LDS View of the Great Apostasy

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Was Mary an exceptional woman? Yes she was. She was the handmaiden of God. The Holy Ghost overshadowed her. She become the mother of the son of God. She was a woman chosen before this life to become such. But she was mortal.
Yes, you are in agreement with the Catholic Church here.
With mortality comes with it the flaws such as death, sin, hope and faith
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Jesus suffered death. Does that mean he was mortal? Is that part of LDS theology?
It has been said here by some that she was perfect. I believe she was not. I believe she sinned, and repented so that she took part in the atonement from the Son she bore.
She could have sinned–she certainly had the free will to do so, but simply chose not to.
 
It does not say she was “perfect” no… but it does say she was “full of grace”.
grace defined by Webster
so through God’s divinity, she was already freed from sin.

Why accept it if you think it’s wrong? What specifically was so important that was left out?
What does full of Grace mean? The truths that are contained in the Bible are wonderful and a blessing to us. But there were many things left out from a book that was brought together with ulterior motives to only bring those writtings that line up with what they were teaching at the time. Because they left them out does not mean that you throw the baby out with the bath water.
 
Yes, you are in agreement with the Catholic Church here.

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Jesus suffered death. Does that mean he was mortal? Is that part of LDS theology?

She could have sinned–she certainly had the free will to do so, but simply chose not to.
His Father was God the Father. His mother was Mary. He was in reality half perfect and half mortal. Here is the problem. If Christ had a perfect body, he would not have died. Because his mother was Mary, he was then subject to death. Because of this linage, had Christ not wanted to die, he would have lived a very long time, but his body was still part mortal. Christ had a choice. He did not have to suffer for us. Even though God’s plan would have had to change, The Father had perfect faith in his Son to carry out his will.
 
CopticChristian;9981349:
Fatboy,

Please clarify

Hard to follow your logic here. Please clarify
Fatboy,

Today my mecanic explained everything he did for my car and we spoke about all that has been done and what I need. We spoke about different kinds of cars that I could buy and he said for the money a Honda Civic was good for mielage…not one word of this was written but I can recall all of it…

You woke up this morning…listened to the news…watched TV about the election…listened to the radio while driving to work…when you got to work…people told you what happened yestereday and what needed to be done today…drove home, called home asked what needed to be picked up for dinner and bought it…

You spoke to your family about the upcoming holidays…Thanksgiving…what it was you might prepare, thought about times past and the good times who was there…

all without a book…

Oral Tradition

We communicate Auditory, Visual, Kinesthetic, Olfactory, Gustatory…and sometimes we put all of this stuff in books…
 
Was Mary an exceptional woman? Yes she was. She was the handmaiden of God. The Holy Ghost overshadowed her. She become the mother of the son of God. She was a woman chosen before this life to become such. But she was mortal. With mortality comes with it the flaws such as death, sin, hope and faith. It has been said here by some that she was perfect. I believe she was not. I believe she sinned, and repented so that she took part in the atonement from the Son she bore.
Fat,

And do you teach and profess that the sinful Mary had carnal relations with the Father that came down from heaven to produce Jesus…and the atonement took place in the garden with the sweating of blood?
 
What does full of Grace mean? The truths that are contained in the Bible are wonderful and a blessing to us. But there were many things left out from a book that was brought together with ulterior motives to only bring those writtings that line up with what they were teaching at the time. Because they left them out does not mean that you throw the baby out with the bath water.
Fat,

Catholic Christianity is not built on the Bible alone, the teachings of the Church appear to have left nothing out…in fact

Oriental Orthodox
Eastern Orthodox

Look quite similar to Catholic Christianity…
 
Fatboys;9991045:
Fatboy,

all without a book…

Oral Tradition

We communicate Auditory, Visual, Kinesthetic, Olfactory, Gustatory…and sometimes we put all of this stuff in books…
Fatboy, it’s the same tradition St Paul speaks of in 2 Thessalonians 2
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours
 
