LDS transparency: J Smith marriage to 14 yr old

[Stephen168]

I can’t hold the Mormons subject to the teachings of Catholicism any more than I can hold Catholics subject to the teachings of Mormonism.

Mormons not only claim to be Christian they claim to have restored the Church of Jesus Christ; therefore we can hold them to the teachings of Christ. Polygamy and adultry were never taught by Christ.

 

[schaeffer]

Mormons not only claim to be Christian they claim to have restored the Church of Jesus Christ; therefore we can hold them to the teachings of Christ. Polygamy and adultry were never taught by Christ.

I am not a Christian, so that is definitely something that you would have to address amongst yourselves.

 

[Janderich]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Do you believe God asks a person to act contrary to his commandments.

What a world we live in.

Adultery was a concern of Joseph’s. In fact he asked God and received the following revelation:

God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things the promises. Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it. Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written; Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. (D&C 132:34-36)

Do you not see that what God commands is right?

As I said before, this hinges on weather or not Joseph received revelation from God. If he did then your animosity is misplaced and all of your reasoning will not change the fact that it came from God. You do not believe it came from God, I do.

 

[Janderich]

Mormons not only claim to be Christian they claim to have restored the Church of Jesus Christ; therefore we can hold them to the teachings of Christ. Polygamy and adultry were never taught by Christ.

Stephen, How does the Catholic Church reconcile Abraham’s polygamy as given in the Bible?

Note: Serious question

 

[RebeccaJ]

Adultery was a concern of Joseph’s. In fact he asked God and received the following revelation: Do you not see that what God commands is right?

As I said before, this hinges on weather or not Joseph received revelation from God. If he did then your animosity is misplaced and all of your reasoning will not change the fact that it came from God. You do not believe it came from God, I do.

I have no animosity.

I don’t follow the teachings of Smith, who made things up, like God gave Hagar to Abraham. That idea doesn’t even make sense if you actually read the story of Abraham and what happened there.

 

[glendab]

Hello Rebecca.

If the predator and prey can’t be seen in this account, then I have nothing more to add.

Thank you for daring to tell the Truth here. You are 100% accurate.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Schaeffer.

Again, I can only repeat, this does not prove anything about the validity of the revelations to Smith.

There are multitudes of similar stories in many faiths. Many were called to do things they did not want to and saw no good coming from it, or saw nothing but misery for them in following the dictates of their faith, or the request of their parent, all to gain spiritual/eternal reward.

Indeed some people say that such experiences are actually PROOF of the validity of their faith.

All you’ve offered so far has been several straw men in a row. Please stop.

It is obvious the girl didn’t want to have sex with J. Smith but she agreed to submit to his perverse wishes because she had been taught that this act would gain actual blessings for herself and her family. Seen from the outside this is a heinous crime against both her and her family. It cannot be anything less. The ultimate lie: “have sex with me and you’ll get to Heaven,” and the only one exalted by all this seduction and ruin is the devil. That is my opinion and it isn’t going to change.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Schaeffer.

Again, I can only repeat, this does not prove anything about the validity of the revelations to Smith…Indeed some people say that such experiences are actually PROOF of the validity of their faith.

And even though it is a straw man, I will say this: based upon such reasoning, any person who claims a revelation from God or to have had a vision is qualified to start his or her own religion and the rest of us have to shut up about all they do while acting upon their own religious inclinations. Correct? If it is valid to them then we have to respect that and not say a word? Right?

Glenda

 

[Denise1957]

There may not be an answer to this question, but what I’d like to know is this: did the 14 year-old girl actually want to marry Joseph Smith? Did she have a choice in the matter?

 

[glendab]

Hello Janderich.

Adultery was a concern of Joseph’s. In fact he asked God and received the following revelation: Do you not see that what God commands is right?

As I said before, this hinges on weather or not Joseph received revelation from God. If he did then your animosity is misplaced and all of your reasoning will not change the fact that it came from God. You do not believe it came from God, I do.

