LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[PRmerger]

I do not mean to presuppose what Catholicism teaches, sorry if the wording was poor. In my mind it just seems to be a double standard. I realize others do not see it that way. Thanks for your comments, you have been very decent.

Thank you.

As far as the double standard, you need to understand that much of our (and your) theology must be understood with some nuance.

IOW: you cannot simply take some teachings and let it stand.

For example, a 5 year old child might not understand the nuances of the Catholic Church’s teaching: outside the Church there is no salvation. (EENS–from the Latin,* extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
*
While it is indeed true that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation, that does need to be understood with some nuance. A 5 year old will be literal and say, “Well, then, Jews can’t be saved.”

No. That is not a correct expository on EENS. He understands it only with a 5 year old’s literal thinking.

Similarly, while it is 100% correct to say “Baptism now saves us”, to say: therefore all unbaptized folks go to hell is to have a 5 yr old understanding of Catholicism.

 

[Jerusha]

We are not Protestants. Just like you, we have multiple levels of the afterlife.

 

[PRmerger]

We are not Protestants. Just like you, we have multiple levels of the afterlife.

What do you mean by “multiple levels”, Jerusha? As in heaven, hell and purgatory?

 

[Jerusha]

What do you mean by “multiple levels”, Jerusha? As in heaven, hell and purgatory?

And the non-doctrinal but often discussed limbo. Our God is infinitely just and compassionate.

 

[Stephen168]

Steve,

I don’t believe JS conjures up anger, let alone deep anger. He does conjur up disbelief from Catholics + other Christians that anyone would follow him, based both on who he was as a person and his described theology that most definitely is another Gospel as St. Paul warns us not to follow, from man or an Angel. In this disbelief, Catholics and other Christians are concerned for the souls that follow him. Deeply concerned perhaps.

Yes, when Joseph Smith turned his back on God in 1844 and took all those poor people with him that was another gospel and the apostasy.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,

I don’t believe JS conjures up anger, let alone deep anger. He does conjur up disbelief from Catholics + other Christians that anyone would follow him, based both on who he was as a person and his described theology that most definitely is another Gospel as St. Paul warns us not to follow, from man or an Angel. In this disbelief, Catholics and other Christians are concerned for the souls that follow him. Deeply concerned perhaps.

On the other hand, I believe he was tarred and feathered more than once and run out of town. He had a lot of people who wanted him dead in the end. He must have ticked someone off pretty bad.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jan,

Back at your post where you say there were lapses, again I challenge you to study documented Catholic history where there were no lapses. Catholicism was almost wiped out by the last Roman emperor, of whom Constantine fought and won, but the faith was always there with believers. We have always had ecclesial authority present along with the faithful.

There were no lapses in faith because our faith is centered on the living presence of Christ Who is the source of life in the Church, and He has never left us.

The only time one could say, if Christ were just a man, would be that He left us.

Christ is Truth, Christ is the Son of God, meaning God taking on human form. Truth is eternal and perfect and can only be perceived by us in Christ.

There are no lapses in the Truth.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Kathleen, I think you may have misunderstood my comment. Let me first set up the conditions. For arguments sake let us suppose that the RCC had the ability to save those who heard the gospel. Let us further suppose that no apostasy occurred. The contention seems to be that Jesus would never allow his gospel to be removed from the earth because he wants all people to hear the gospel, including those who lived during the approximately 1800 year period. But of course there is a big logic gap in this line of reasoning. It ignores the many, many people who would still never heard the gospel during that time even if the RCC could save them.

This comment, and most of your other comments, betray the individualism that Mormonism exemplifies (nearly worships I would say).

Catholicism (of any rite) is not individualistic. Christ died for all. We are saved defacto, unworthily, unquestioningly, undeservidly, as a people. The mystery of our salvation lives in Jesus Christ, because He is life. By baptism, we enter into the mystery of Jesus Christ, but this does not negate what Christ has done for all. ALL will be judged by Jesus Christ, according to their heart, as only Christ can do.

