LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[CopticChristian]

Whether or not the Doctrine and Covenants “means nada to most” is not of concern, since Janderich is explaining what Latter-day Saints believe, correct?

LW,

You are incorrect. The word “feel” appears in the plea but nowhere is it stated, belief

 

[CopticChristian]

Oh my.

LW,

This is sad. Mormons are not Christian. Mormons may look like, sound like, feelike, act like Christians, but sadly they are not. You may sing in the shower, carry a tune, and believe you are Madonna, but you are not.

 

[RebeccaJ]

In the spirit of the movie “Lincoln”, which I liked

It seems that when Abe Lincoln was a young trial lawyer in Sangamon County, Illinois, he was arguing a case with a lawyer whose version of the facts came more from his imagination than the testimony. Lincoln, in his argument, turned on him and said:

“Tell me, sir, how many legs has a sheep got?” “Why, four, of course”, the fellow answered. “And if I called his tail a leg, then how many legs would that sheep have?”, Lincoln asked. The answer came, “Then he’d have five.” “No!” Lincoln roared, pounding the jury rail, “he’d still have just four legs. Calling his tail a leg won’t make it a leg. Now let’s look at the actual testimony and see how many tails you’ve been calling legs.”

…Mormon “great apostasy” has a great many tails that they are calling legs. It’s a conspiracy theory, and nothing more.

 

[batman1973]

It’s not so much a conspiracy theory as it is wishful thinking. The only way Joseph could justify his “church” was to claim that the original was broken, and he had the repairs. We all know( with the exception of those poor souls lost in it) that his “church” is a lie. We need to pray that the Truth will come to them in a mighty way.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Let’s try this again Janderich.

Rebecca, I’m not sure why you say Mormonism is individualistic. Christ atoned for all. All will be resurrected regardless of what they do and all will have the opportunity to repent and be saved. I do not disagree.

You are insulting my intelligence here, which tries my patience.

We are not in agreement. Jesus Christ and his Apostles never taught, once, that we would die and continue on in judgement after we are dead. We are judged for THIS life. This life ends when one passes through the gate to the next. Judgement is made. The Mormon teaching of actions after death being judged is wholly made up. It is not scriptural at all. (By scripture, I mean Christian scripture, not Mormon scripture.)

Moreover we feel we are under heavens mandate to perform saving ordinances for all those who have died and may accept this gospel. All who will, must be given the opportunity to be saved. In 1841 the Lord told the saints to build a temple. If they did not he said, “ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the lord your God.” (D&C 124:32) Note the words, “as a church, with your dead”. Do you not see that our salvation is tied to the salvation of the entire human race? Where do you see the individualism?

Your work is for INDIVIDUALS, giving them the secret signs and tokens and magical ordinances that an INDIVIDUAL “needs” (in the Mormon POV).

IF you believed that we are saved as a people, then you would understand that salvation is reliant on Jesus Christ, not on a building where you call on spirits of the dead to accept something they don’t need.

 

[KathleenGee]

To say such things as Christ’s teachings, Janderich, is not the truth of what Christ taught.

Smith founded a religion that suits one’s fancy, particularly a man’s lust for pride, power, and greed…the three no’s we are to avoid.

Mormonism is going in the opposite direction as authentic Christian teachings. Note, I did not say people because they are Christian as only those who endure to the end will be saved, and the twilight years are mundane and looking back on one’s life, as Scripture says, life is so short, and all the good we did is only small specks of sand.

 

[KathleenGee]

Livingwaters…you speak of feelings or say the Mormon Doctrines and Covenants, vs Catholic teaching are matter of choice.

It is not. If so, we are reducing faith to relative moralism, which is the tyranny, according to Pope Benedict’, of today’s world of judging things.

Truth and morality suffer because of subjective moralism, where there is no absolute truth.

You essentially and in advertently hit it on the nail: Mormonism is the result of subjective and wishful thinking, but is not based on historical fact or reflective in any way of salvation history.

