LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[Stephen168]

Children under age eight are saved without baptism.

As I think about 1 Cor 15:22 and 1 Peter 1:18; do you have a New Testament reference for the age of 8 being a spiritual cut off point for free salvation.

 

[Janderich]

So everyone is saved, then (provided your temple does a proxy baptism)?

Everyone who accepts baptism can be saved. No doubt there are some who will not do so. The individual in the spirit world still has free will and must accept the ordinance.

 

[zaffiroborant]

It has never changed. People try to force doctrine down our throats because the prophet or apostles taught it. That is not how it works. Many times the prophets taught a higher level of understanding to help in the progress of the Saints. But many times the Saints were not ready to live it. So it was recended. Or many times they taught their own opinions,

I have never seen a clearer example of the following than your description of “how it works”.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Though I do think the last part is more in line with this translation, it seems to say that those who toss people to and fro with their teachings are themselves deceived by error.

English Revised Version
that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

 

[zaffiroborant]

Jesus was buried into the water and came out just like it says. And they already lived polygamy back then.

But it doesn’t say what you say it says.

 

[Janderich]

Therefore an eight year old

Accountable for what and why is baptism suddenly required.

At eight a child is accountable to God for his own sins. God established the age when he said, “And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old” (D&C 68:27).

Stephen168:

Yet Unless the child has sinned there is no washing, so it would seem pointless. Is it being sinless, being baptized, or being in the convenient that is required to enter the kingdom?

Baptism is not only to cleanse one from sins already committed but allows one to receive forgiveness for sins he commits after baptism. No one but Christ was perfect.

To enter the kingdom one must be baptized, in the covenant, and ultimately be free of sin. How can one be sinless unless he receives a remission of sin? How can one receive a remission of sin unless he is in the covenant? And how can one enter the covenant except he is baptized?

 

[Janderich]

So again it seems that baptizing, in this life, is pointless. Live a sin filled life and get baptized in the next.

One who has had the full opportunity to accept the ordinance in this life but rejected it, will not obtain the same glory as one who has been offered and accepted the gospel in this life.

 

[RebeccaJ]

At eight a child is accountable to God for his own sins. God established the age when he said, “And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old” (D&C 68:27).

Baptism is not only to cleanse one from sins already committed but allows one to receive forgiveness for sins he commits after baptism. No one but Christ was perfect.

To enter the kingdom one must be baptized, in the covenant, and ultimately be free of sin. How can one be sinless unless he receives a remission of sin? How can one receive a remission of sin unless he is in the covenant? And how can one enter the covenant except he is baptized?

So it is a sin to not be baptized, even for those who are not aware that baptism is necessary? How can someone be held accountable for something they don’t know?

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin.

 

[Stephen168]

Did you see what you did here. You were talking about baptism and then as if your position was to weak you took another path. If you want to talk about that fine, but stick to one topic, and quit trying to deflect of change the topic.

We are talking about the Great Apostasy and my argument is

…Joseph Smith made up a religion with beliefs contrary to Christianity. Joseph Smith is right, and the historical Church started by Christ is wrong, therefore there was an Apostasy. You believe it because Joseph Smith said so with NO proof.

It is Joseph Smith and Mormonism that change doctrine and are in Apostasy. One example is the the Mormon belief in a “hereditary stain.”

That was the reason Blacks were unworthy of the priesthood. But like all things Mormon, your god seems to have changed his mind.

Another example is baptist:

Catholic baptism is the new circumcision into the New Covenant for the forgiveness of the sin of Adam. The only theological difference between the purpose of Catholic baptism and the purpose of Mormon baptism is which sins are forgiven. We believe it is for original and personal sin and Mormons believe it is for personal sin. Both Churches believe sin can be forgiven after baptism, so why not enter the covenant with Christ and all his graces as soon as possible?

Historically Mormonism came out of the Restoration/Primitivism movement. The Restoration movement held to the 16th century invention of a believer’s baptism. Joseph Smith held on to the ancient purpose of baptism but also adopted the restoration movement’s rejection of infant baptism. So Smith rejected infant baptism with no theological reason for doing so. This makes Mormon baptism irrational.

 

[Stephen168]

Baptism is not only to cleanse one from sins already committed but allows one to receive forgiveness for sins he commits after baptism. No one but Christ was perfect.

To enter the kingdom one must be baptized, in the covenant, and ultimately be free of sin. How can one be sinless unless he receives a remission of sin? How can one receive a remission of sin unless he is in the covenant? And how can one enter the covenant except he is baptized?

None of what you said is a reason to withhold baptism from an infant. Infants will grow after baptism, and being in the covenant, Christ will forgive their future sins.

At eight a child is accountable to God for his own sins. God established the age when he said, “And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old” (D&C 68:27).

Yes that is my point. Joseph Smith made it up. He made it up by trying unsuccessfully to combine the ancient belief and practice of infant baptism with the 16th century invention of a believer’s baptism.

