LDS view of passion

[tkdnick]

VincentO:

My Bible (New Jerusalem Bible) says this: "In his anguish he prayed even more earnestly, and his sweat fell to the ground like great drops of blood.’ (Luke 22:44)

The KJ version says this: “And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground”

I can’t find any reference to Jesus **actually **sweating blood in Gethsemane. Both of these quotes say that it was like he was sweating blood.

Just an observation as to the nature of the suffering - but I did notice your earlier quote from Bruce R McConkie mentioned that Jesus did actually bleed.

It could be that I have missed a further reference to this in scripture as i’ve only looked over the four accounts of the Passion.

Scholars tend to think what happened was called hemadrosis (??). It is a condition where the capillaries that supply blood to the sweat glads actually break and the blood in them tinges the sweat red, so as the person sweats, their sweat looks like blood because it is tinged with blood. It is not a full on, sweating of blood, but there is some blood in the sweat.

 

[tkdnick]

BJ Colbert:

I pointed out in another post that our Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley wrote a special message for Easter where he defined the view of the LDS Church. Asked why do you not use the cross as a symbol of your religion. He answered “No member of this Church must ever forget the terrible price paid by our Redeemer, who gave His life that all men might live___the agony of Gethsemane, the bitter mockery of His trial, the vicious crown of thorns tearing at His flesh, the blood cry of the mob before Pilate, the lonely burden of His heavy walk along the way to Calvary, the terrifying pain as great nails pierced His hands and feet, the fevered torture of His body as He hung that tragic day, the Son of God crying out, “Father forgive them; for they know not what they do”(Luke 23:34)
This was the cross, the instrument of His torture, the terrible device designed to destroy the Man of Peace, the evil recompense for His miraculous work of healing the sick, of causing the blind to see, of raising the dead. This was the cross on which He hung and died on Golgotha’s lonely summit.
We cannot forget that. We must never forget it, for here our Savior, our Redeemer, the Son of God, gave Himself, a vicarious sacrifice for each of us.”

This didn’t answer the question though…
“Asked why do you not use the cross as a symbol of your religion. He answered…”
He didn’t answer the question of why LDS don’t use the cross.

 

[VincentO]

tkdnick:

I REALLY don’t get this. My LDS friends wouldn’t go see it either. Their reason? Simply that it was a rated R movie, and they weren’t supposed to support movies that glorified violence, etc. I understand the not watching rated R movies, HOWEVER, if there was ONLY ONE rated R movie to see EVER, it would The Passion!!!

I have been hearing for several months that The Passion was either a)coming to theatres in PG-13 or b)coming to video in PG-13. I checked the movie theatres and the stores quite often hoping to find it. Never did, which made my heart sink. I would have LOVED to have found it and been able to give it to them for Easter! Come to find out…it came to select theatres in PG-13 and apparantly was a miserable flop. I sure hope it still comes out on video in PG-13.

Thanks for the replies tkdnick, I agree with you - I can’t understand someone whose religion believes in Christ not being allowed to see this movie.

If anything it doesn’t glorify violence it’s this movie - the reality of what happened to Our Lord hits home incredibly hard. It would be great to see a version that younger people could watch, especially if it got the same message across.

I have watched it on several occasions and never fail to be moved by it. In fact I watched it on the morning of Good Friday by way of preparation for the Commemoration of the Passion.

Thanks also for tracking down that quote - I just couldn’t see it for looking at it.

Vince

 

[VincentO]

Just thinking back to the conversation I had with my friend he definitely made it clear that he believed the agony in the garden was the part of the suffering which bought atonement for sins.

He said the death (and subsequent ressurection) of our Lord purchased ressurection for us.

He seemed to think the two were quite separate. I don’t agree, you can’t separate these.

Anyway, there does seem to be a difference, to an extent, in what LDS on this board say. Perhaps my friend has misunderstood.

I’m not sure of this so as he’s been very well educated in his faith and converted as a young adult. He generally knows his stuff so he must have learned it from somewhere!

This is another one of my rambling posts. What I would like to say though is that I wish I was as well Catechised as the LDS are versed in their faith. Although I don’t necessarily agree with it, it is very admirable.

Peace

Vince

 

[tkdnick]

VincentO:

This is another one of my rambling posts. What I would like to say though is that I wish I was as well Catechised as the LDS are versed in their faith. Although I don’t necessarily agree with it, it is very admirable.

Sadly, that is the case with most other Christians. Most other Christians know more about their faiths than we know about ours. And you know what’s even worse? I know people who are being catechized WRONG!

 

[Matt16_18]

Gordon B. Hinckley, fourteenth president of the Church, observed that “the cross is the symbol of the dying Christ, while our message is a declaration of the living Christ.”

All false religions deny the cross in some way.

Muslims deny that Jesus died on the cross.

Jehovah Witnesses claim that Jesus died on a stake.

