besides, the Tanners became born-again Christians after they were excommunicated from the LDS Church for asking embarrassing questions about LDS history - like all those professors at BYU.

Paul

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

A query for all Mormon posters on this thread

Some of you have stated the “hat method” as ONE story of the BoM’s “translation”.

Please cite other witness testimonies, with pertinant quotations and url links

Thank you

 

[AMDGtoo]

Why Me,
How can you say the " hat thing " does NOT bother you ???

I agree, how can you say that the “hat thing” doesn’t bother you–especially since the felting process in making hats creates toxic fumes which have been known to cause brain damage and hallucination and it seems that there had to be breathing of these toxic fumes if the story is as it is? (I’m sure you have heard the phrase “mad as a hatter” before?)

 

[RebeccaJ]

Why Me,
Hello again and thank you for taking time to respond.

I must ask you this ( I am being genuine )

How can you say the " hat thing " does NOT bother you ???

The " hat thing " Would COMPLETLY contradict the VERY METHOD AND BIRTH OF THE BOOK OF MORMON. IT IS the core and reason for the faith.

If the so called " looking in the hat while translating" while the " so called gold bars "were not even in the same room as JS or the scibes, THEN WHAT WAS HE TRANSLATING FROM???

Sincerly,
Carl

seer stones were, and are used, for so-called divination. mormons i have talked with who know of the seer stone being used for treasure hunting as well as the face-in-the-hat “translation” see it as the same thing, a God-given gift for divining.

This is NOT the teaching of the LDS church itself. As with all things Mormonism, you can pretty much believe anything you like, as there is no such thing as orthodoxy in Mormonism.

 

[Jerusha]

So if the stuff I listed is TRUE except the one about the maps, where are the Mormons to explain these beliefs? To me it seems when confronted with the truth they run and hide. What’s up with that?

They have too much invested in it. See the cognitive rigidity and religious fundamentalism thread. There are so many who will not change until the LDS church topples.

 

[Jerusha]

I agree, how can you say that the “hat thing” doesn’t bother you–especially since the felting process in making hats creates toxic fumes which have been known to cause brain damage and hallucination and it seems that there had to be breathing of these toxic fumes if the story is as it is? (I’m sure you have heard the phrase “mad as a hatter” before?)

I think you nailed it. Thank you. Maybe he was getting high from the fumes.

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

seer stones were, and are used, for so-called divination. mormons i have talked with who know of the seer stone being used for treasure hunting as well as the face-in-the-hat “translation” see it as the same thing, a God-given gift for divining.

This is NOT the teaching of the LDS church itself. As with all things Mormonism, you can pretty much believe anything you like, as there is no such thing as orthodoxy in Mormonism.

Hi RebeccaJ,
Thanks for your info.

I am aware of the seer stone history.
The question was the " hat translation"

The witness ( David ) speaks of JS translating the BoM from the hat ( at a time when the gold tabs as well as the stones where not even in the same building )

This is why I asked, why me, WHAT JS was " translating " if the gold tabs written in an acient language were not even there.

My thoughts , In order to translate the Book Of Mormon from the Gold tabs, I would think you MAY want to have the tabs there at the time you are translating???

also would you be so kind ( if you know ) what is the teaching of the church regarding the " hat translation "???
God bless,
Carl

 

[Jerusha]

I’m not sure, but I think that the seer stones were in the bottom of the hat.

 

[RC_Matt]

I
It is uncertain just how the translation process occured. But it is all in the lds church magazine ‘Ensign’. It was David Whitmer who mentioned the hat and that was many years after the event. Who knows if he were joking after being asked over and over again about the book of mormon.

According to Mormon historians, Emma Smith (his fist wife), William Smith (his brother) and Martin Harris (a witness to the Book of Mormon) also gave first hand accounts of the translation having been done with the seer stone in a hat. There is also an 1834 affidavit executed by Isaac Hale (his first father-in-law) attesting to that method and similar accounts given by others as well.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

I guess from the silence there is NO witness account of Joseph Smith using anything but the hat & stones w/ the “plates” (at best) under a blanket

 

[PaulDupre]

I looked and couldn’t find any other description of the translation process. The LDS church accepts the stone-in-the-hat version.

Paul

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

According to Mormon historians, Emma Smith (his fist wife), William Smith (his brother) and Martin Harris (a witness to the Book of Mormon) also gave first hand accounts of the translation having been done with the seer stone in a hat. There is also an 1834 affidavit executed by Isaac Hale (his first father-in-law) attesting to that method and similar accounts given by others as well.

Hi RC Matt,

In these Mormon historian accounts you post,

Do any of them mention if ( or where ) the gold Tabs are during the " hat and stone accounts "

Thanks,
God bless,
Carl

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

I looked and couldn’t find any other description of the translation process. The LDS church accepts the stone-in-the-hat version.

Paul

Hi Paul,
I also asked a couple Morman folks I know ( they tell me the story of JS finding Gold tablets and then translating these gold tablets into the now BoM.

So I guess I am still confused as to what ( if the hat and stone story is in play with no gold tablets ) it is JS is Translating from???

God bless,
Carl

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Hi Paul,
I also asked a couple Morman folks I know ( they tell me the story of JS finding Gold tablets and then translating these gold tablets into the now BoM.

So I guess I am still confused as to what ( if the hat and stone story is in play with no gold tablets ) it is JS is Translating from???

God bless,
Carl

He wasnt translating from anything.

At best he was plagarizing a STOLEN copy of an unpublished manuscript of deceased preacher Soloman Spaulding–said manuscript provided (stolen) by Stanley (?) Rigdon from the publishing firm Rigdon worked at, the SAME publisher that had published a prior book of Spaulding (View from the Hebrews) the SAME publisher than ended up printing the first edition of the Book of Mormon.

More on this later as I get some references

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

He wasnt translating from anything.

At best he was plagarizing a STOLEN copy of an unpublished manuscript of deceased preacher Soloman Spaulding–said manuscript provided (stolen) by Stanley (?) Rigdon from the publishing firm Rigdon worked at, the SAME publisher that had published a prior book of Spaulding (View from the Hebrews) the SAME publisher than ended up printing the first edition of the Book of Mormon.

More on this later as I get some references

Lion,
I look forward to the coming ref’s
God bless,
Carl

 

[RC_Matt]

Hi RC Matt,

In these Mormon historian accounts you post,

Do any of them mention if ( or where ) the gold Tabs are during the " hat and stone accounts "

Thanks,
God bless,
Carl

According to Issac Hale, the plates were not present; they were hidden in the woods.

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

According to Issac Hale, the plates were not present; they were hidden in the woods.

Thank you for the answer to my question.

Carl