LDS transparency: J Smith marriage to 14 yr old

[iepuras]

I’m just curious. Would it make a difference to you if she did want to?

Do you really think a 14 year old girl has the maturity to make the decision to marry a man in his 30’s? Given the fact that Helen Mar Kimball’s father was pressuring her to agree to marry Smith (eternal salvation for the whole family was on the line), I question her capacity to make a sound decision.

Would you let your 14 year old daughter marry a man in his 30’s if that is what she wanted? If not, why not?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Average age and an acceptable age to get married are two separate things. It was not unheard of for a woman go get married at 14 in Illinois in 1840. As you indicate it would be unheard of for a man to marry at that age because he could not provide for the wife. Joseph was not seeking to justify sexual gratification by marrying this 14 year-old or any of the others. But on this one count, it was the girls father that wanted the marriage as it was important to him to have his family connected to the prophet.

A 14 year old is not a woman, she is an adolescent.

So, you’re saying Helen’s father pushed her on Joseph Smith to make a power connection? You don’t think this power connection does anything for Joseph Smith? Do you think God views girls and women to be used for power plays?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I suppose any man of God is in it for the power. Such as Moses, Elijah (look mom, I got a chariot of fire), Elisha. What other possible reason would anyone become a prophet of God except for power?

Joseph Smith wasn’t a prophet of God. Why would anyone claim to be something they aren’t?

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s incredible the lengths people will go to to cement their absolute position that they are right. How many straws will you grasp at before you realize that it’s just dead grass? Since no man “turned their daughters and wives” to him, I doubt that he ever exercised that “power.” And historical records that shows a doctor performing abortions means what?

Of course they did. Helen Mar Kimball shows that is exactly what happened. Even she describes the event as her own father putting his only ewe lamb on an altar.

A Dr. performing abortions means women were getting abortions.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is a rough generalization which assumes all polygamy is the same everywhere and in any period of history where it was practiced and this is not true. There are situations where the distribution of men and women have not always been equal. Though the population between men and women are fairly equal today, there is no reason to assume that one must dip into the kiddy pool to make up the difference. The age distribution of Joseph’s wives certainly indicated that older women can fill this gap. Over 15% of his wives were over 40 and over 50% of his wives where in his age group.

While 21% of Joseph’s wives were under 18, only 1 was under 16 and that one, the marriage was not broached by Joseph. He did not seek the marriage. And to top that off, there is no evidence that they ever consummated the marriage afterwards. There is no evidence of predator activity on Joseph’s part. All you have is conjecture based on the fact that he married a 14 year-old and that’s it.

All the evidence I have indicates that none of the polygamous marriages were for sex. I can see no other reason that he did it except for the reason he said he did it for.

I’m sorry you are so blind. Let spell it out for you in all caps.

A MARRIED MAN IN HIS THIRTIES WHO CHASES AFTER, ACCEPTS FAVORS FROM ANOTHER ADULT, IN THE FORM OF A GIRL IS A SEXUAL PREDATOR.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is a rough generalization which assumes all polygamy is the same everywhere and in any period of history where it was practiced and this is not true. There are situations where the distribution of men and women have not always been equal. Though the population between men and women are fairly equal today, there is no reason to assume that one must dip into the kiddy pool to make up the difference. The age distribution of Joseph’s wives certainly indicated that older women can fill this gap. Over 15% of his wives were over 40 and over 50% of his wives where in his age group.

While 21% of Joseph’s wives were under 18, only 1 was under 16 and that one, the marriage was not broached by Joseph. He did not seek the marriage. And to top that off, there is no evidence that they ever consummated the marriage afterwards. There is no evidence of predator activity on Joseph’s part. All you have is conjecture based on the fact that he married a 14 year-old and that’s it.

All the evidence I have indicates that none of the polygamous marriages were for sex. I can see no other reason that he did it except for the reason he said he did it for.

Let’s be clear, a married man who seeks out a girl less than half his age, who makes promises to her of eternal salvation, in return for an intimate relationship, is a sexual predator. Period. End of story. All you can do is try to explain away what actually happened, and try to sugarcoat it. It is what it is. Creepy as it can get.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Would you let your 14 year old daughter marry a man in his 30’s if that is what she wanted? If not, why not?

A similar question was asked of fathers on a LDS forum, along the lines of would you turn your 14 year old daughter over to Joseph Smith to marry. Some responders said without question, they would. There’s something really wrong with some men of the LDS faith.

 

[CarolNoel]

A similar question was asked of fathers on a LDS forum, along the lines of would you turn your 14 year old daughter over to Joseph Smith to marry. Some responders said without question, they would. There’s something really wrong with some men of the LDS faith.

