LDS: The 'first copy' of the Book of Mormon??

  • Thread starter Thread starter Catholic_Dude
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The part in red is unacceptable to me. The account that involves Joseph Smith reading out of a hat with the plates in another room is down right questionable and absurd. The only other option is that he had the plates and paper on a desk in front of himself. When it comes to the most important book ever written, such issues are very important.

That article seems to put the emphasis on the accounts where the plates and U&T are mentioned and downplays the Whitmer account of Joseph reading out of a hat.

One quote that really stood out was:
In fact, the language in the sections of the Book of Mormon that correspond to parts of the Bible is quite regularly *selected *by Joseph Smith, rather than obtained through independent translation. For instance, there are over 400 verses in which the Nephite prophets quote from Isaiah, and half of these appear precisely as the King James version renders them. Summarizing the view taken by Latter-day Saint scholars on this point, Daniel H. Ludlow emphasizes the inherent variety of independent translation and concludes: “There appears to be only one answer to explain the word-for-word similarities between the verses of Isaiah in the Bible and the same verses in the Book of Mormon.” That is simply that Joseph Smith must have opened Isaiah and tested each mentioned verse by the Spirit: “If his translation was essentially the same as that of the King James version, he apparently quoted the verse from the Bible.%between% Thus the Old Testament passages from Isaiah display a particular choice of phraseology that suggests Joseph Smith’s general freedom throughout the Book of Mormon for optional wording.
This kind of talk is very disturbing. On one hand I get the impression God was guiding a word for word ‘perfect English translation’ and yet I read things like this which say Smith freely lifted passages from here and there.
 
Was it that or more like they weren’t asked and probably hoped that folks would simply “forget” and not accuse them of intentionally “fibbing”. I know that I don’t know many people who would impugn their own honor–too embarrassing and there may be legal problems.
I think I might have figured out why they didn’t deny their testimony of the Book of Mormon. Here is some info I found on Wikipedia, I know it isnt the best place but I assume it presents the general facts:After the assassination of Joseph Smith in 1844, several rival leaders claimed to be Smith’s successor, including Brigham Young, Sidney Rigdon, and James J. Strang. Many of Rigdon’s followers became disillusioned by 1847 and some, including Apostle William E. M’Lellin and Benjamin Winchester, remembered Whitmer’s 1834 ordination to be Smith’s successor. At M’Lellin’s urging, Whitmer exercised his claim to be Smith’s successor and the Church of Christ (Whitmerite) was formed in Kirtland, Ohio. However, Whitmer never joined the body of the new church and it dissolved relatively quickly.

Around this time, fellow Book of Mormon witness Oliver Cowdery, began to correspond with Whitmer. After traveling from Ohio to Kanesville (Council Bluffs), Cowdery met in the Kanesville Tabernacle meeting, called to sustain Brigham Young as the new President of the Church; Cowdery bore his testimony with a conviction to the truthfulness of everything that had happened spiritually with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Meeting with Young at Winter Quarters, Nebraska, he requested readmission into the Church, where he was re-baptised into the church. Cowdery then travelled to meet with Whitmer in Richmond, to persuade David Whitmer to move west with him to rejoin the Saints in Utah. While staying with Whitmer, however, Cowdery succumbed to consumption [teburculosis] and died.

Whitmer continued to live in Richmond and in 1867, he was elected to fill an unexpired term as mayor (1867–1868). **In 1876, Whitmer again asserted his claim to be the successor of Joseph Smith **and organized a second Church of Christ (Whitmerite). In 1887, he published a pamphlet entitled An Address to All Believers in Christ, in which he affirmed his testimony of the Book of Mormon, but denounced The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day SaintsUtah in . At the end of his life, Whitmer ordained a nephew to be his successor. David Whitmer died January 25, 1888 in Richmond. The Whitmerite church survived until the 1960s.
If the general information presented here is true then what we see is the framework for a great hoax gone wrong. There is infighting that erupts after Smith dies with various men claiming succession. .

From Cowdery’s Wiki page it says he was excommunicated for fighting with Smith over who was to lead. An odd fight for someone to pick if someone really believed Joseph Smith to be supreme prophet of God. From the above quote I can envision that Cowdery struck a deal with Brigham Young and would use his “testimony” to support Brigham Young’s party. In exchange Cowdery would receive a new high office in the future, but a year after being readmitted he died of teburculosis.

IF the general information above is true then we have a pretty strong idea why Whitmer never denied the plates, it would destroy his OWN CLAIM to LDS Church leadership which he apparently maintainted till his death. What is deceptive about LDS claims that Whitmer never denied testimony of the plates is that they leave out the fact Whitmer denounced the LDS in Utah and claimed himself to be leader.

From the Wiki Page on the Third Witness, Martin Harris, it appears Harris originally supported James Strang. And later Harris supported Whitmer’s claim to the leadership role. After a life of mindless wandering through various religions he was left in poverty and accepted a “free room and board” deal if he would come home to Utah and affirm his ‘testimony’.

