LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[Janderich]

Jan,

No milk. So once things are done waiting for assignment as a result of mercy prior to assignment can this assignment to whatever level be lost while waiting in this life.

Coptic, I’m not sure I understand the question. Can you clarify? Thanks.

 

[kimg901]

The Melchizedek priesthood is the priesthood used to shape the earth. It was held by Christ before the world began.

So then Jan. Wouldnt it be fair to say that if its Christs’ Priesthood, and it was used to shape the world that it belonged to Christ and Christ only? It has never left Him and that its something that cannot be passed down to anyone?

 

[Stephen168]

I’m not sure where you get the idea that the apostles did not hold keys. Below is a statement from Orson Hyde, one of the twelve, who was present when Joseph passed keys to the twelve before his death. This is his recolection of the words Joseph spoke:

And from Wilford Woodruff another of the twelve present on the same occasion. Again quoting Joseph Smith:

Brigham Young wondered aloud if Joseph Smith had taken the keys with him when he died, so Young knew at the moment of Smiths death that he did not have the keys. If it was clear there would not have been a succession crisis which caused the latter day saint movement to divide into several groups. Young and the other 11 took over the largest group. Orson Hyde and Wilford Woodruff benefited from Young’s take over, so their “recollection” after the fact is suspicious at least.

Don’t forget that the latter-day saint movement was five years old before Smith invented his apostles, so he didn’t not think apostles were necessary for authority

At the time of Joseph Smith’s death the First Presidency included: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon. The head of the Presiding High Council was William Marks. The head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Brigham Young. After the Smith’s were killed, only Sidney Rigdon remained in the First Presidency.
As the member of the First Presidency (holder of the keys) Rigdon claimed to be guardian of the church and Apostle John Page and Elder William Marks supported him in that claim.
Brigham Young as the head Apostle claimed Joseph Smith was an Apostle and held the keys. Because Young was the head Apostle he claimed to replace Smith as the holder of the keys. This was the first time any Mormon thought of an Apostle as being a key holder.
The Church membership voted for Young, as leader of the third level church council, to lead the church; and raise the Quorum of Twelve Apostles over the Presiding High Council while taking over the First Presidency.

 

[KathleenGee]

I agree with Rebecca’s post 901.

And secondly, again, to reiterate…Jesus Christ is the One High Priest Who fulfilled Melchizedek, but His ministry did not begin until after He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, wounded, but glorious and triumphant as the Lamb of God, the one true sacrifice that pleased God alone…and also fulfilled the sacrifice by Abraham who was faithful to even sacrifice his own son, which of course did not happen.

The Angel Gabriel stopped Abraham from sacrificing his son and pointed to a ram stuck in a bush, and to offer that ram as sacrifice to God to atone for sin. No mention of anything else.

Angel Moroni comes on 1800 years after Christ and provides a very different message from atonement for sin.

The forbidden fruit was offered to Eve to become as gods. She and Adam ate of it, and they committed the Original Sin…to become as gods.

So if Angel Moroni came to help the male gender become as gods, his message is opposite of what Angel Gabriel foretold…who also pointed to the infant lying in a manger to the shepherds 3000 years later.

It is this contradiction to salvation history and its many points and the Mormon inability to follow the truth already provided by Christ Who is God, whose apostles exhorted us to follow them as they were the only authentic, faithful witnesses to Christ.

When you hear a contradictory message, be wise…not of the type you claim Eve sought …she sought wisdom when taking the fruit??..but instead flee, and seek the truth of the Tree of Life which is Christ Himself visible in the Church.

When Aaron and the Hebrews worshipped the Golden Calf, they broke the Covenant of the Law…when Moses was bringing it down to the people. After this betrayal and fall into idolatry, this ended the Aaronite priesthood, never to be resurrected again.

Only the Levites refused to worship the Golden Calf…essentially the empty promises and riches of the world that rot and are eaten by moths, and even the food of the Egyptians vs the coming manna from heaven.

But there were criteria for the Levite priesthood. And they had to prove their Levite ancestral line of their parents, they could only serve between the ages in their 30’s, meaning they had a beginning, and they had to end their priesthood at a certain in their 50’s, so they had their end.

The Levites used bloody sacrifice, whereas Christ had only one sacrifice to offer: Himself, and perpetual that is represented at the Daily Sacrifice of the Mass…where we eat of the Tree of Life which fulfills the offering by God Himself to Adam and Eve they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life.

The Lord Jesus could have prepared His way to begin His earthly ministry. But instead He came to St. John the Baptist to prepare for Him and to baptize Him with water, and subsequently the affirmation of this beginning ministry with the theophany of God the Father and the Holy Spirit in the form of the dove. The Lord chose a mortal man, a sinner, to prepare His way, and to baptize Him, and this mortal man key in facilitating Christ’s ministry on earth.

Jesus Christ chose 12 apostles, who they themselves admit they were chosen before they even came into this world. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, this truth affirmed at His baptism. Jesus Christ is Son of God, and as the human face of God does not make mistakes in who He has chosen for apostles.