Health-and-wealth Protestants deny the cross when they preach their false “prosperity gospel”.The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1Cor. 1:18

Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Matt. 16: 24-25

 

[tkdnick]

VincentO:

If anything it doesn’t glorify violence it’s this movie - the reality of what happened to Our Lord hits home incredibly hard. It would be great to see a version that younger people could watch, especially if it got the same message across.

I remember after watching the movie the first time thinking that there is no way a man could go through all that. There’s no way He could have been beat like that and still carry His cross all the way out to the hill, even with Simon’s help. Lady at church made a great point she said…“He wasn’t just a man…He was God!” AMEN sister!!!

I know that if it comes out PG-13, I am going to buy several copies to take to my LDS friends.

 

[Tmaque]

tkdnick:

Sadly, that is the case with most other Christians. Most other Christians know more about their faiths than we know about ours. And you know what’s even worse? I know people who are being catechized WRONG!

Coming from Mormonism I’ve noticed that the social construct of the churches are markedly different. In Mormonism there is a strong expectation to conform to the behavior of the group. For men, that means Priesthood Meeting, Sunday School and Sacarment Meeting every Sunday. This is in addition to many other church callings one may receive. One is looked down upon if they do not participate in all of these activities. There seems to be a belief that if you conform your behavior to match the group your soul (interior life) will conform as well.

In Catholicism I have found no such requirement or expectation. There seems a lack of external social pressure to attend any of the Church functions outside of Mass. It seems that the desire must be in your heart to go the extra mile and attend the extra activities. If you are a Catholic and going to Bible study, for instance, it’s not because of any social pressure of any kind. No one will think any more or less of you if you go. I think this fact accounts for the “under-catechized” Catholic. I haven’t decided whether the Catholic approach is better or worse than the LDS although I do agree that the average LDS person understands their Church’s doctrine better than the average Catholic.

 

[tkdnick]

Tmaque:

Coming from Mormonism I’ve noticed that the social construct of the churches are markedly different. In Mormonism there is a strong expectation to conform to the behavior of the group. For men, that means Priesthood Meeting, Sunday School and Sacarment Meeting every Sunday. This is in addition to many other church callings one may receive. One is looked down upon if they do not participate in all of these activities.

We had a friend who was VERY busy with all of the things he was doing both in his ward and outside (family, work, etc.) and his bishop called him to lead the boy scout troop. He told us and his family that he really didn’t have the time and really couldn’t do it, but because his bishop had called him to do it, he had no choice. THAT IS SAD!!!

 

[catholic-rcia]

This may help in your discussions

…the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

“He said to them all, 'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.”
Luke 9:23 "…

by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." Colossians 1:20

“…having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” Colossians 2:14

“…that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.” Ephesians 2:16 "

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel…" Col 1:21-23

"Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.” Mark 10:21

“… he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.” Matthew 10:38

“Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.” 1 Corinthians 1:17

“…if I still preach circumcision [conforming to accepted cultural standards], why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.” Galatians 5:11

“As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.” Galatians 6:12

“For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ; whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame – who set their mind on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven…” Philippians 3:1

8 “…looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Hebrews 12:2

 

[flameburns623]

tkdnick:

I REALLY don’t get this. My LDS friends wouldn’t go see it either. Their reason? Simply that it was a rated R movie, and they weren’t supposed to support movies that glorified violence, etc. I understand the not watching rated R movies, HOWEVER, if there was ONLY ONE rated R movie to see EVER, it would The Passion!!!

I have been hearing for several months that The Passion was either a)coming to theatres in PG-13 or b)coming to video in PG-13. I checked the movie theatres and the stores quite often hoping to find it. Never did, which made my heart sink. I would have LOVED to have found it and been able to give it to them for Easter! Come to find out…it came to select theatres in PG-13 and apparantly was a miserable flop. I sure hope it still comes out on video in PG-13.

Some years ago the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints decreed that–in order to end all confusion about what was or was not appropriate for Mormons to do–no member of the LDS Church should ever, at any time attend any sort of R-rated film regardless of how ‘positive’ the ultimate message of such a film might be. Nor, as I recall are they to view any ‘unrated’ or ‘foreign’ film , nor any PG or PG-13 film which reviewers indicate to include nudity, excessive or gratuitous violence or crude language; or which otherwise clearly lack redeeming social value (such as horror flicks). Other PG or PG13 films may be viewed judiciously, if the positive message of the film outweighs the aspects of the film which cause it to get a PG/PG-13 rating.

It is possible that LDS are able to watch “The Passion-Recut” version of this film but I don’t know this for certain. This is the version which Gibson released this year with some of the violent footage removed. In any case, LDS who didn’t go to the original version were simply being obedient to the guidance of their own leadership vis’a’vis ‘R’-rated film.

