LDS: There will be an opportunity for those with same sex attraction to marry opposite sex in Heaven?

[twopekinguys]

There you go, get married in the next life…

Like St. Fr. Damian, the priest who worked among the lepers in Hawaii, was finally married in the Mormon church, following his baptism after he was dead and I believe I read he is now married to another who suffered the same plight being a consecrated soul to God, an imagined Sr Maria…

St. Sr. Faustina is now married in heaven.

The Mormons rejoiced so many years back when they got hold of ‘a treasure trove’ of sacramental records going back 1,000 years of consecrated priests and religious.

Guess they are all getting married now, having sex in heaven, and seeing sex a greater satisfaction that Christ could ever fulfill.

Carnal knowledge and pleasure is the eternal goal, not union with God.

Which all of these “baptisms”, and “sealings” are obviously being done by people who have no regard for people of other faiths, and are also violating their ow rules on who can do this and when.

I wonder where they got family consent for this?

 

[SteveVH]

I see no contradiction. The quote given in the OP states-"Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next.

You see no contradiction? Read the words of Christ very carefully: “When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.” (Mark 12:25)

How in the world does that not contradict marriage “in the next” life?

It says nothing about Heaven or getting married in Heaven. As you already noted, Latter-day Saints believe that no one will enter into marriage in Heaven. What the quote does say is that these people (in addition to all that did not have that opportunity in this life) will have the opportunity to marry “in the next” [life]. For a Latter-day Saint reader (the target audience of this new website), this is naturally understood to refer to the Spirit World, i.e. the intermediary place after death, prior to the Resurrection, prior to going to Heaven.

Okay. Now my head is spinning. What is the purpose of the “Spirit World”? As you are aware, Catholics also believe in a place other than heaven or hell, however I don’t believe you are referring to purgatory. What does one do in the Spirit World and what determines one’s entry into heaven?

 

[Janderich]

You see no contradiction? Read the words of Christ very carefully: "When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." (Mark 12:25)

How in the world does that not contradict marriage “in the next” life?

This scripture in Mark is widely misundersthood. However, a non-LDS Biblical scholar rightly explains it. He says:

The case put forward by the Sadducees is particularly extreme. Not only had six brothers attempted and failed to impregnate the woman in question, but she had also outlived them all and was single when she died. It is perhaps this last fact which prompts the question: Whose spouse will she be in the resurrection?..Jesus stresses that in the age to come people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Notice what Jesus does not say. He does not say there will be no marriage in the age to come. The use of the terms “γαμουσιν” (gamousin) and “γαμιζονται” (gamizontai) is important, for these terms refer to the gender-specific roles played in early Jewish society by the man and the woman in the process of getting married. The men, being the initiators of the process in such a strongly patriarchal culture, “marry,” while the women are “given in marriage” by their father or another older family member. Thus Mark has Jesus saying that no new marriages will be initiated in the eschatological [resurrection] state. This is surely not the same as claiming that all existing marriages will disappear in the eschatological state.” (Ben Witherington III, The Gospel of Mark: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary, 328)

 

[kimg901]

This scripture in Mark is widely misundersthood. However, a non-LDS Biblical scholar rightly explains it. He says:

How could it be misunderstood? It explains it completely. I believe it was a parable to say who would be married and I think it says none.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Marriage doesn’t disappear in heaven. The sacrament of marriage, like all sacraments, is fulfilled in heaven. Marriage is outdone. Those in heaven are united to Jesus, as the family of God. Family here, prefigures the heavenly familial relationship, which is perfected. Be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. God’s love is perfect, and so our love in heaven is perfected as well, in and through, Jesus Christ.

There isn’t a need for marriage in heaven.

 

[zaffiroborant]

How could it be misunderstood? It explains it completely. I believe it was a parable to say who would be married and I think it says none.

Just like the biblical stories of married angels, none.

 

[LivingWaters7]

You see no contradiction? Read the words of Christ very carefully: "When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." (Mark 12:25)

How in the world does that not contradict marriage “in the next” life?