Oh My Goodness! That is disgusting.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Average age and an acceptable age to get married are two separate things. It was not unheard of for a woman go get married at 14 in Illinois in 1840. As you indicate it would be unheard of for a man to marry at that age because he could not provide for the wife. Joseph was not seeking to justify sexual gratification by marrying this 14 year-old or any of the others. But on this one count, it was the girls father that wanted the marriage as it was important to him to have his family connected to the prophet.

It’s incredible the lengths people will go to to cement their absolute position that they are right. How many straws will you grasp at before you realize that it’s just dead grass? Since no man “turned their daughters and wives” to him, I doubt that he ever exercised that “power.” And historical records that shows a doctor performing abortions means what?

You are contradicting yourself.

 

[iepuras]

This is a rough generalization which assumes all polygamy is the same everywhere and in any period of history where it was practiced and this is not true. There are situations where the distribution of men and women have not always been equal. Though the population between men and women are fairly equal today, there is no reason to assume that one must dip into the kiddy pool to make up the difference. The age distribution of Joseph’s wives certainly indicated that older women can fill this gap. Over 15% of his wives were over 40 and over 50% of his wives where in his age group.

So how was polygamy practiced by the LDS in the 19th century different? Please show that there were far more women in Utah than men. There should be census records you can cite.

All the evidence I have indicates that none of the polygamous marriages were for sex. I can see no other reason that he did it except for the reason he said he did it for.

If this is the case, then didn’t Joseph Smith violate God’s command regarding polygamy?
Jacob 2:28-30:

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts,** raise up seed unto me, I will command my people**; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Doctrine & Covenants 132:63:

But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

LDS scriptures clearly state that God commands polygamy for the express purpose to have children. A man and a woman have to have sex to have children (with the exception of modern technology, which was not available to Smith). Then shouldn’t Joseph Smith have had sex with his polygamous wives in an effort to have children and follow God’s commandment? If not, then where in LDS scripture does it say that polygamy is ok when there is no intent to have children (and have sex)?

 

[iepuras]

A similar question was asked of fathers on a LDS forum, along the lines of would you turn your 14 year old daughter over to Joseph Smith to marry. Some responders said without question, they would. There’s something really wrong with some men of the LDS faith.

Yes, there is something very wrong.

 

[iepuras]

The best form of birth control is abstinence. You just listed 3 reasons why he would keep it secret. But to re-certify, the reasons he wanted to keep it secret was because:

1. It was illegal. He had enough problems. Why tell anyone about it? If it was just for sex, then find a few loose women and be done with it.

The funny thing is the women who turned down Joseph Smith were often slandered and called loose and immoral.

1. It offended the Christian sensibilities of his followers (and yet he shared it with them?) Actually, he shared it with the most offended, those that had been ministers before they became Mormons. It wasn’t the sensibilities he was protecting, it was an effort to keep it from running amok. Do you remember those guys who had the press that Joseph Smith caused to be destroyed because they were exposing him? Those guys were running amok with the concept, telling women it as a spiritual marriage and it was okay to have sex for a night. Joseph called them on it and they got excommunicated for it. Now there’s a reason to keep it secret.

He didn’t share the doctrine of polygamy with all of his followers. He kept it secret except to those in his inner circle, remember? That’s why it was such a big deal when William Law and others exposed it in the Expositor. William Law wasn’t “running amok” with the whole spiritual wifery/adultery thing. Mrs. Law turned down Smith’s advances and she told her husband. He was then excommunicated and then published the Expositor with others. Then Joseph Smith incited the riot.

1. Worried about Emma, well she knew about the first one. Joseph already knew it was going to be difficult for her. Keeping harmony in the home and obeying God’s commandments sometimes causes friction. (Do you think Abraham told Sarah that he was heading off with Isaac to sacrifice him?)

Emma knew about Fanny after she caught them in the barn. If polygamy was such an important commandment and Joseph cared about Emma’s feelings, why not just marry 1-2 additional women? Why did Joseph have to marry over 30?

There is no plausible evidence that he had sex with any of the married women.

Are you sure? Sylvia Sessions Lyon was already married to Windsor Lyon when she married Joseph Smith. Below is what Sylvia related to Josephine on her deathbed.
Josephine Rosetta Lyon:

Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

wivesofjosephsmith.org/08-SylviaSessionsLyon.htm

So how did Smith father Josephine if there was no sex involved? Or was Sylvia simply lying to her daughter on her deathbed?

 

[BrotherofJared]

A 14 year old is not a woman, she is an adolescent.

So, you’re saying Helen’s father pushed her on Joseph Smith to make a power connection? You don’t think this power connection does anything for Joseph Smith? Do you think God views girls and women to be used for power plays?