As a Catholic, you are accusing mormons of pulling something out of air? Tea pot calling the Kettle black.
What Doctrines have Catholics pulled out of air? Back up your statement, or retract it.
The bishop interviews them before baptism and determines whether or not they are ready. Someone who is mentally impaired to a age younger than 8 does not require baptism but can still be baptized.
So, a person who has been “called” to be a “bishop”, who has no theological training, psychological training, or medical training, can make a determination about the state of someone’s soul, and determine that baptism isn’t needed? Scary!! :eek:
Was Jesus a God? Is Jesus also the son of God? God is just a term given to a being that has all power and knowledge.
Your statement shows the complete and total lack of understanding of anything Christian.
  1. Jesus is God 2. Jesus is the son of God 3. There is only one God
You have demonstrated by this statement that you believe there are other gods ruling other worlds, and you hope to be one. Scary :eek:

So, have you found anything scriptural that supports age 8 for baptism, or any reference for your 99% statement?
 
Fatboys;9991045:
Fatboy,

Today my mecanic explained everything he did for my car and we spoke about all that has been done and what I need. We spoke about different kinds of cars that I could buy and he said for the money a Honda Civic was good for mielage…not one word of this was written but I can recall all of it…

You woke up this morning…listened to the news…watched TV about the election…listened to the radio while driving to work…when you got to work…people told you what happened yestereday and what needed to be done today…drove home, called home asked what needed to be picked up for dinner and bought it…

You spoke to your family about the upcoming holidays…Thanksgiving…what it was you might prepare, thought about times past and the good times who was there…

all without a book…

Oral Tradition

We communicate Auditory, Visual, Kinesthetic, Olfactory, Gustatory…and sometimes we put all of this stuff in books…
👍
 
Anyway let me try to explain again. Before I start I realize that you do not believe in Joseph Smith. I realize that you feel he was a con man. I do not. So could you please refrain from your little jabs. It ticks me off.
I don’t think I have called Joseph Smith names like con man, so you would have to be more specific about what you think is a ‘jab.’
Baptism at the age of 8. We believe that anyone who can not understand the laws of God or the consequences of disobedience are innocent before God. This is why Christ taught that we are to become like little children to enter into the Kingdom of God. Sinnless. Baptism for us is to wash away our sins. It is to cleanse us from sin. It does not prevent us from continuing to sin but at the moment of baptism we are white as the driven snow. Before the age of 8 a person can not understand enough to be guilty of sin. Now not every child gets baptized at age eight. For instance my youngest son was not ready to be baptized. He was not ready until he was almost 10. But that is not the norm. Some children are ready to be baptized before 8. That is they have a higher level of understanding than their peers. But it is not required until they reach 8. That is when a child begins to understand right from wrong in a more clear way.
Code:
     Another reason for baptism is making covenants with God. That we take upon ourselves the name of Christ. That is we will be his witness of him at all times and in all places. And next is that we will always remember him. No matter what the circumstances are, no matter what we are doing, he is always in our mind and heart. Next is we promise to keep all his commandments to the best of our abilities. So as we come forth from the waters we put on a new person, one that is trying to follow and become more perfect than what we were.
As I had said to Janderich who gave a similar explanation:
None of what you said is a reason to withhold baptism from an infant. Infants will grow after baptism, and being in the covenant, Christ will forgive their future sins.
Catholic baptism is the new circumcision into the New Covenant for the forgiveness of the sin of Adam. The only theological difference between the purpose of Catholic baptism and the purpose of Mormon baptism is which sins are forgiven. We believe it is for original and personal sin and Mormons believe it is for personal sin. Both Churches believe sin can be forgiven after baptism, so why not enter the covenant with Christ and all his graces as soon as possible?

Historically Mormonism came out of the Restoration/Primitivism movement. The Restoration movement held to the 16th century invention of a believer’s baptism. Joseph Smith held on to the ancient purpose of baptism but also adopted the restoration movement’s rejection of infant baptism. So Smith rejected infant baptism with no theological reason for doing so. This makes Mormon baptism irrational.
Baptism is just one example of Joseph Smith making up new beliefs contrary to Christianity.
 