You seem to be conflating too different things that I am referring to. In your post, the portion of it that I was responding to was when you said:

**"“For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.” (Mark 12:25)

This verse is usually argued by Mormon apologists as meaning that no one will enter into marriage in heaven, which on its face contradicts the position you quoted,"**

So if I am reading that specific portion of your post correctly (I could be wrong), you stated that the “Mormon apologists” interpretation of that verse contradicts the position quoted in the OP (i.e. that those that did not have the opportunity to marry in this life will have that opportunity in the next life). Isn’t that what you stated? If so, my response was that no, there is no contradiction between the “Mormon apologist” interpretation of that verse, and the position quoted in the OP, because Latter-day Saints do not believe that people get married in Heaven. As I stated, the “next life” is referring to the Spirit World (remember this is a LDS website we are talking about), which is the waiting place prior to the Resurrection, before Heaven.

As far as the verse in question, Latter-day Saints clearly agree with what is stated by Christ in that verse (I do not need to read it very carefully, I can read quite well). We completely agree that when the dead rise, they will not marry nor be given in marriage. We would agree with what the Biblical scholar quoted in Janderich’s post here states about that passage.

Okay. Now my head is spinning.

Why? I was clearly stating how Latter-day Saints understand what the website in question, a Latter-day Saint website, is talking about, and why your post stating that there was a contradiction between the Mormon apologist interpretation of a verse and the OP quote from that website, was incorrect (unless I grossly misunderstood it, which there is a possibility of).

What is the purpose of the “Spirit World”? As you are aware, Catholics also believe in a place other than heaven or hell, however I don’t believe you are referring to purgatory. What does one do in the Spirit World and what determines one’s entry into heaven?

No, I am not referring to purgatory, since I am talking about Latter-day Saint belief, not Catholic belief. The Spirit World is where we go when we die. It is a waiting place essentially, where we wait prior to the Resurrection. It is akin to the ancient concept of “Hades”, “Sheol”, “Bosom of Abraham”, etc. The Spirit World is divided into Paradise, and Prison. Those in Paradise have accepted the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those in Prison have not, and, through our belief in proxy saving ordinances for the deceased, we believe that those that did not have the opportunity to accept the fulness of Truth will have that opportunity in the next life, and be able to accept saving ordinances offered to them by the living faithful, made possible by God’s infinite mercy and the atonement of Jesus Christ.

After the Resurrection, we will be judged again (the Final Judgment), and will go to one of the various degrees of Heaven, or Outer Darkness. The highest degree of Heaven, the Celestial Kingdom, is where God dwells eternally. Those that have had faith in Jesus Christ, repented of their sins, were baptized by God’s authority, received the Holy Ghost, and endured, will enter into the eternal presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. To receive the highest blessings God desires to offer us, i.e. exaltation (becoming like Him, gods), we enter into further covenants with God, such as eternal marriage, the priesthood for men, being washed, anointed, and receiving an Endowment in the Lord’s temple, etc.

 

[KathleenGee]

Janderich…

The context is history…how the apostles laid down the foundation of the Church.

The Church began at Pentecost not with the Latter Day Saints.

The Mormon religion has made past teachings that St. John the Evangelist never died and was somehow seen. or some how, it was contrived he was walking the earth for some time.

St. John the Evagelist was not married and cared for Christ’s mother for the rest of her life.

So who is the lucky woman who is now to the celibate St. John married by your religion’s standards?

Are all the virgins who were martyred because they refused men, who endured torture and death…is the Mormon church now going against their dying wishes, and married now in your heaven?

Jesus said each day is full of its own worries, and to not worry about tomorrow.

God is the author of life, not man and our self will. He decides the number of days – with our cooperation. An alcoholic willfully shortens his life through the abuse of his body and not having strength of will to overcome his addiction through God 's help.

But for people who do not die untimely deaths, as well as those who did die too soon, there are enough chances every day, 24 hours a day to choose God, to come to know, love and serve Him.

Believer and those who chose to remain celibate for the Kingdom, affirm Christ’s words when He said there were those made for the Gospel. And this is what happened to the apostles…with the exception of St. John, they let go of all carnal desires and were martyred for Him. John lived a contemplative life in deep prayer in union with God.

There are so many consecrated souls who have witnessed the faith and love they have received from the Lord that is documented and reflected upon this very day. They have not give birth to the flesh, but to faith in souls.

It is our faith, cooperation with the will of God through each day to the end of our lives that saves us, not sex.

Catholicism and Mormonism are going in opposite directions.

 

[SteveVH]

This scripture in Mark is widely misundersthood. However, a non-LDS Biblical scholar rightly explains it. He says:

I must admit that I am not familiar with Ben Witherington other than to know that he is an Evangelical theologian. Nevertheless, Mr. Witherington is not agreeing with the LDS postition that one can marry in the “next life”. He is simply saying that it does not necessarily mean that existing marriges will disappear after the resurrection. As Rebecca so correctly pointed out, we do not believe marriage will disappear either, but rather that it will be fulfilled in the wedding feast of the Lamb.