I really don’t see any power play here except from her father’s position. For all practical purposes it was in name only since the marriage happened but was never consummated as I’ve repeated so often that I feel like a broken record. I cannot see how it did anything for Joseph since he was dead shortly after this marriage. If he had lived, I still don’t see what the connection would have done for Joseph. Perhaps something could have come from it. We don’t know. Whatever it was, Helen’s father certainly wanted to be part of it.

What do you think it did for Joseph?

 

[BrotherofJared]

The funny thing is the women who turned down Joseph Smith were often slandered and called loose and immoral.

You can’t have it both ways, either it was secret or it wasn’t. It makes no sense to defame women who refused him as it wouldn’t keep it secret. It is no secret that women who were loose and immoral were disciplined in church councils, but those situations were not because they turned Joseph down for marriage. I would like to see where you got this information. But it doesn’t add up.

 

[BrotherofJared]

He didn’t share the doctrine of polygamy with all of his followers. He kept it secret except to those in his inner circle, remember? That’s why it was such a big deal when William Law and others exposed it in the Expositor. William Law wasn’t “running amok” with the whole spiritual wifery/adultery thing. Mrs. Law turned down Smith’s advances and she told her husband. He was then excommunicated and then published the Expositor with others. Then Joseph Smith incited the riot.

Your information is incorrect. William Law committed adultery. Then he was excommunicated. At that point, all bets are off. William Law was a loose cannon. Though he apparently didn’t agree with polygamy (which we’ll never know what his stance really was as he was excommunicated - having another wife was apparently not beyond him as he stepped out and started up relations outside the bonds of marriage - adultery, so it wasn’t too far beyond him.), he did want to be sealed to his wife which Joseph wouldn’t do on account that he committed adultery. We have an eye witness account that it was Mrs Law that beckoned Joseph to come talk to her, not Joseph seeking to talk to Mrs. Law. Whatever she proposed to Joseph, he rebuffed it. After that, it was her word against Joseph’s word and William had already had enough of Joseph. He took matters into his own hands. William Law’s journals say Joseph made advances at his wife, but the evidence suggests otherwise. This situation is not much different that the story of Joseph of Egypt and Potifer’s wife.

William Law had been kicked out of the inner circle and was in a steady downward spiral making a very bitter man out for revenge. You say Joseph incited the riot, but I think it’s more likely that William Law incited the riot. Who should be blamed for the fire? The person who lit the fire or the person who tried to put it out?

 

[iepuras]

Your information is incorrect. William Law committed adultery. Then he was excommunicated. At that point, all bets are off. William Law was a loose cannon. Though he apparently didn’t agree with polygamy (which we’ll never know what his stance really was as he was excommunicated - having another wife was apparently not beyond him as he stepped out and started up relations outside the bonds of marriage - adultery, so it wasn’t too far beyond him.), he did want to be sealed to his wife which Joseph wouldn’t do on account that he committed adultery. We have an eye witness account that it was Mrs Law that beckoned Joseph to come talk to her, not Joseph seeking to talk to Mrs. Law. Whatever she proposed to Joseph, he rebuffed it. After that, it was her word against Joseph’s word and William had already had enough of Joseph. He took matters into his own hands. William Law’s journals say Joseph made advances at his wife, but the evidence suggests otherwise. This situation is not much different that the story of Joseph of Egypt and Potifer’s wife.

William Law had been kicked out of the inner circle and was in a steady downward spiral making a very bitter man out for revenge. You say Joseph incited the riot, but I think it’s more likely that William Law incited the riot. Who should be blamed for the fire? The person who lit the fire or the person who tried to put it out?

Joseph Smith didn’t have to publicly explain why he was defaming anyone. His MO was to deny the allegations and accuse the woman of being a whore or prostitute and accused men who had issues with it of adultery.

When Martha Brotherton went public with Smith proposing marriage, her allegations were denied in the Nauvoo Wasp and she was called a “mean harlot”.

When Nancy Rigdon went public with Smith’s advances, Smith’s friend Stephen Markham swore out an affidavit stating that Mrs. Rigdon was “guilty of unlawful and illicit intercourse”. Orson Hyde made a speech in Nauvoo and stated that Mrs. Rigdon was “notorious in this city” and the equivalent of “a public prostitute”.

Sarah Pratt was given the same treatment when her rejection of Smith’s proposal went public. Sarah said that, “If any woman, like me, opposed his wishes, he used to say: ‘Be silent, or I shall ruin your character. My character must be sustained in the interests of the church’… In his endeavors to ruin my character, Joseph went so far as to publish [an] extra-sheet containing affidavits against my reputation.”