I’ll say something that struck me about Mormonism way back when I was a teen and was talking about this with friends and the whole thing seemed a house of cards - Joseph Smith never worked any miracles and there never were any miracles attributed to him after his death. All those who actually are Saints and Prophets work miracles. They are actual signs given by God so us simple little sheep won’t be deceived into following false prophets and even after a few miracles, some actual Saints have a hard time with others. If Mr. Smith really was acting as God had told him to, he would have raised the dead, or healed cripples or restored sight to the blind. Nothing of the sort ever happened. What does that prove?

Glenda

 

[schaeffer]

Hello Schaeffer.
All you’ve offered so far has been several straw men in a row. Please stop.

It is obvious the girl didn’t want to have sex with J. Smith but she agreed to submit to his perverse wished because she had been taught that this act would gain actual blessings for herself and her family. Seen from the outside this is a heinous crime against both her and her family. It cannot be anything less. The ultimate lie: “have sex with me and you’ll get to Heaven,” and the only one exalted by all this seduction and ruin is the devil. That is my opinion and it isn’t going to change.

Glenda

No straw men. I am not arguing for the validity of Mormonism. I am not a Mormon.

Nor am I asking anyone to approve of bad behavior, but truth is people do all sorts of horrible things, sometimes in the name of faith, and sometimes in spite of the faith they claim to hold.

Those things don’t automatically invalidate the teachings of the faith.

I experienced sexual abuse and in no way approve or condone it. Does the situation look suspect to me? Yes it does and I would not give my daughter into such a situation.

There are many stories in the Bible I likewise find reprehensible and would not give my daughter into, yet they apparently do not invalidate the teachings of Bible based faiths.

My personal feelings on the matter do not validate or invalidate whether or not someone is a prophet. That is between the people of the faith and their God.

 

[iepuras]

Breaking this question down to this was illuminating for me. The historical record is clear enough to show Joseph Smith did not have a great deal of sex as a product of his teachings on polygamy. If polygamy was instituted by the man Joseph Smith it seems obvious to me that it would be initiated for sex AND obvious that the historical record evidence much more sex than we can discern. If, as I suggest, the historical record witnesses against sex as motive, the alternative explanation (from God) becomes much more likely. And “from God” aligns very well with the historical records we have.
Charity, TOm

LDS scriptures, both the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine & Covenants, state that the purpose of polygamy is to raise righteous seed (children). How did this happen in the 19th century without sex? Today, children can come into existence without sex but it is not the norm and prohibitively expensive for most people.

While I do agree that some of Smith’s marriages could have been primarily for power, sex was still a part of it.

Sorry, but the default assumption of marriage is sex between husband and wife.

So it was revealed to Smith that polygamy is commanded by God for the express purpose of having children. And than the LDS church argues that Joseph Smith’s polygamous marriages weren’t all about sex and that many of them were sexless. Don’t you see how ridiculous that sounds?

 

[iepuras]

Hello Janderich.

I’ll say something that struck me about Mormonism way back when I was a teen and was talking about this with friends and the whole thing seemed a house of cards - Joseph Smith never worked any miracles and there never were any miracles attributed to him after his death. All those who actually are Saints and Prophets work miracles. They are actual signs given by God so us simple little sheep won’t be deceived into following false prophets and even after a few miracles, some actual Saints have a hard time with others. If Mr. Smith really was acting as God had told him to, he would have raised the dead, or healed cripples or restored sight to the blind. Nothing of the sort ever happened. What does that prove?

Glenda

Many Mormons have argued that the ‘translation’ of the Book of Mormon was a miracle and evidence that Smith was a prophet. My former stake president made this argument to me when he showed up at my front door unannounced after I stopped attending the LDS church.

 

[schaeffer]

Hello Schaeffer.

