LDS View of the Great Apostasy

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I took many classes in crop production and if I applied what I learned in college as how to raise crops I would have went broke. What they taught and how to make it work in the real world is two different things. There were good common sense things they taught, but had I never farmed before and just relied on what was taught, as the gospel so to speak, it would have been a short lived living. I’m sure you know what I am speaking about.
Fat -

Remember that the written Word comes from Church through Tradition that has been handed down. Christ said to go out and preach the good news not write it down. The Church canonized in written form what had been “taught” through the first ~370 years, but not all things are written as St. Paul says to hold onto all things both written and spoken. The fullness of the Word is contain in both the bible + tradition.

Regarding our PM conversation…God creates good things out bad…good out of evil…again, perhaps you being here is the good out of what’s happened in your family. It’s something to pray about…I continue to give you a lot of credit. Pork.
 
“The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.”

Both baptism of desire and blood came about in the first centuries of the Church. As catechumens who were preparing for baptism were martyred, they had both, the desire for baptism, and were martyred for Christ.

As has already been explained, God is not bound by the Sacraments, they are for our benefit not His. We believe in God’s Mercy. We believe God recognizes the desire of a person’s heart, and judges them according to this desire. Those who died with the desire for baptism, which was not obtained because of circumstance, know God’s Mercy.

Those whose blood is joined to Christ by martyrdom, know God’s Mercy.

To believe otherwise, is to me, rather Pharisaical.

What I’m hearing Mormons say is, "Oh great, you had the desire to be baptized, and you died for Christ, but hey, because you died before you could realize your desire for baptism… buzz …you failed.

Just more of a belief about a cruel God, unable to show Mercy and Forgiveness.
 
Yes, and I do not understand it. This would mean that those who have no knowledge of Christ are in a far better position of salvation than those who have knowledge.
No, Fatboys.

Those who have no knowledge of Christ are in a very vulnerable position. Which makes evangelization an imperative.
 
If one may receive baptism by blood and another by desire yet neither receives baptism of water nor by a person holding the priesthood of God I conclude these two are not required. Correct me where you see the mistake.
Baptism IS “required”*. Either baptism by blood, desire, or water.

*here, of course, we mean it is the normative means for which we are joined to His Body.

So there is no Church teaching that says we do not need to be baptized. That is an incorrect explication of Catholic dogma.
 
“The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.”

Both baptism of desire and blood came about in the first centuries of the Church. As catechumens who were preparing for baptism were martyred, they had both, the desire for baptism, and were martyred for Christ.
Interesting Rebecca you note that baptism by blood and baptism by desire came about in the first centuries of the church. While one cannot fault the sincerity, this simply indicates how certain circumstances and misunderstanding of doctrine create false tradition.
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RebeccaJ:
As has already been explained, God is not bound by the Sacraments, they are for our benefit not His. We believe in God’s Mercy. We believe God recognizes the desire of a person’s heart, and judges them according to this desire. Those who died with the desire for baptism, which was not obtained because of circumstance, know God’s Mercy.

Those whose blood is joined to Christ by martyrdom, know God’s Mercy.

To believe otherwise, is to me, rather Pharisaical.

What I’m hearing Mormons say is, "Oh great, you had the desire to be baptized, and you died for Christ, but hey, because you died before you could realize your desire for baptism… buzz …you failed.

Just more of a belief about a cruel God, unable to show Mercy and Forgiveness.
I think you are twisting what I am saying. I have not denied God’s mercy and forgiveness. Instead I have questioned the forms and the authority.

It is clear that at some point baptisms for the dead were lost in the church (see 1 Cor 15:29). Tradition and oral history failed and other forms of baptism were brought into being. Because I deny these types of baptisms does not mean I deny mercy.
 
Im saying that those who teach have never farmed in their life and have no idea for the most part what is real and what is book learned.
Fat,

I have explained to you why I asked if you went to college and again I ask you to look at what you write above and what you write below.
If one is to have faith in the Bible and the Bible especially if they believe that the bible is infalliable, are going to have an unrealistic view that there can be no mistakes made in oral traditions. But the jewish oral traditions were rejected by Christ because they did not line up with the written.
What you think you know and what you have been taught are in contradistinction to other thought and there is a reason.

Another area that you may want to consider as you look in the world is this. You farm. Did you read it in a book. You say that book learning and what is real differ. I am not sure what you are trying to say however you make a distinction from what is in a book and other sources of learning.

A tenet of General Semantics, Alfred Korzybski, shows that humans do what is called “time binding” or taking information from the past and building on it, using it and incorporating it for the present and for the future. What you know about Farming is a culmination of past experience, success and failure. You have to agree with me.