Repent and be baptized

 

[Cat_Herder]

But do you not see that even if the truth was on the earth continually since Jesus lived that many people still did not hear it? It appears that it is either a mystery as to how they are saved or that their whole lives boil down to simply saying “yes” to Christ at the judgment bar.To say it is a mystery is to say you don’t know. To say it is a simple “yes” is to make a mockery of those who work so hard here on the earth to be saved.

But what you’re positing is that the true Church supposedly completely disappeared from history, that the true doctrines likewise supposedly disappeared, and that the true “ordinances” supposedly did the same. Of course some people are not going to be saved because they choose not to be saved. But what you’ve set up with your apostasy theory is a scenario in which people don’t even get a choice to be saved because the truth is** NOT AVAILABLE TO THEM,** when 1 Tim 2:3-4 says that it is God’s will for that truth to be available to everyone.

 

[KathleenGee]

JESUS CHRIST IS TRUTH. You enter into the life of Jesus, you are entering into the life of Truth.

Joseph Smith did lead vulnerable people astray

What kind of woman would allow herself to be part of a polygamous marriage? whose husband appears he can never get enough sex from one woman…consider the epistles where it speaks of men who go from house to house to prey on silly women. in no one trumped Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith made up things, using so called materials with their own symbols, from Egypt…the place of idolatry, false materialism, enslavement and exile, to deceive ignorant people.

He was tarred and feathered and shot two people before he was killed in a raucus and fell out a window.

He comes across to us as a charlatan who in no way trumped Jesus Christ Who is truth.

 

[Janderich]

Joseph Smith did lead vulnerable people astray

What kind of woman would allow herself to be part of a polygamous marriage? whose husband appears he can never get enough sex from one woman…consider the epistles where it speaks of men who go from house to house to prey on silly women. in no one trumped Jesus Christ.

Kathleen, You have unfairly cast judgment in the worst possible light before you have understood. You pre-suppose that polygamy occurred due to some rampant male sex drive. I disagree 100%. If you read our history you will see that this is not the case. Most men did not want to practice plural marriage, including Joseph Smith. Nowhere have I ever read that sex was the motivating factor. This is a fabrication you have created. Before you or any others make such statements I would ask you to read first hand sources and find the truth of the matter.

 

[Janderich]

But what you’re positing is that the true Church supposedly completely disappeared from history, that the true doctrines likewise supposedly disappeared, and that the true “ordinances” supposedly did the same. Of course some people are not going to be saved because they choose not to be saved. But what you’ve set up with your apostasy theory is a scenario in which people don’t even get a choice to be saved because the truth is** NOT AVAILABLE TO THEM,** when 1 Tim 2:3-4 says that it is God’s will for that truth to be available to everyone.

You must widen your view. I would guess that of all those who have ever lived fewer then 1/2 ever heard the gospel of Christ. Then as you say above these “people don’t even get a choice to be saved”. This is of course not true, those who did not hear the gospel in mortality will hear it in the spirit world. All will yet hear this gospel.

 

[LivingWaters7]

You must widen your view. I would guess that of all those who have ever lived fewer then 1/2 ever heard the gospel of Christ. Then as you say above these “people don’t even get a choice to be saved”. This is of course not true, those who did not hear the gospel in mortality will hear it in the spirit world. All will yet hear this gospel.

Yes, the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that, in God’s infinite mercy, all will have the chance to hear and accept (or reject) the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in this life or the next, whether they lived during the time when that fulness of truth was not present on the earth, or whether it was and they did not hear it.

 

[Janderich]

This comment, and most of your other comments, betray the individualism that Mormonism exemplifies (nearly worships I would say).

Catholicism (of any rite) is not individualistic. Christ died for all. We are saved defacto, unworthily, unquestioningly, undeservidly, as a people. The mystery of our salvation lives in Jesus Christ, because He is life. By baptism, we enter into the mystery of Jesus Christ, but this does not negate what Christ has done for all. ALL will be judged by Jesus Christ, according to their heart, as only Christ can do.

Repent and be baptized

Rebecca, I’m not sure why you say Mormonism is individualistic. Christ atoned for all. All will be resurrected regardless of what they do and all will have the opportunity to repent and be saved. I do not disagree.