 

[SteveVH]

You seem to be conflating too different things that I am referring to. In your post, the portion of it that I was responding to was when you said:

**"“For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.” (Mark 12:25)

This verse is usually argued by Mormon apologists as meaning that no one will enter into marriage in heaven, which on its face contradicts the position you quoted**,"

So if I am reading that specific portion of your post correctly (I could be wrong), you stated that the “Mormon apologists” interpretation of that verse contradicts the position quoted in the OP (i.e. that those that did not have the opportunity to marry in this life will have that opportunity in the next life). Isn’t that what you stated? If so, my response was that no, there is no contradiction between the “Mormon apologist” interpretation of that verse, and the position quoted in the OP, because Latter-day Saints do not believe that people get married in Heaven. As I stated, the “next life” is referring to the Spirit World (remember this is a LDS website we are talking about), which is the waiting place prior to the Resurrection, before Heaven.

As far as the verse in question, Latter-day Saints clearly agree with what is stated by Christ in that verse (I do not need to read it very carefully, I can read quite well). We completely agree that when the dead rise, they will not marry nor be given in marriage. We would agree with what the Biblical scholar quoted in Janderich’s post here states about that passage.

Why? I was clearly stating how Latter-day Saints understand what the website in question, a Latter-day Saint website, is talking about, and why your post stating that there was a contradiction between the Mormon apologist interpretation of a verse and the OP quote from that website, was incorrect (unless I grossly misunderstood it, which there is a possibility of).

No, I am not referring to purgatory, since I am talking about Latter-day Saint belief, not Catholic belief. The Spirit World is where we go when we die. It is a waiting place essentially, where we wait prior to the Resurrection. It is akin to the ancient concept of “Hades”, “Sheol”, “Bosom of Abraham”, etc. The Spirit World is divided into Paradise, and Prison. Those in Paradise have accepted the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those in Prison have not, and, through our belief in proxy saving ordinances for the deceased, we believe that those that did not have the opportunity to accept the fulness of Truth will have that opportunity in the next life, and be able to accept saving ordinances offered to them by the living faithful, made possible by God’s infinite mercy and the atonement of Jesus Christ.

After the Resurrection, we will be judged again (the Final Judgment), and will go to one of the various degrees of Heaven, or Outer Darkness. The highest degree of Heaven, the Celestial Kingdom, is where God dwells eternally. Those that have had faith in Jesus Christ, repented of their sins, were baptized by God’s authority, received the Holy Ghost, and endured, will enter into the eternal presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. To receive the highest blessings God desires to offer us, i.e. exaltation (becoming like Him, gods), we enter into further covenants with God, such as eternal marriage, the priesthood for men, being washed, anointed, and receiving an Endowment in the Lord’s temple, etc.

Thanks for you answer. I have to admit that the “Spirit World” is an LDS doctrine of which I was not aware. That is what was throwing me. As for your explanation, we will just have to disagree concerning our eternal destiny and how we reach it. As you are probably aware, the Catholic position holds that we are judged according to what we have done in this life; no second chances. The only “stop-over”, if you will, is purgatory, where we are purified and prepared for entrance into heaven.

 

[lax16]

Yes, I can’t see what point Mormons have to this life, when there are so many do overs in the next. Just a bunch of fish in a fish bowl, swimming around…oh I died, now someone will live for me via proxy.

Rebecca - I hate to ask this, but can that be why Utah leads the nation in teen male suicides?
I can’t understand why these kids are resorting to this (and I am not saying that they are all Mormon) but something seems to be giving them the idea that they will maybe get another chance in the next life perhaps??? A do-over?

It is a terribly sensitive and upsetting subject and I am by no means pointing fingers - I would love some insight to this though.

 

[x1980x]

The LDS believe that marriages are “sealed for time and eternity”, meaning that they persist after death. If someone in the LDS remarries following the death of his or her spouse, this would essentially allow polygamy after death (though polygamy is no longer allowed before death).
…

My understanding as a non-LDS is that the LDS church (that is headquartered in Salt Lake City) at one time practiced polygamy in this life. In the late 1800’s, the church stated that God told them to stop for the present time. The LDS church affirms polygamy as accepted by God and not sinful if done at a time and place where God permits it. So polygamous marriages done in Utah in the 1860’s were fine and didn’t need to be repented of, but no new polygamous marriages can exist on Earth until and unless God tells the church that it’s ok again. If a woman who was eternally married to her husband dies, the husband may marry again eternally on this Earth and essentially be polygamously married in eternity, but this is permitted because he has only one wife alive on Earth today.