The apostles did not chose directly who would take the place of Judas Iscariot. They drew lots and let mystery beyond them chose Barrnabus. And the apostles chose their successors through the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised to leave His Holy Spirit Who would lead them; and guide them and comfort them.

And likewise at the Last Supper, which is the institution of the priesthood using gifts of bread and wine, the Lord has human ministers to provide us the true intrepretation of the Word of God, of Christ himself Who is Logos, and to provide us the sacraments, all this endured to our present time through the consistency of teachings, of the profession of faith in the Creed, through the Liturgy, through the correct Books of Scripture…all in force and institutionalized by 100 ad.

 

[Stephen168]

How does my argument presuppose that the Melchizedek priesthood was established by Christ after Calvary? This is not true at all. The Melchizedek priesthood is the priesthood used to shape the earth. It was held by Christ before the world began. It was at one time known as the “Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God” but to avoid the to frequent use of the term it is called the Melchizedek priesthood. Through Christ comes all priesthood authority but it was held by the ancient patriarchs and prophets.

It was not ‘held’ by anybody, it is an invention of Joseph Smith’s in 19th century America. You will never find the phrase “Melchizedek priesthood” in writing anywhere before that date.

 

[kimg901]

It was not ‘held’ by anybody, it is an invention of Joseph’s Myth in 19th century America. You will never find the phrase “Melchizedek priesthood” in writing anywhere before that date.

I had to! Sorry Stephen, just a little humor

 

[RebeccaJ]

In addition, Smith had annointed his own son, Joseph Smith III, as his successor. The boy was too young to lead at the time of Smith’s murder. Smith’s widow, Emma, did not support Young’s claims. She stayed in Nauvoo, as the Young, Rigdon, and Strang groups moved on.

When Smith III told his mother that God had called him to lead a reorganized restored church, she supported him. They went to a conference in Illinois where he was sustained as leader of the Reorganized LDS. Significant to Mormons this took place on April 6,1860, the date his father had established his own church. The RLDS are now called Community of Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

Also, its your souls (lds and others) that are bound for hades because you know of Christ original and true teachings but yet do not follow what He says…

One thing that the Church has never proclaimed is that it knows who is going to hell. Neither do you or I. These kind of statements aren’t helpful.

 

[kimg901]

One thing that the Church has never proclaimed is that it knows who is going to hell. Neither do you or I. These kind of statements aren’t helpful.

I never said the Church said. I was just saying its what I believe. Plus it says somewhere in the Bible that those who deny the teachings of Christ after hearing them will be punished or something like that. I cant quote Scripture but I know its there. But sorry i offended.

 

[SteveVH]

I never said the Church said. I was just saying its what I believe. Plus it says somewhere in the Bible that those who deny the teachings of Christ after hearing them will be punished or something like that. I cant quote Scripture but I know its there. But sorry i offended.

Yes I’m sure you can find it in the bible, but proof texting without considering context and the teachings of the Church on the subject doesn’t get us very far. In any event, I have offended plenty of folks so its something on which we all need to work.

 

[RebeccaJ]

One thing that the Church has never proclaimed is that it knows who is going to hell. Neither do you or I. These kind of statements aren’t helpful.

Kimg tied the statement to scripture. While no, we do not judge, we can see what is written and have a concern for our soul, and the souls of others. Mormons need to have a concern for their souls, as we all do.

But Mormons do not have a concern. They believe as long as they are checking off the to-do list, they need have no concern. They believe their made-up priesthood sets them apart from the rest of the world, giving them a special status. There is no working out ones salvation with fear and trembling for a Mormon. Smith has convinced them that they are set, as long as they are making a perceptible climb on the ladder to godhood, all is well. Even going as far to make up a “second anointing” that tells people they are set for the celestial kingdom and there is NOTHING they do, say, don’t do, don’t say, that will change that destiny.

Mormons have been lulled to sleep by the lullaby of demons, and come here to tell us they are saints.

Kimg is right to warn them.

 

[CopticChristian]

Jan,

No milk. So once things are done waiting for assignment as a result of mercy prior to assignment can this assignment to whatever level be lost while waiting in this life.

Jan,

Let’s agree that I know in your mind you recall being told that you know more theology than those that question and to respond with “milk” no “meat”. Why give meat when milk will do. Ok.

Now basing your belief on Alma12:34, pending an assignment while living can the hope of assignment be lost or is that hope of assignment assured. A simple yes or no would be meat.

Yes you can or no you cannot lose the hope of assignment.

 

[SteveVH]

Kimg tied the statement to scripture. While no, we do not judge, we can see what is written and have a concern for our soul, and the souls of others. Mormons need to,have a concern for,their souls, as we all do.

No doubt.