Moreover we feel we are under heavens mandate to perform saving ordinances for all those who have died and may accept this gospel. All who will, must be given the opportunity to be saved. In 1841 the Lord told the saints to build a temple. If they did not he said, “ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the lord your God.” (D&C 124:32) Note the words, “as a church, with your dead”. Do you not see that our salvation is tied to the salvation of the entire human race? Where do you see the individualism?

 

[CopticChristian]

Rebecca, I’m not sure why you say Mormonism is individualistic. Christ atoned for all. All will be resurrected regardless of what they do and all will have the opportunity to repent and be saved. I do not disagree.

Moreover we feel we are under heavens mandate to perform saving ordinances for all those who have died and may accept this gospel. All who will, must be given the opportunity to be saved. In 1841 the Lord told the saints to build a temple. If they did not he said, “ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the lord your God.” (D&C 124:32) Note the words, “as a church, with your dead”. Do you not see that our salvation is tied to the salvation of the entire human race? Where do you see the individualism?

Jan

D&C means nada to most and something to you. Your reasoning is thus rendered Mormon opinion:shrug:

 

[LivingWaters7]

Jan

D&C means nada to most and something to you. Your reasoning is thus rendered Mormon opinion:shrug:

Whether or not the Doctrine and Covenants “means nada to most” is not of concern, since Janderich is explaining what Latter-day Saints believe, correct?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, I’m not sure why you say Mormonism is individualistic.

Of course you don’t.

And I never said anything like I agree that people have the opportunity to repent and be saved AFTER THEY DIE.

…so you know that of course, we are in disagreement. Slippery thinking and slight of hand? I’m really not that stupid.

Why are you being so deceptive?

Moreover we feel we are under heavens mandate to perform saving ordinances for all those who have died and may accept this gospel. All who will, must be given the opportunity to be saved. In 1841 the Lord told the saints to build a temple. If they did not he said, “ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the lord your God.” (D&C 124:32) Note the words, “as a church, with your dead”. Do you not see that our salvation is tied to the salvation of the entire human race? Where do you see the individualism?

Yes, I know what you believe, which is a very individualistic way at looking at things.

Do you remember the man who was healed by the faith of his friends? hmmm. I wonder how that can occur if everything is reliant on oneself?

I pity Mormons. Your God is a jerk.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Of course you don’t.

And I never said anything like I agree that people have the opportunity to repent and be saved AFTER THEY DIE.

…so you know that of course, we are in disagreement. Slippery thinking and slight of hand? I’m really not that stupid.

Why are you being so deceptive?

Yes, I know what you believe, which is a very individualistic way at looking at things.

Do you remember the man who was healed by the faith of his friends? hmmm. I wonder how that can occur if everything is reliant on oneself?

I pity Mormons. Your God is a jerk.

Oh my.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Oh my.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Yes, the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that, in God’s infinite mercy, all will have the chance to hear and accept (or reject) the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in this life or the next, whether they lived during the time when that fulness of truth was not present on the earth, or whether it was and they did not hear it.

You must widen your view. I would guess that of all those who have ever lived fewer then 1/2 ever heard the gospel of Christ. Then as you say above these “people don’t even get a choice to be saved”. This is of course not true, those who did not hear the gospel in mortality will hear it in the spirit world. All will yet hear this gospel.

Why are you saying that one must “hear the gospel” in order to be saved at all? Didn’t Jesus Christ do everything that was necessary for everyone to be atoned, as you say? Then why even have ordinances? Why even have preaching? What is the need for any of this? If people don’t need the “church” to be saved, then why was there any need for a restoration?

Whether or not the Doctrine and Covenants “means nada to most” is not of concern, since Janderich is explaining what Latter-day Saints believe, correct?

Mormonism:
D&C 93:33: “For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;”

Reality:
The elements are NOT eternal and came into being at the Big Bang.

How can anyone call the Doctrine and Covenants “the restored gospel” of Jesus Christ, when they contradict what Jesus Christ has actually made?