Next look at the articles that I provided you on Oral Tradition and think about what those not interested in Mormon thought or Christian thought say…

A simpleton would teach and translate information about how reading and speaking are different and how they are not the same. A scholar says this.
The complex relationship between spoken word and written word was recognized and commented on in the first century CE Mediterranean world. Quintilian observed that **writing, reading, and speaking “are so intimately and inseparably connected **that if one of them be neglected, we shall waste the labour which we have devoted to the others” (Institutio oratoria X. 1.2, from Butler 1980).
To differentiate and deny one is to deny that we communicate. Here you are reading my typing, formed by my thoughts from memory and imagination and synthesized for you to read and formulate a thought that you can then speak of to another person. They are processes in communication. Communication involves all aspects not just one.

These articles provided also say this…
This essay examines evidence for the interplay of memory recall and written technology in ancient Israel and surrounding cultures.1
Early education for the Jews and Christians was memory. They memorized everything and then transcribed some but not all. You neglect the element of memory. You and every other human on this planet has only two sources of information in their head, memory/stored information and imagination.

The notion of the apostacy is not consistent with reality because it ignores fact. The authors point this out.
One feature these three phenomena of oral-written transmission have in common is the overall focus of ancient tradents on preservation of written words from the past. **Usually, this meant that they reproduced traditions with virtually no change. **To be sure, as we have seen, such reproduction without change could include a variety of memory variants: changes of wording, order, or non-significant shifts in grammar or syntax. **And graphically copied traditions could include various copyists’ errors. Nevertheless, if we are to look empirically at the documented transmission of ancient texts, the first and most important thing to emphasize is the following: the vast majority of cases involve reproduction of earlier traditions with no shifts beyond the memory or graphic shifts surveyed so far. At the least, tradents aimed for preservation of the semantic content of traditions. **Often, with time, traditions such as the later Mesopotamian and Jewish traditions developed various techniques for insuring more precise preservation of the tradition, often through processes of graphic copying and various techniques of proofing copies.
Scholars point out that there was preservation through memory and the only shifts included non-significant shifts in grammar or context but preservation of the semantic contents that dispels your notion that the changes were of such a magnitude that the Bible as you say is changed so much that the message required a man with a hat to provide a new and other message.

Your notion of the apostasy and changes is remedial and swallowed by other than those that have a penchant for fact and Scholarship and holds no water.🙂
 
Baptism IS “required”*. Either baptism by blood, desire, or water.

*here, of course, we mean it is the normative means for which we are joined to His Body.

So there is no Church teaching that says we do not need to be baptized. That is an incorrect explication of Catholic dogma.
My argument is not that the Catholic church denies the need for baptism. Rather it is that the Catholic church does not recognize the absolute necessity for authority of the priesthood or baptism by water.
 
My argument is not that the Catholic church denies the need for baptism. Rather it is that the Catholic church does not recognize the absolute necessity for authority of the priesthood or baptism by water.
Jan,

The Catholic Church admits the need for Baptism.

The Catholic Church does not recognize the absolute necessity for authority of the Priesthood.

The Catholic Church does not recognize the absolute necessity of baptism by water.

Is this what you are saying…?
 
Interesting Rebecca you note that baptism by blood and baptism by desire came about in the first centuries of the church. While one cannot fault the sincerity, this simply indicates how certain circumstances and misunderstanding of doctrine create false tradition.
Or, the Holy Spirit guiding our understanding of the Sacraments. Something Mormons seem to be lacking. It’s all about checking off the right boxes for you.

Christ’s Authority rests in His Church, which isn’t the church of Joseph Smith.
I think you are twisting what I am saying. I have not denied God’s mercy and forgiveness. Instead I have questioned the forms and the authority.
Coming from someone who baptizes with the wrong intent, based on belief in a false God, I can’t say I see your point.

The form of the baptism has what intent? Isn’t it to be joined to Christ? If one has this intention before they die, but die before it is able to happen, by who’s authority and form do you think it is done? I hope you could think this through and realize, it is God’s. Not yours by virtue of who you think you are.
It is clear that at some point baptisms for the dead were lost in the church (see 1 Cor 15:29).
It is clear that baptism for the dead was never a practice of the Church. Paul gave it as an example of people who were performing it, as an example of their faith. You cannot show where it was ever an Apostolic teaching or practice. And you can’t show that the people who were doing these baptisms had any kind of authority, as you imagine.

Our faith is, a person who desired baptism but was not able to realize this desire, is baptized by this desire.

You seem to have a problem with our faith, but not those whose faith prompted them to baptize the dead. What difference do you see?
Tradition and oral history failed and other forms of baptism were brought into being. Because I deny these types of baptisms does not mean I deny mercy.
You deny both mercy and faith, and make assertions that show clearly, you lack an understanding of both.

Faith in “authority” is neither faith or mercy.
 
Interesting Rebecca you note that baptism by blood and baptism by desire came about in the first centuries of the church. While one cannot fault the sincerity, this simply indicates how certain circumstances and misunderstanding of doctrine create false tradition.