When Melissa Schindle published her affidavit of Smith’s advances towards her, the Wasp called her “a harlot”.

When Jane Law turned down Joseph Smith, she and William were excommunicated, but adultery was not mentioned as being the reason. The reason was apostasy. The accusations of adultery came later. It was a month later when William filed a law suit against Joseph Smith for for living “in an open state of adultery” with Maria Lawrence that Smith accused William of adultery.

Here we see a pattern of Smith and his friends accusing the men and women who rejected and went public with Smith’s polygamy of adultery or being “loose”. Everyone around Smith was sexually immoral, but he was clean and pure as the driven snow. I’m sure Smith wanted his polygamy to be kept a secret. That is why he threatened women who rejected him with slander. He wanted to keep them quiet. Not all of them did.

Why don’t you explain how Smith’s polygamous marriages were completely sexless when the reason God commands polygamy is to have children? It is clearly stated in LDS scriptures as I posted above. So did he violate God’s commandment when it came to polygamy? Or was he a pioneer in in vitro fertilization?

 

[iepuras]

You can’t have it both ways, either it was secret or it wasn’t. It makes no sense to defame women who refused him as it wouldn’t keep it secret. It is no secret that women who were loose and immoral were disciplined in church councils, but those situations were not because they turned Joseph down for marriage. I would like to see where you got this information. But it doesn’t add up.

Of course you don’t think it adds up because you believe that Joseph Smith could do no wrong. In order to continue to accept him as a “prophet of God”, you have to justify his unsavory behavior.

 

[kimg901]

The best form of birth control is abstinence. You just listed 3 reasons why he would keep it secret. But to re-certify, the reasons he wanted to keep it secret was because:

1. It was illegal. He had enough problems. Why tell anyone about it? If it was just for sex, then find a few loose women and be done with it.
2. It offended the Christian sensibilities of his followers (and yet he shared it with them?) Actually, he shared it with the most offended, those that had been ministers before they became Mormons. It wasn’t the sensibilities he was protecting, it was an effort to keep it from running amok. Do you remember those guys who had the press that Joseph Smith caused to be destroyed because they were exposing him? Those guys were running amok with the concept, telling women it as a spiritual marriage and it was okay to have sex for a night. Joseph called them on it and they got excommunicated for it. Now there’s a reason to keep it secret.
3. Worried about Emma, well she knew about the first one. Joseph already knew it was going to be difficult for her. Keeping harmony in the home and obeying God’s commandments sometimes causes friction. (Do you think Abraham told Sarah that he was heading off with Isaac to sacrifice him?)

There is no plausible evidence that he had sex with any of the married women.

While there is no evidence that smith had relations with these women what other purpose was there then? Either sex for personal pleasure or to procreate? Either way it was about sex.

 

[BrotherofJared]

Emma knew about Fanny after she caught them in the barn. If polygamy was such an important commandment and Joseph cared about Emma’s feelings, why not just marry 1-2 additional women? Why did Joseph have to marry over 30?

What difference would 1 or 2 additional wives make? Isn’t the argument about polygamy? We can accept one or two, but we can’t accept 30? No one knows the reason Joseph married over 30, but we can speculate until the cows come home and we still wouldn’t know.

The point I want to make is that Joseph was reluctant, but he followed what God told him to do. If the choice is between your wife or God, which one do you take. Abraham chose God, Joseph chose God. One can only suppose that keeping it secret was the only compassionate solution to a bad situation that either could come up with… that is unless you think that Abraham told Sarah that he was taking her only child up on the mountain to kill him because God told him too.

 

[BrotherofJared]

Are you sure? Sylvia Sessions Lyon was already married to Windsor Lyon when she married Joseph Smith. Below is what Sylvia related to Josephine on her deathbed.

So how did Smith father Josephine if there was no sex involved? Or was Sylvia simply lying to her daughter on her deathbed?

Of course I’m not sure. Are you sure that Josephine is actually Joseph’s daughter? Is all the proof you have a death bed testimony of her dying mother?

I venture my case on faith and on the character of Joseph Smith. Critics slander him and followers laud him. From his work, the results of his work, I can see no harm in the man. For whatever reason, if Josephine is the daughter of Joseph Smith, then Sylvia wasn’t married Mr. Lyon and it wasn’t polyandrous.

You have nothing more than a death bed confession and I have nothing more that my faith in the character of Joseph Smith. It is unfortunate that Sylvia could not elaborate more at the time. Why did she keep it a secret? Or any other information. I don’t doubt that Sylvia’s statement is true, but that statement by itself does not make it an affair, adultery or polyandry.