 

[mormon_fool]

flameburns623:

Some years ago the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints decreed that–in order to end all confusion about what was or was not appropriate for Mormons to do–no member of the LDS Church should ever, at any time attend any sort of R-rated film regardless of how ‘positive’ the ultimate message of such a film might be.

I am actually not aware of a recent decree from the First Presidency to avoid R-rated movies no matter what. There are a few quotes that can be be found about avoiding R-rated movies in general, though. I think this is one of those rules that follows “teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves”. By applying other correct principles, a case can be made to go see the movie despite its rating. A brief search on the net shows prominent mormons have viewed “The Passion” with little consequence. For example, Bob Millett is on record in the church owned newspaper as recomending it. In my discussions with fellow mormons there has been strong opinions for both seeing it and not seeing it. But the discussion is usually about the merits of the film itself and not just its rating.

 

[mormon_fool]

catholic-rcia:

This may help in your discussions

Nice to see you posting. One of these weeks, I will have to take you up on your invitation to attend a church service.

 

[tkdnick]

catholic-rcia:

1 Corinthians 1:18Luke 9:23 "…
Colossians 1:20
Colossians 2:14
Ephesians 2:16 "
Col 1:21-23
Mark 10:21
Matthew 10:38
1 Corinthians 1:17
Galatians 5:11
Galatians 6:12
Philippians 3:1
Hebrews 12:2

Good quotes!

 

[BJ_Colbert]

tkdnick:

This didn’t answer the question though…
“Asked why do you not use the cross as a symbol of your religion. He answered…”
He didn’t answer the question of why LDS don’t use the cross.

The answer was we must never forget the great sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross, it is a very important part of the whole picture. The fact is we do recognize the importance of the cross, we just do not use it as a symbol to wear as jewelry or as adornment of our churches. It is very sacred to us, but so is Jesus sacred to us and we do not have many statues of him, but we do have paintings in our church buildings and a large Lladro statue of him in the visitor’s center of some of our Temples(maybe all). As President Hinckley said we prefer to use our lives as symbols of our dedication to our Lord Jesus Christ. That does not mean we look down or think less of others who choose to use the cross as the symbol of their dedication to the Lord.
I hope that is more clear…BJ

 

[catholic-rcia]

BJ Colbert:

The answer was we must never forget the great sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross, it is a very important part of the whole picture. The fact is we do recognize the importance of the cross, we just do not use it as a symbol to wear as jewelry or as adornment of our churches. It is very sacred to us, but so is Jesus sacred to us and we do not have many statues of him, but we do have paintings in our church buildings and a large Lladro statue of him in the visitor’s center of some of our Temples(maybe all). As President Hinckley said we prefer to use our lives as symbols of our dedication to our Lord Jesus Christ. That does not mean we look down or think less of others who choose to use the cross as the symbol of their dedication to the Lord.
I hope that is more clear…BJ

 

[catholic-rcia]

BJ Colbert:

The answer was we must never forget the great sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross, it is a very important part of the whole picture.

BJ

BJ, I think that you would be better served by changing the below that you wrote to this:

“That does not mean that (I) look down or think less of others who choose to use the cross as the symbol of their dedication to the Lord.”

I do believe you mean it.

Do you think that in wearing the cross around your neck, it might help you to remember this sacrifice? Why do those who are marrried wear a wedding ring?

Would you have the humility to wear the greatest of all Christian symbols in your Sunday Gathering? A Place where you yourself recognize the importance of the cross in your life. As President Hinckley said “we prefer to use our lives as symbols of our dedication to our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Is he saying that this preference is better than another’s? That you are a mere symbol of dedication?

Would a cross around your neck not be part of you? Part of that life infused in Christ?

We as Catholics have come to see ourselves not as symbols in dedication to Christ but rather Part of the Body of Christ where we each participate in Christ mission to save us . Him working in us and through us. The Cross being engrained in this great mission (1 Cor chapter 12)

BJ You wrote:

“the answer was we must never forget the great sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross”

Is this really what your Church teaches? That Jesus made the great Sacrifice on the Cross? I was not taught this as a young Mormon.

A prominent Mormon here in Northern Utah told me that the Cross represents nothing more than a murder weapon and that it is appalling that Christians anywhere would use it as a symbol? Just the other day I was told that having three crosses on some grass next to our church was weird. I can not think of a Christian raised in any Christian faith that would think of the cross as weird. They would not have been taught about any negative aspects of the cross accept the positive in its message. (Christ wins / Devil looses)

“As President Hinckley said we prefer to use our lives as symbols of our dedication to our Lord Jesus Christ.”