So, if this is true, the question of “why did they maintain their testimony to the BOM despite the fact they each were kicked out of the LDS Church” is not so much of a mystery. Each used this testimony as a tool to exercise power later on.
 
Also, Whitmer left the church but did not deny his testimony. No death threats just a fact. If I am not mistaken, he affirmed what he saw on his deathbed.

You must be faithful in Christ. I want to say to you all that the Bible and the record of the Nephites, (The Book of Mormon) are true, so you can say that you have heard me bear my testimony on my death bed…
On Monday morning he again called those present to his bedside, and told them that he had seen another vision which reconfirmed the divinity of the “Book of Mormon,” and said that he had seen
Christ in the fullness of his glory and majesty, sitting upon his great white throne in heaven waiting to receive his children
.
Picture this, the same man who affirms the truth of the Book of Mormon YET is excommunicated from the LDS Church and has his own church set up ENDS his quote saying he saw Jesus in Heaven waiting to receive his children. Obviously the only people who are God’s children are the ones being faithful to His Church, thus Whitmer (from the perspective of ‘Utah Mormons’) is a damned liar in this quote. This is the deathbed testimony of someone living in grave sin (condemning the true Utah Church) yet claiming Heavenly visions of Jesus.

The answer is obvious: he maintained his testimony of the BoM as way of claiming leadership for his own “Whitmerite LDS Church”.
 
Picture this, the same man who affirms the truth of the Book of Mormon YET is excommunicated from the LDS Church and has his own church set up ENDS his quote saying he saw Jesus in Heaven waiting to receive his children. Obviously the only people who are God’s children are the ones being faithful to His Church, thus Whitmer (from the perspective of ‘Utah Mormons’) is a damned liar in this quote. This is the deathbed testimony of someone living in grave sin (condemning the true Utah Church) yet claiming Heavenly visions of Jesus.

The answer is obvious: he maintained his testimony of the BoM as way of claiming leadership for his own “Whitmerite LDS Church”.
I wouldn’t be so quick to judge him. Most of his neighbors thought him to be an honest man. He may simply have had some kind of benign mental illness. I would be very careful about calling him a liar – why would it have been awful to have a vision of Jesus in Heaven waiting to receive his children? Do you think Jesus is in Heaven waiting for his children? Doesn’t sound heretical to me except for the confirmation of the Book of Mormon.

As for his living in grave sin, it is doubtful he knew enough about Catholicism to be living in grave sin. He may have been a simple believer in Jesus. He didn’t deny the Trinity as the Trinity was the normal Mormon understanding of the Godhead when he was thrown out of the Mormon Church. Whitmer rejected a lot of the worst aspects of Mormonism like plural marriage and multiple Gods. I’d cut him some slack and pray that God have mercy on him. I sure am not willing to condemn him.
 
Just say no to drugs!!

Especially LDS 😃

That was Joseph Smith’s problem - he was on an LDS trip.🙂
 
Maybe you could try this…

Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon?
The Critics and Their Theories

By Louis C. Midgley

Louis C. Midgley is professor emeritus of political science at Brigham Young University
 
i cannot tell you how happy i am that you posted that link.😃

Now everyone can see from LDS sources just what was claimed. none of these “witnesses” are reliable and all are close associates of Joseph Smith. however, their common themes when viewed along with Joseph’s claims should show just what a preposterous hoax the BoM is.
 
For those who are interested, here is a good article on the translation of the Book of Mormon that I found. I agree with his conclusions:

farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=167

zerinus
Skousen assumes we can trust those who witnessed the translation. Since I believe Oliver Cowdrey was in on the fraud, I can’t trust anything he says about the method of translation. Most people didn’t see Oliver and Joseph working together. It’s plausible that Joseph could have done the head in the hat trick to impress people who happened to pop in on their work. When they left, he and Oliver probably just used the manuscript they were working from to create the Book of Mormon. I really doubt that Joseph was looking into a hat the whole time he was translating the Book of Mormon. It is interesting that Oliver and Joseph are very quiet when it comes to how the translation occurred.
 
i cannot tell you how happy i am that you posted that link.😃

Now everyone can see from LDS sources just what was claimed. none of these “witnesses” are reliable and all are close associates of Joseph Smith. however, their common themes when viewed along with Joseph’s claims should show just what a preposterous hoax the BoM is.
Thank you. I take that as a good omen that the Book of Mormon is true. Anything that you disagree with I will agree with, and anything that you agree with I will disagree with. If you go to the right I will turn to the left; and if you turn to the left I will go to the right. I think that is a safe course of action to follow for the salvation of one’s soul.

zerinus
 
We “test” every spirit, especially if they give a gospel different from what we have already received; We test it by reason, logic, history, archaeology, anthropology, linguistics, biology, etc…–we do NOT test it by FIF–thats “funny internal feeling” aka “burning in the breast”

Muhammed claimed Gabriel appeared to him in a visionary experience–and also claimed that he was taken up to heaven on a nighttime journey. The credentials of a prophet in character are manifest in just begining to accept the validity of the message.