And even though it is a straw man, I will say this: based upon such reasoning, any person who claims a revelation from God or to have had a vision is qualified to start his or her own religion and the rest of us have to shut up about all they do while acting upon their own religious inclinations. Correct? If it is valid to them then we have to respect that and not say a word? Right?

Glenda

I never suggested anyone has to shut up.

Anyone can claim revelation from God and start a religion. But clearly that doesn’t mean everyone has to shut up nor let them do as they please. I don’t approve of the behavior of Smith, or many many other people who call themselves religious leaders. If they commit a crime they need to be held accountable.

And yet, sadly, religious people do commit crimes and engage in horrible behavior, and sadly many even use their position in the faith as a means to victimize others. It’s wrong, and no one should shut up.

I cannot know the mind and hearts of Smith, the parents, or the girl herself, and how much they were acting out of true faith, however misguided.

I don’t believe that anywhere in this discussion have I told anyone to shut up or condone behavior they find sinful or reprehensible.

 

[kimg901]

Stephen, How does the Catholic Church reconcile Abraham’s polygamy as given in the Bible?

Note: Serious question

It was Sarah that told Abraham to take Hagar, not God.

 

[Janderich]

Hello Janderich.

I’ll say something that struck me about Mormonism way back when I was a teen and was talking about this with friends and the whole thing seemed a house of cards - Joseph Smith never worked any miracles and there never were any miracles attributed to him after his death. All those who actually are Saints and Prophets work miracles. They are actual signs given by God so us simple little sheep won’t be deceived into following false prophets and even after a few miracles, some actual Saints have a hard time with others. If Mr. Smith really was acting as God had told him to, he would have raised the dead, or healed cripples or restored sight to the blind. Nothing of the sort ever happened. What does that prove?

Glenda

Yes there were. The first miracle we know of was the casting out of a devil of a man possessed. Joseph also healed a person with a crippled arm and a whole group of saints sick and dying on the banks of the Mississippi.

 

[kimg901]

To say that Mormonism or any other religion is the true religion of Christ is to say Christ was a cruel man that lead His followers to pointless deaths (or all those who died in the name of Christ) and the rest of us to hell because He left His Church in a state of apostacy. And what does that say about God the Father? He let His own Son die for what?

 

[kimg901]

Yes there were. The first miracle we know of was the casting out of a devil of a man possessed. Joseph also healed a person with a crippled arm and a whole group of saints sick and dying on the banks of the Mississippi.

And to this day we still have people claiming they heal the sick and crippled and they take in a lot of money through their churches by claiming they do. Do you have any verifiable proof that smith did such things?

 

[zaffiroborant]

I’m neither LDS or Catholic, but based on what I know (I am not a scholar on any of this)…

It was not unusual at that time for girls to marry at 14. It was not unusual for people to marry for reasons other than romantic love. Many marriages were arranged for financial, cultural or religious reasons.

Many religions have some very specific teachings that don’t make much sense and are even seen as wacky by people who don’t share the faith.

Many religions, perhaps most, at some time have been hunted down, chased, persecuted and reviled by others and the government has gotten involved in the persecution.

Many religions have practiced and encouraged polygamy, again, for financial, cultural and religious purposes.

While I have heard some very sad stories of abuse and misery among Mormons, I have likewise heard some very sad stories of abuse and misery among people of many religions.

Considering that the average age for a first marriage for women during the 1800’s was 20 to 22 marrying at the age of 14 would be unusual. Particularly since on average girls didn’t begin menarche until age sixteen. The reason for marriage had begun the shift in the west from the pragmatic to the romantic as early as the 17th century. I have no idea how many people married for love but in the autobiographical works I’ve read by women from the time period they chose their husband from those men who presented. themselves.

 

[Janderich]

And to this day we still have people claiming they heal the sick and crippled and they take in a lot of money through their churches by claiming they do. Do you have any verifiable proof that smith did such things?

Just writings from witnesses who were there. Of course this is the same proof you have of the miracles that Christ performed.