I don’t think I have called Joseph Smith names like con man, so you would have to be more specific about what you think is a ‘jab.’
Yes. I think it should be made clear that the “con man” comment was not made by you.

Rather, it was presented by another Catholic.

As such, it was unwarranted. And uncharitable. And not conducive to fruitful inter-faith dialogue.
 
As a Catholic, you are accusing mormons of pulling something out of air? Tea pot calling the Kettle black.
all power and knowledge.
And could you provide one example of where the CC has pulled something out of the air?
 
I have read that Jesus, who knew the heart of Peter, was not saying that Peter, the movable and unstable stone, would be the immovable rock upon which the Church would be built. Rather, it would be built upon Jesus and it was this truth that Peter had affirmed what he said to Jesus, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” (Matt. 16:16). This is consistent with scripture elsewhere where the term rock is sometimes used in reference of God, but never of a man.

No MAN should ever be the center… it’s God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that is the ROCK and we are the church… all who are Christians are Apostles of Jesus, seeking knowledge, understanding… and speaking, showing and teaching the truth through His commandments. The members of the church have been Apostles, and you needn’t have anyone lay their human hands on you (only God’s spirit onto your heart) to be an Apostle of God. And those who have accepted the gift God has given them - to take on a higher role in the teaching of the Apostolic Church- is a blessing to us all who want to seek knowledge.

👍
 
I have read that Jesus, who knew the heart of Peter, was not saying that Peter, the movable and unstable stone, would be the immovable rock upon which the Church would be built. Rather, it would be built upon Jesus and it was this truth that Peter had affirmed what he said to Jesus, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” (Matt. 16:16). This is consistent with scripture elsewhere where the term rock is sometimes used in reference of God, but never of a man.

No MAN should ever be the center… it’s God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that is the ROCK and we are the church… all who are Christians are **Apostles **of Jesus, seeking knowledge, understanding… and speaking, showing and teaching the truth through His commandments. The members of the church have been Apostles, and you needn’t have anyone lay their human hands on you (only God’s spirit onto your heart) to be an Apostle of God. And those who have accepted the gift God has given them - to take on a higher role in the teaching of the Apostolic Church- is a blessing to us all who want to seek knowledge.

👍
:thumbsup:This would be Disciples:thumbsup:
 
As a Catholic, you are accusing mormons of pulling something out of air? Tea pot calling the Kettle black.
I urge you to do a little more looking around here or Catholic Answers, or just into history. The Catholic Church can point to a continuity of evidence from Scripture, history, tradition, writings of the ECFs, and other sources I’ve mentioned before to demonstrate each an every one of its teachings. Because it has continuity and other objective measures of its truth, it differs from every group started at a later date.
The bishop interviews them before baptism and determines whether or not they are ready. Someone who is mentally impaired to a age younger than 8 does not require baptism but can still be baptized.
So the reasons that make it wrong to baptize a child younger than 8 don’t apply to the developmentally disabled?
That number really is arbitrary, then, and totally meaningless. You can’t even use the appelation “Age of Reason,” because you’ve just said that the very level of “understanding” that you’re requiring isn’t actually necessary–for the developmentally disabled.

So it’s not about reason at all. It’s apparently not about sin at all. It’s only about a number.
I’m so glad that God is more generous, reasonable, and practical than that.
 
I have read that Jesus, who knew the heart of Peter, was not saying that Peter, the movable and unstable stone, would be the immovable rock upon which the Church would be built. Rather, it would be built upon Jesus and it was this truth that Peter had affirmed what he said to Jesus, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” (Matt. 16:16). This is consistent with scripture elsewhere where the term rock is sometimes used in reference of God, but never of a man.
Both And. Jesus renamed Simon for a reason. That He could use a Galilean fisherman who would betray Him to be the “Prince of the Apostles,” as the ECFs called him, is consistent with so much of the rest of Salvation History where God uses the weak to undo the mighty. It is a sign of God’s power that He can use the lowly for great purposes; indeed, it is a powerful proof, for if God only choose mighty figures like Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar to work great things, people could easily look at those works and say they were done by great men.