BTW, Catholics do not have to consider all of Mormonism’s “revelations” to be human inventions–there might have actually been some “angelic” contact–but I guarantee, ther were NOT from heaven.
I agree… We never said that the BOM was not perhaps inspired. Just never specified from whom/what it may have been inspired.
 
Quoting from the article:
The climax came in 1976 when Cowdrey and his friends were examining some old manuscripts in an LDS church library. They came across a few pages from the Book of Mormon in handwriting no one had been able to identify. But before this the researchers had managed to track down some undisputed samples of Spalding’s handwriting at Oberlin College in Ohio, including a deed from January 1811 bearing his signature.
There, amid the quiet and rather dull surroundings of paper and bookshelves, the awesome truth dawned on them: These harmless-looking scraps of aging paper had the potential to shatter once and for all the myth of Joseph Smith the saint and prophet—a great, historic, American myth for which men and women had lived and died and suffered and killed; a myth that had pioneered part of the Wild West, built the state of Utah, and now ruled the hearts and lives and fortunes of millions round the world.
This extract from the Book of Mormon (“translated” from “golden plates” in 1828) was in the handwriting of Solomon Spalding (died 1816)! What the young men had stumbled on was part of the long-lost manuscript of Spalding’s second novel—crushing evidence of Smith’s plagiarism and deceit that had been preserved by the unsuspecting Mormons themselves.
The three men proceeded to write a book detailing the results of their research (Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon? Vision House Publishers, 1977). The LDS Church issued denials of the identification and prohibited any further examination of the relevant manuscript. But the detailed testimonies of two independent handwriting experts, William Kaye and Henry Silver, are photographically reproduced for all to see: the unquestioned Spalding documents and the supposed Book of Mormon extract are judged professionally to be definitely in the same hand (Walter Martin, The Maze of Mormonism, pp.62–64).
This has been debunked. Here’s a link from the Tanner web site:

utlm.org/newsletters/no39.htm#SPALDING

I actually suspect the Spalding theory is true, but the handwriting analysis did not support the assertion that Spalding’s handwriting is found in the Book of Mormon manuscript. The Tanners have been stubbornly opposed to the Spalding theory, but I think they are missing the boat even though they have generally been very good in exposing Mormonism as a fraud.
 
Thank you. I take that as a good omen that the Book of Mormon is true. Anything that you disagree with I will agree with, and anything that you agree with I will disagree with. If you go to the right I will turn to the left; and if you turn to the left I will go to the right. I think that is a safe course of action to follow for the salvation of one’s soul.

zerinus
don’t convert to catholicism!😃
 
I wouldn’t be so quick to judge him. Most of his neighbors thought him to be an honest man. He may simply have had some kind of benign mental illness. I would be very careful about calling him a liar – why would it have been awful to have a vision of Jesus in Heaven waiting to receive his children? Do you think Jesus is in Heaven waiting for his children? Doesn’t sound heretical to me except for the confirmation of the Book of Mormon.

As for his living in grave sin, it is doubtful he knew enough about Catholicism to be living in grave sin. He may have been a simple believer in Jesus. He didn’t deny the Trinity as the Trinity was the normal Mormon understanding of the Godhead when he was thrown out of the Mormon Church. Whitmer rejected a lot of the worst aspects of Mormonism like plural marriage and multiple Gods. I’d cut him some slack and pray that God have mercy on him. I sure am not willing to condemn him.
I think you misread me. I was “judging him” from the perspective of Utah LDS Church.

I was not, as a Catholic, judging his soul and his salvation. From the perspective of Catholicism, which is the fullness of the Truth, what he did was objectively sinful (affirming a false prophet), but we dont know what the conditions in which he did those things.
 
Does that mean you will? 🙂
Ignore zerinus, he has absolutely no idea of what he is talking about. If Joe Smith himself told zerinus that the whole LDS thing was just a joke that got out of hand, he(zerinus) would not believe him. It IS a joke, but zerinus is a TBM, so that makes it OK.:rolleyes:
 
Quoting from the article:

This has been debunked. Here’s a link from the Tanner web site:

utlm.org/newsletters/no39.htm#SPALDING

I actually suspect the Spalding theory is true, but the handwriting analysis did not support the assertion that Spalding’s handwriting is found in the Book of Mormon manuscript. The Tanners have been stubbornly opposed to the Spalding theory, but I think they are missing the boat even though they have generally been very good in exposing Mormonism as a fraud.
Perhaps–but not lets forget high in the heirarchy Momon’s paid substantial money to forger (and later murderer) Mark Hoffman for his bogus manuscripts so they could hide them–I suspect a LOT of the more educated Mormon heirarchy know their religion cannot withstand critical historical query–but they have way too much invested in maintaining the system
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top