But Mormkns do not have a concern. They believe as long as they are checking off the to-do list, they need have no concern. They believe their made-up priesthood sets them apart from the rst of the world, giving them a special status. There is no working out ones salvation with fear an trembling for a Mormon. Smith has convinced them that they are set, as long as they are making a perceptible climb on the ladder to godhood, all is well. Even going as far to make up a “second anointing” that tells people they are set for the celestial kingdom and there is NOTHING they do, say, don’t do, don’t say, that will change that destiny.

Mormons have been lulled to sleep by the lullaby of demons, and come here to tell us they are saints.

Kimg is right to warn them.

I do not disagree that following the Mormon faith puts one’s soul in grave danger. At the same time, as a Catholic I believe that God goes to extraordinary lengths to save us. Anyway, as I said, I should probably be the last to criticize someone for making an offensive remark.

 

[PRmerger]

I never said the Church said. I was just saying its what I believe.

What you believe here, in this context, is contrary to the Church.

For the Church has not stated that Mormons go to hell, de facto.

Therefore, you ought not be proclaiming things, as a Catholic, which are contrary to what the Church proclaims.

Plus it says somewhere in the Bible that those who deny the teachings of Christ after hearing them will be punished or something like that.

This is true, but we cannot discern which people have denied the teachings of Christ after hearing them.

 

[LivingWaters7]

But Mormons do not have a concern. They believe as long as they are checking off the to-do list, they need have no concern. They believe their made-up priesthood sets them apart from the rest of the world, giving them a special status. There is no working out ones salvation with fear and trembling for a Mormon. Smith has convinced them that they are set, as long as they are making a perceptible climb on the ladder to godhood, all is well.

Luckily this is not how actual, believing and practicing, Latter-day Saints go about their faith. If a Latter-day Saint views their faith as a checklist, and are not working out their salvation with fear and trembling, exercising continuous repentance and reliance on Christ’s atonement, they are going against the clear teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ. For Latter-day Saints, salvation requires our continuous efforts, and our continuous repentance as we falter, enduring to the end.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Luckily this is not how actual, believing and practicing, Latter-day Saints go about their faith. If a Latter-day Saint views their faith as a checklist, and are not working out their salvation with fear and trembling, exercising continuous repentance and reliance on Christ’s atonement, they are going against the clear teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ. For Latter-day Saints, salvation requires our continuous efforts, and our continuous repentance as we falter, enduring to the end.

Continuous effort at keeping your place on the rung of the ladder that you have worked yourself up to. Not for God but for your self centered goal of becoming a god. What you believe about the atonement of Christ is for this benefit alone. Godhood.

I’m not pointing this out just to point it out. Mormons want to be mollycoddled, and told, “hey, you’re ok”. Mormonism is not OK.

And you ignore the second anointing.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No doubt.

I do not disagree that following the Mormon faith puts one’s soul in grave danger. At the same time, as a Catholic I believe that God goes to extraordinary lengths to save us. Anyway, as I said, I should probably be the last to criticize someone for making an offensive remark.

I agree, God goes to extraordinary lengths. But it is a sin to presume. We have a hope for salvation, and hope has a name, Jesus Christ. So this is not the hope of wishing for a white Christmas, but it is a sure hope, of waiting for a loved one you know is going to return.

Mormons need one message, and one message alone. Believe in Jesus Christ. Repent and be baptized. Believe in the true Lord and God, not the one of their making (which is idolatry).

 

[SteveVH]

I agree, God goes to extraordinary lengths. But it is a sin to presume. We have a hope for salvation, and hope has a name, Jesus Christ. So this is not the hope of wishing for a white Christmas, but it is a sure hope, of waiting for a loved one you know is going to return.

Mormons need one message, and one message alone. Believe in Jesus Christ. Repent and be baptized. Believe in the true Lord and God, not the one of their making (which is idolatry).

To be sure, it is a sin to presume either way. But as you say, we can have hope in the mercy of God for all people. It really dawned on me the other day as I was on a Mormon forum how lost these people are in their faith. Even in conversations among themselves it seems to be mass confusion as to what they are to believe. Their idea of God seems almost childish (not child-like) and their idea of salvation completely misguided. So I pray for God’s mercy on them.

 

[RebeccaJ]

To be sure, I do not presume anyone is saved other than the saints. But as you say, we can have hope in the mercy of God for all people. It really dawned on me the other day as I was on a Mormon forum how lost these people are in their faith. Even in conversations among themselves it seems to be mass confusion as to what they are to believe. Their idea of God seems almost childish (not child-like). So I pray for God’s mercy on them.

I agree. I often find myself at mass, hoping for our Mormon brothers and sisters to join us. It is God who brings us to everlasting salvation, and bestows mercy.

 

[kimg901]

We pray to our God, the true and living God. Who do they pray to? A god that changes his mind. They believe they will be god-like (11 lds people told me this) and while I dont agree with their teachings, I do believe that in order to stand in Heaven we must be free off sin like God (we will not be god-like in having super powers) and those in the Heavenly Kingdom. But God does work His Will, not ours. We have a mormon choir director now and he has to be there all the time for mass. God is working His Will in His Church