I read that it is wrong for Mormons to think critically. It is not intended to mean that we go around criticizing other people, this being wrong and uncharitable. Critical thinking is a form of analysis that helps us find what is true and what is false, and to make correct judgments on things.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes, the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that, in God’s infinite mercy, all will have the chance to hear and accept (or reject) the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in this life or the next, whether they lived during the time when that fulness of truth was not present on the earth, or whether it was and they did not hear it.

Yes, but only because God’s law is written in our hearts, not because we get a do-over in the next life. A pigmy in the darkest reaches of the Amazon who has never heard of Jesus Christ still knows that it is wrong to steal, wrong to kill, wrong to lie or cheat, wrong to take another’s wife or belongings. All cultures (except ours, of late) honor their father and mother. God is love. If love exists among a people then God is there. If God is there then Jesus Christ is there. God is not looking for technicalities in which he can punish us. He looks for any and every way to save us. But it is all done in this life. There are no second chances. It is God that measures the love that we carry within us; who knows if we cared for the less fortuntate among us; who knows if we are faithful, and who knows the choice we would make had we heard the Gospel. And we can be sure that this is perfect justice and mercy because it is God who has made it so.

 

[CopticChristian]

Oh my.

LW,

This is sad. Mormons are not Christian. Mormons may look like, sound like, feelike, act like Christians, but sadly they are not. You may sing in the shower, carry a tune, and believe you are Madonna, but you are not.

 

[CopticChristian]

Whether or not the Doctrine and Covenants “means nada to most” is not of concern, since Janderich is explaining what Latter-day Saints believe, correct?

LW,

You are incorrect. The word “feel” appears in the plea but nowhere is it stated, belief

 

[Janderich]

LW,
You are incorrect. The word “feel” appears in the plea but nowhere is it stated, belief

Coptic, LivingWaters is correct. When God gives a direct command with severe consequences LDS seek to obey. Whether I say we “feel” we are under heavens mandate or whether I say we “believe” makes very little difference in this case.

 

[Janderich]

Let’s try this again Janderich.
You are insulting my intelligence here, which tries my patience.

We are not in agreement. Jesus Christ and his Apostles never taught, once, that we would die and continue on in judgment after we are dead. We are judged for THIS life. This life ends when one passes through the gate to the next. Judgment is made. The Mormon teaching of actions after death being judged is wholly made up. It is not scriptural at all. (By scripture, I mean Christian scripture, not Mormon scripture.)

Rebbecca we have already visited this topic in this very thread. I quoted you scripture where Christ went and preached to the dead and I asked you why he then went and preached to them if there was no hope of change. It ended with you giving a rather lame explanation about limbo reserved for some saints and commenting that you had little time to respond (see my post #294).

RebeccaJ:

Your work is for INDIVIDUALS, giving them the secret signs and tokens and magical ordinances that an INDIVIDUAL “needs” (in the Mormon POV).

IF you believed that we are saved as a people, then you would understand that salvation is reliant on Jesus Christ, not on a building where you call on spirits of the dead to accept something they don’t need.

Christ saves everyone who accepts him but he saves them one by one. Do you not see that in a very small way we aid in that salvation through ordinances? If you do not agree I would ask why you present the Eucharist or baptism at all?

 

[PRmerger]

Christ saves everyone who accepts him but he saves them one by one. Do you not see that in a very small way we aid in that salvation through ordinances?

Yes. This is essentially Catholic teaching. Although we don’t use the word “ordinances” as it applies here.

 

[Janderich]

Why are you saying that one must “hear the gospel” in order to be saved at all? Didn’t Jesus Christ do everything that was necessary for everyone to be atoned, as you say? Then why even have ordinances? Why even have preaching? What is the need for any of this? If people don’t need the “church” to be saved, then why was there any need for a restoration?