 

[Stephen168]

One who has had the full opportunity to accept the ordinance in this life but rejected it, will not obtain the same glory as one who has been offered and accepted the gospel in this life.

There is only one glory. Sounds like something else Joseph Smith made up.

 

[PRmerger]

Everyone who accepts baptism can be saved. No doubt there are some who will not do so. The individual in the spirit world still has free will and must accept the ordinance.

How long does he have free will? For eternity?

Can he change his mind in eternity? Decide to refuse the salvation?

 

[Janderich]

So it is a sin to not be baptized, even for those who are not aware that baptism is necessary? How can someone be held accountable for something they don’t know?

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin.

I agree with you that only those who are aware of the need for baptism and reject it have sinned. However, at some point, whether in this life or the next, all will hear the gospel message. All must eventually decide. There are no fence sitters. Jesus has said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”(John 3:5).
And again, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep…by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” (John 10:7,9)

 

[Janderich]

There is only one glory. Sounds like something else Joseph Smith made up.

There are many glories. Joseph received more revelation on the matter but the truth can be found in the Bible:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. (1 Cor 15:40-42)

 

[Janderich]

How long does he have free will? For eternity?

Can he change his mind in eternity? Decide to refuse the salvation?

All ordinances of salvation must be performed before the resurrection. After this point no doubt a person has free will but the opportunity is passed and the glory they will recieve is determined.

 

[PRmerger]

All ordinances of salvation must be performed before the resurrection. After this point no doubt a person has free will but the opportunity is passed and the glory they will recieve is determined.

What resurrection? The resurrection of the dead?

 

[Stephen168]

There are many glories. Joseph received more revelation on the matter but the truth can be found in the Bible:

We were talking about baptism which is done to humans, not stars and moons. Clearly, Joseph Smith made this up.

 

[Janderich]

What resurrection? The resurrection of the dead?

Yes.

 

[Arandur]

I don’t see how anyone could say that baptism does not require authority. When the chief priests ask Jesus how he got his authority he says, “I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?” (Matt 21:24-25) The chief priests fearing either answer said they could not tell. Why would Christ ask them about John’s authority to baptize if it was not required? Moreover, why would the chief priests question what to answer if authority did not matter?

Please read more slowly when you read responses–you missed the whole point. It is Jesus the Christ, our High Priest, who performs the baptism. That is why the only formula for baptism is by invoking the Triune Name, “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

Baptism’s regenerating power, incorporating people into God’s covenant family, occurs only and solely through the power of Jesus Christ himself. HE is the authority.

 

[Arandur]

We do not deny baptism. We deny the need for baptism until age eight. Little children are saved in Christ. The Lord holds the child accountable at age eight not before hand.

…Which the Holy Scripture says…absolutely nowhere. Nor can such a thought be found anywhere, ever mentioned a single time, in the Early Church…not until the 15th century, IIRC. False innovation created by your own minds, your own opinions, not God’s.

Baptism is not solely about repentance from personal sin. It is the repairing of Fallen human nature, the reparation and redemption from that first sin of Adam, the re-birth of a person into God’s Covenant family.

The Early Christians dearly wanted their children to be incorporated into God’s Covenant family, re-united by Christ. They cherished the free gift of God’s Grace in Baptism for their little ones. Why can’t you? Why do you deny them that, and hold little children back from God, denying them the Covenant?

All your questions present a false premise. Children do not “die in sin”. Instead they are alive in Christ through the atonement. There is no fear of the devil getting his hooks into them. They are saved from both physical and spiritual death through the atonement. “But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if no so, God is a partial God and also a changeable God and a respecter of persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!” (Moroni 8:12) Man has created this fear and false teaching.

Again, please slow down and read more carefully. You missed the whole point again. Your arbitrary age of 8, pegged as the “age of reason” ignores the many implications of a such a weak idea.

What if the child is too shy to be baptized and waits a year, a month, a week after their 8th birthday, and yet sins, and then dies before baptism?

What if a child is “precocious” enough to fully understand and effectively be at the “age of reason” before the numerical age of 8?

What if you baptize an 8 year old child who has as yet committed no sin?

You seem to require personal sin before you allow someone the gift of entrance into the New Covenant.

 

[Janderich]

Please read more slowly when you read responses–you missed the whole point. It is Jesus the Christ, our High Priest, who performs the baptism. That is why the only formula for baptism is by invoking the Triune Name, “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

Baptism’s regenerating power, incorporating people into God’s covenant family, occurs only and solely through the power of Jesus Christ himself. HE is the authority.

Of course Christ validates the ordinance, but he does not perform it. Is God’s kingdom so disorganized that any person may perform a baptism by simply saying a few words? If a random citizen gave me a ticket for speeding I wouldn’t accept it as valid, even it was on the right form. If man in his imperfect state can recognize the need for authority here on Earth can God’s kingdom be more disorganized as this?