 

[lax16]

Thanks for you answer. I have to admit that the “Spirit World” is an LDS doctrine of which I was not aware. That is what was throwing me. As for your explanation, we will just have to disagree concerning our eternal destiny and how we reach it. As you are probably aware, the Catholic position holds that we are judged according to what we have done in this life; no second chances. The only “stop-over”, if you will, is purgatory, where we are purified and prepared for entrance into heaven.

SteveVH - You are correct in saying that it is important to understand the LDS view of the spirit world in order to follow LDS thinking.

I read a very interesting article in Liahona magazine (official LDS publication) on the topic of the spirit world and it was a jaw dropper. I cannot successfully link it but I suggest reading it. I googled Liahona article on the spirit world and it came up. (It is called The Spirit World: Our Next Home or something close to that).

It has absolutely changed my view on everything Mormon. They have such a totally different idea of how things will be in the next life that it really affects the way they live this one. This is why they think soooo differently than non-Mormons on most topics.

This thread should actually be about the LDS view of the spirit world and how it relates to “do overs” in the next life, such as marriage for those with SSA.

 

[lax16]

Personally, I see this as a way of testing the waters to see what a doctrinal change might do to the membership.

Mormons came out very strongly against prop 8 in California, and didn’t fair well in the arena of public opinion. Rightly or wrongly.

Image is a very, very big concern in mormonism. They care very much about public opinion in matters like this. Bad publicity cuts into their possible number of conversions through their missionary programs.

With that being said, I think we are going to see either a very slow shift in doctrine from the mormons, or it is going to be a “revelation” announced similar to the lifting of the ban on blacks and the priesthood.

I compare this to the ban on blacks because that revelation happened to coincide with alot of public pressure. Many schools were refusing to play BYU in sports because of their policies, and suddenly, or coincidentally, there was a revelation.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Yes, the former LDS historian flew up to San Francisco to show his support to the gay community after the Prop 8 situation and was photographed with a group of people who favored gay marriage.

It will be very interesting to see how they handle this in the future - you are so right.

Supposedly, some people blame Mormon bias against gays for the high suicide rate here in Utah. The suicides here are getting out of control and I am wondering if this is also forcing the issue.

The LDS will have a hard time backpeddling on this one due to the Proclamation of the Family that hangs on the walls of the devout - it clearly states that marriage is between a man and a woman. I am quite sure this proclamation was/is considered to be a great revelation from their prophet.

 

[KathleenGee]

‘Spirit World’ vs the ordinary teachings as well as the extraordinary about heaven in the Church are two different concepts and the former is too much sounding in the gnostic world. It implies darkness.

 

[lax16]

I don’t see that they are saying anything new. Mormons have taught before that a single person who never marries will have the opportunity to marry in the next life.

What has changed is the LDS approach to same sex attraction. There are people I know who were sent to camps and organizations that were meant to “get the gay out”. Same sex attraction was viewed as a psychological sickness, that could be cured.

I also know people who were encouraged to marry anyway, the idea being that over time their temporary attraction to the same sex would fade away.

As you can imagine, the stories coming from these experiences aren’t positive.

Now they’re telling people to not get married, but to live as a single person. This is so contrary to LDS culture, that I can’t imagine that anyone would stay LDS under these circumstances.

The Mormon God is fickle.

Rebecca - You are right, this is nothing new. For those of us who had no idea about the LDS view of the spirit world it all makes more sense now.

Yes, I think they are moving away from encouraging people with SSA into marriage with a member of the opposite sex to this idea of a single life here on this earth. I think those of us living here in Utah have witnessed the former course of action quite a bit…at least we have…and have wondered about it…

If I were LDS, I would be thoroughly confused about what to believe. I would have to check to see what today’s list of beliefs are everyday.

 

[lax16]

‘Spirit World’ vs the ordinary teachings as well as the extraordinary about heaven in the Church are two different concepts and the former is too much sounding in the gnostic world. It implies darkness.

Hi KathleenGee - The LDS teachings of the Spirit World are unlike anything I have ever heard/read about in any other belief system.