Cat Herder, It seems like we are not understanding each other. Let me see if this helps… In order to receive the gift of salvation one must hear the gospel, repent, and receive the ordinances. If one does not have sufficient opportunity in this life then he will have an opportunity in the next. In the spirit world the gospel will be preached to those who have never heard it. If they accept the gospel they can then repent and accept baptism. In either case it is the church, found on both sides of the veil, that offers the opportunity of salvation. In either case the same ordinances are required. In either case one must accept and repent.

Perhaps there is confusion regarding Christs atonement. We believe it is two fold:

1. All will be resurrected regardless of the good or bad they have done in this life. The resurrection is a free gift.
2. Those who accept the gospel will be saved in the kingdom of God. This is conditional on a person hearing the gospel, repenting, and receiving ordinances. The atonement does not magically absolve someone of the need to do this. Christ taught this himself, “except ye repent, ye shall in likewise perish.”(Luke 13:3) and again, “Except a man be born of water, and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5)

 

[SteveVH]

Cat Herder, It seems like we are not understanding each other. Let me see if this helps… In order to receive the gift of salvation one must hear the gospel, repent, and receive the ordinances. If one does not have sufficient opportunity in this life then he will have an opportunity in the next.

Interesting. May I ask, if one who believed in this notion decided to ignore God’s commands in this life, knowing he could take care of business later, and lead a life pursuing fleshly desires; sex, drugs, rock and roll, would this have any effect on this person’s eternal destiny?

Catholics are asked this question concerning Confession. Can you just do what ever you want knowing that you can be forgiven in the confessional next week? The answer is no. That would entail a completle lack of contrition and a manipulation of God’s mercy. We must have sorrow, at least to some degree and a repentant heart. So what about the Mormon who spends this life satisfying his every desire and is dependent upon the next life to get it right? Does this life matter at all?

 

[Janderich]

Interesting. May I ask, if one who believed in this notion decided to ignore God’s commands in this life, knowing he could take care of business later, and lead a life pursuing fleshly desires; sex, drugs, rock and roll, would this have any effect on this person’s eternal destiny?

Catholics are asked this question concerning Confession. Can you just do what ever you want knowing that you can be forgiven in the confessional next week? The answer is no. That would entail a completle lack of contrition and a manipulation of God’s mercy. We must have sorrow, at least to some degree and a repentant heart. So what about the Mormon who spends this life satisfying his every desire and is dependent upon the next life to get it right? Does this life matter at all?

This life certainly does have an effect on a persons eternal destiny. One who hears the gospel and has ample opportunity to accept it in mortality will not be given the same opportunity again in the world of spirits. The spirit world is not a time to redo what was purposely left undone. Rather it is an opportunity to accept the gospel when missed in mortality.

 

[SteveVH]

This life certainly does have an effect on a persons eternal destiny. One who hears the gospel and has ample opportunity to accept it in mortality will not be given the same opportunity again in the world of spirits. The spirit world is not a time to redo what was purposely left undone. Rather it is an opportunity to accept the gospel when missed in mortality.

Thanks, that makes a bit more sense, as far as it goes. And what happens to those who reject the opportunity completley?

 

[Janderich]

Thanks, that makes a bit more sense, as far as it goes. And what happens to those who reject the opportunity completely?

I believe those who have every opportunity to accept but ultimately reject the gospel will go to hell, or what we term, outer darkness. However, there will be relatively few who finally do not accept.

 

[SteveVH]

Those who have every opportunity to accept but ultimately reject the gospel will go to hell, or what we term, outer darkness. However, we believe there will be relatively few who finally do not accept.

I don’t know how one could know that but I hope you’re right. Catholic saints have received visions that tell another story.

 

[Porknpie]

I quoted you scripture where Christ went and preached to the dead and I asked you why he then went and preached to them if there was no hope of change.

Jan -

Here’s a link to the catholic encyclopedia on the subject of hell. Christ went into the abode of the dead, those who died justly before his death and he preached the gospel to them as they did not know it. He also opened the gates of heaven for them. This is not the hell of eternal damnation for which there is no hope of getting out.

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Hell