As Christians we prefer to use our lives as fact that we are fallen and know that our dedication is at best weak, because of this fallen nature we tend to be dedicated to self more than to Christ. More like Peter who ran rather than face the Cross head on. But with Christ in us, and with the cross shadowing us we build on that particular relationship that reminds us of who we are, in order to see Christ for the Savior that he really is. It makes for a very special relationship. It’s not in the “Father look what I have done for you”, its more of a “Father look what I have failed to do”, in order to look at what Jesus has done for all of us. The worship of self is burst and the worship of Christ is lifted into heights that lesson our own burdens and frees our soul in ways untold. Christ’s dedication flows from those who come to serve Him well. Like communion itself, the cross is not a symbol as much as it is our lives.

A Priest once wrote:

How few of the baptized appreciate the essence of all revelations: that God dwells in the man who is in the state of grace? This is the campaign that is most urgently needed: to help each and every one to Realize fully, perhaps for the first time, the divine dignity that Baptism confers by engrafting us upon Christ Himself making us a living member of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, communicating to us the very life of the Blessed Trinity, making us partners in the royal priesthood of Christ and His Church, uniting us in a common kinship with all our baptized brethren by this spiritual solidarity, which is the Communion of Saints, consecrating us as living chalices, as living temples to the personal and social worship of the true God.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

VincentO:

Thanks for the replies tkdnick, I agree with you - I can’t understand someone whose religion believes in Christ not being allowed to see this movie.

If anything it doesn’t glorify violence it’s this movie - the reality of what happened to Our Lord hits home incredibly hard. It would be great to see a version that younger people could watch, especially if it got the same message across.

I have watched it on several occasions and never fail to be moved by it. In fact I watched it on the morning of Good Friday by way of preparation for the Commemoration of the Passion.

Thanks also for tracking down that quote - I just couldn’t see it for looking at it.

Vince

LDS were not told not to see"The Passion". Apparently this woman’s Bishop advised his ward not to see the movie, but the church as a whole was not advised. (I can’s believe he would have forbidden it) It is left up to individual choice to either see a movie or not. We are advised to avoid R ratings, but it still is individual choice. Just as voting is individual choice. The LDS Church does not advise us on political matters. If our choices were dictated to us by the Church that would take away our most precious right of free agency. Which is to choose for ourselves. I preferred not to see it because I have a very weak stomach for blood and was told it was very bloody and violent. I would have lived every minute of it and I prefer not to put myself through the stress. I don’t see any violent movies because I get too emotionally involved. I remember my Savior’s sacrifice and though I hope never to suffer a similar fate, I think I can understand His suffering and pain without seeing it in living color. No man can fully understand His suffering even seeing the movie, but I am so glad you did see it and others did, and that it gave you greater understanding of His great sacrifice for our sins. My very good Mormon mother wanted to see it, but she has Parkinson’s and also can’t tolerate violence as it upsets her delicate condition.
It was my own choice not to see it, but I know many Mormons who chose to see it and the point is the Church, as far as I know left it up to the individual.
BJ

 

[jack_johns]

I think im writing to Vincent here or anyone who’s interested but as i posted in another catagory of things that the cross it what he was kille on. if a gun killed your mother would you want a picture of the gun or your mother. as far as atoning for sins in the garden of gethsemane, yes that is mormon doctrine and he did bleed from all pores of his body as written in John. that isn’t to say that he didn’t suffer on the cross. he did he most certainly did and that as well as the garden of Gethasemane were both places of severe pain uncomprehensible to the mind.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

First of all in the words of Mel Gibson, “The Bible is Rated R”.

next,

I think im writing to Vincent here or anyone who’s interested but as i posted in another catagory of things that the cross it what he was kille on. if a gun killed your mother would you want a picture of the gun or your mother. as far as atoning for sins in the garden of gethsemane, yes that is mormon doctrine and he did bleed from all pores of his body as written in John. that isn’t to say that he didn’t suffer on the cross. he did he most certainly did and that as well as the garden of Gethasemane were both places of severe pain uncomprehensible to the mind.

If your mom saved the world and rose from the dead then there would be nothing wrong with using a gun. Same thing for what happened to Christ, if a gun was used instead of a cross all references would be changed to a gun. And whenever we would look at a gun we would remember what was accomplished through it. One thing that I havent seen here is what happened between the garden and the Cross, that is the beating, mockery and more beating, that is where a lot of blood was shed. The garden wasnt the place where Christ fulfilled His mission, it was in that area where Christ asked if the mission was to even happen. Something to the effect of “If it is possible let this cup pass by…” indicating that the real work was yet to come, and only IF the Father willed it.
Im not saying that is insignificant, but all the points have to be considered and the importance of each has to be recognized. There is a prayer Catholics use, it is called the Rosary, and in one of the forms we meditate on each phase, starting in the Garden, going to get beaten, being mocked, and finishing with the Cross which is the zenith. We take all factors into consideration and dont leave anything out, but we also realize that things couldnt get much worse than the Cross, and as some people have posted the passage where Christ tells us that we must take up our cross, not go into a garden.