How is it like the gnostic belief?

ps - how have you been?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca - I hate to ask this, but can that be why Utah leads the nation in teen male suicides?
I can’t understand why these kids are resorting to this (and I am not saying that they are all Mormon) but something seems to be giving them the idea that they will maybe get another chance in the next life perhaps??? A do-over?

It is a terribly sensitive and upsetting subject and I am by no means pointing fingers - I would love some insight to this though.

When a close family member committed suicide, about 3 months after his return from a mission, it was clear he had no hope. This is not abnormal for suicides. At the time some people (LDS) made comments that he would never be in heaven with God because of his actions. I have heard Catholics say the same thing. But that has never been what I believe.

A friend of mine calls depressions a plague. It effects everyone. Everyone I know is connected to at least one suicide. It is devastating.

In the Mormon way of teaching and seeing things, my own personal opinion is that hope cannot be found. They are taught to be too self reliant. Believing that it is up to them to get to point “A” before God will step in and “bless” them. As far as I know, they don’t believe there is a do over for my relative. He was already baptized a Mormon, had been through their temple. All bets are off once you’ve done both of those things.

It is a “health and wealth” gospel that they preach. If your life is going well and you have good health, it is because you are pleasing God. If your life sucks, the endless struggles don’t go away, you’re broke, you have same sex attraction that you can’t “get out”. Well, it is because God has left the building and you better figure out why and get yourself straightened out so God will give you some “blessings”. The false Mormon God is a blessing vending machine.

 

[lax16]

When a close family member committed suicide, about 3 months after his return from a mission, it was clear he had no hope. This is not abnormal for suicides. At the time some people (LDS) made comments that he would never be in heaven with God because of his actions. I have heard Catholics say the same thing. But that has never been what I believe.

So sorry to hear of your loss.

A friend of mine calls depressions a plague. It effects everyone. Everyone I know is connected to at least one suicide. It is devastating.

Yes. But the strange thing is I only knew of one adult who committed suicide (he was addicted to drugs as far as I know) and in the 6 years we have lived here have heard of maybe 10. And many of them are young people.
Honestly, I was never connected to a suicide until very recently. A man in California recently took his own life.

In the Mormon way of teaching and seeing things, my own personal opinion is that hope cannot be found. They are taught to be too self reliant. Believing that it is up to them to get to point “A” before God will step in and “bless” them. As far as I know, they don’t believe there is a do over for my relative. He was already baptized a Mormon, had been through their temple. All bets are off once you’ve done both of those things.

Okay. I wonder what they are saying these days because I can tell you, that just since school started this August, there have been several teen suicides in Utah county.
I guess the Trib did an article in yesterday’s paper on the problem but I have not yet read it.

It is a “health and wealth” gospel that they preach. If your life is going well and you have good health, it is because you are pleasing God. If your life sucks, the endless struggles don’t go away, you’re broke, you have same sex attraction that you can’t “get out”. Well, it is because God has left the building and you better figure out why and get yourself straightened out so God will give you some “blessings”. The false Mormon God is a blessing vending machine.

Interesting. I know we had some issues with our Mormon friends years ago (who are now all divorced) because they didn’t understand how we had blessings in our family (success, nice kids etc) and were not Mormon. They always asked us why we would live such a “conservative lifestyle” if no one was forcing us to do so.
I never knew how to answer them. If only I had the right words to say back then…

Why do the LDS have this view of God and his distribution of blessings (or not)?

Thanks for your insight. Honestly, we are thinking of moving out of state due to the large number of suicides that we hear about every few weeks or so (and we are not reading about them, it is people we know sharing the info).

 

[NeuroTypical]

Rebecca - I hate to ask this, but can that be why Utah leads the nation in teen male suicides?

Could I ask where you heard that statistic? My google-fu is failing me, and this is the only thing I can find:

Dr. D. Richard Martini, director of psychiatry and behavioral health at Primary Children’s Medical Center, reported that adolescent suicide rates in Utah are higher than the national average, with the number climbing since 2010.

Source - Deseret News Dec 6, 2012

At the time some people (LDS) made comments that he would never be in heaven with God because of his actions. I have heard Catholics say the same thing. But that has never been what I believe.

I’ve watched Christians of all stripes struggle with this issue, and try to predict or cast judgement on people who have taken their own lives.

I force myself to be content that righteous and perfect judgement is in God’s hands, and I believe there is hope for such souls.