But when Jesus selects a brash Galilean fisherman to be the sign of unity and “prime minister” of His Church, he proves that indeed it is HE who will build His Church–for this poor guy could never do it of his own account, only with the power of Christ.

That Jesus sets him up with the enduring legacy of his office that his very name indicates, He further proves His own might, that He continues to build His Church the same way He started, on the same rock and foundation that He started.

And that brings us back to the problem of apostasy theories :). You can’t say the Church failed without saying that Jesus failed. He failed to build His Church. He had to start over, abandon the rock and foundation. The title and sign of Peter didn’t mean anything, for the man and his legacy was ultimately broken and cast aside.
No MAN should ever be the center… it’s God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that is the ROCK and we are the church… all who are Christians are Apostles of Jesus, seeking knowledge, understanding… and speaking, showing and teaching the truth through His commandments. The members of the church have been Apostles, and you needn’t have anyone lay their human hands on you (only God’s spirit onto your heart) to be an Apostle of God. And those who have accepted the gift God has given them - to take on a higher role in the teaching of the Apostolic Church- is a blessing to us all who want to seek knowledge.
Coptic made a good correction. I’d also point out, since it was in response to a previous accusation against the Church, that we DO have ordained “apostles.” In English we call them “bishops” (as in Acts 1:20, “let his bishopric another take”). In Greek, episcopoi.
 
I urge you to do a little more looking around here or Catholic Answers, or just into history. The Catholic Church can point to a continuity of evidence from Scripture, history, tradition, writings of the ECFs, and other sources I’ve mentioned before to demonstrate each an every one of its teachings. Because it has continuity and other objective measures of its truth, it differs from every group started at a later date.
Lets take one of the traditions that you teach. The birth of Christ is the most important event that has ever happened to the fallen man. If the importance of Christ being born without original sin was so important, and your logic dictates that this must mean that Mary must likewise be born without the original sin, they why is this not mentioned in any of the scriptures. Nothing, notta. It was never taught by Christ, nor his apostles.
So the reasons that make it wrong to baptize a child younger than 8 don’t apply to the developmentally disabled?
That number really is arbitrary, then, and totally meaningless. You can’t even use the appelation “Age of Reason,” because you’ve just said that the very level of “understanding” that you’re requiring isn’t actually necessary–for the developmentally disabled.
It makes sense as science as confirmed that children at this time has a better understanding of right and wrong for the most part.
So it’s not about reason at all. It’s apparently not about sin at all. It’s only about a number.
I’m so glad that God is more generous, reasonable, and practical than that.
A person who does not have the capacity to know right from wrong does not need baptism. It is not about a number, it is about the sacrifice of Christ to save those who have died without knowledge who have not been baptized.
 
Fatboys;9991045:
Fatboy,

Today my mecanic explained everything he did for my car and we spoke about all that has been done and what I need. We spoke about different kinds of cars that I could buy and he said for the money a Honda Civic was good for mielage…not one word of this was written but I can recall all of it…

You woke up this morning…listened to the news…watched TV about the election…listened to the radio while driving to work…when you got to work…people told you what happened yestereday and what needed to be done today…drove home, called home asked what needed to be picked up for dinner and bought it…

You spoke to your family about the upcoming holidays…Thanksgiving…what it was you might prepare, thought about times past and the good times who was there…

all without a book…

Oral Tradition

We communicate Auditory, Visual, Kinesthetic, Olfactory, Gustatory…and sometimes we put all of this stuff in books…
Have you ever played the game where a group of you sit in a circle and one person whispers something in the person sitting next to them and then they do and so on until it goes all around the circle. The last person recites what was told to them via all the others that it has gone through. I have played this many times, and never is it word for word what was told to the first person. Oral tradition is better than none, but is by far less reliable that written text.
 
It makes sense as science as confirmed that children at this time has a better understanding of right and wrong for the most part.
Then you shouldn’t have any problems providing a source for this statement.

You know, the more you make these definitive statements without anything to support them, the less credible you look right?
 
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