I think you are twisting what I am saying. I have not denied God’s mercy and forgiveness. Instead I have questioned the forms and the authority.

**It is clear that at some point baptisms for the dead were lost in the church (see 1 Cor 15:29). **Tradition and oral history failed and other forms of baptism were brought into being. Because I deny these types of baptisms does not mean I deny mercy.
Jan,

No, what is clear is that you do not understand what you pluck out for your own understanding. The Mormons say that the Bible is corrupt, yet here, you pluck one sentence out and ignore the greater understanding. This is very Protestant of you. You ignore what preceeded this sentence…
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
Paul is making a point. This is explained by John Chrysostom…
As thus: after the enunciation of those mystical and fearful words, and the awful rules of the doctrines which have come down from heaven, this also we add at the end when we are about to baptize, bidding them say, I believe in the resurrection of the dead, and upon this faith we are baptized. For after we have confessed this together with the rest, then at last are we let down into the fountain of those sacred streams. This therefore Paul recalling to their minds said, if there be no resurrection, why are you then baptized for the dead ?
and if you continue reading after the sentence you plucked to bolster your invented belief, as per Jo Smith…
35But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36You fool!
The whole point is that Baptism is for the living, for if the dead die and are never given new life, then the Baptism is for the dead, but not so and he points that out…

think again…👍
 
Jan,

The Catholic Church admits the need for Baptism.

The Catholic Church does not recognize the absolute necessity for authority of the Priesthood.

The Catholic Church does not recognize the absolute necessity of baptism by water.

Is this what you are saying…?
Yes.
 
I took many classes in crop production and if I applied what I learned in college as how to raise crops I would have went broke. What they taught and how to make it work in the real world is two different things. There were good common sense things they taught, but had I never farmed before and just relied on what was taught, as the gospel so to speak, it would have been a short lived living. I’m sure you know what I am speaking about.
Are you saying your formal education on farming was wrong or incomplete?
 
Jan,

Explain what you believe about the necessity for the authority of the priesthood and what this issue as you understand it represents.

Explain what you believe about the absolute necessity for water baptism and what issue as you understand it represents.
 
My argument is not that the Catholic church denies the need for baptism. Rather it is that the Catholic church does not recognize the absolute necessity for authority of the priesthood or baptism by water.
The Catholic Church recognizes the absolute authority to make Christ present in the Eucharist; it just is not necessary for baptism.
The Eucharist is a well documented teaching of Christ and his Church which has been rejected by most Protestants and Mormonism. This rejection came about due to Mormons not having priesthood authority.
 
Jan,

No, what is clear is that you do not understand what you pluck out for your own understanding. The Mormons say that the Bible is corrupt, yet here, you pluck one sentence out and ignore the greater understanding. This is very Protestant of you. You ignore what preceded this sentence…

Paul is making a point. This is explained by John Chrysostom…

and if you continue reading after the sentence you plucked to bolster your invented belief, as per Jo Smith…

The whole point is that Baptism is for the living, for if the dead die and are never given new life, then the Baptism is for the dead, but not so and he points that out…

think again…👍
I think you have missed the point of the chapter. It is not as you say to show that “Baptism is for the living” but instead Paul’s intent is to prove that Christ rose from the dead and that in so doing, gained victory over death. In verse 12 he acknowledges the false belief of some that Christ did not rise from the dead. He says:
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
He goes on to explain the importance of the resurrection. Then to cement his point, that Christ did indeed rise from the dead, he says:
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Paul here gives baptism for the dead as supporting evidence for the resurrection. Unless baptisms for the dead were commonly accepted why would he give it as evidence for the resurrection?

A correct reading of this chapter more fully supports the fact that the early church recognized baptisms for the dead.
 
It isn’t showing support of baptizing for the dead. Paul says “they” are baptizing for the dead, not “we”. He gives it as an example of faith in the resurrection of the dead. NOT as a practice of the Church.
 
Jan,

Explain what you believe about the necessity for the authority of the priesthood and what this issue as you understand it represents.
Christ’s church is one of order. From the beginning He has established a pattern in which saving ordnances must be received. They must be received from one holding the priesthood of God. For, “no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.” (Heb 5:4). To say that a saving ordinance could be received by anyone without authority is to deny the order Christ has established. Baptism of desire and by blood deny this order. It takes priesthood out of the equation and puts in it’s place nothing but mystery. It creates confusion where there was clarity. Questions such as, “did ____, who died have the right desire?” are found unanswered. Such confusion never has been and never will be part of the true church.
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CopticChristian:
Explain what you believe about the absolute necessity for water baptism and what issue as you understand it represents.
Christ confirmed this requirement when he told Nicodemus, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5). There is no ambiguity in this statement. Jesus did not say, “one good way to enter the kingdom may be water and the spirit except in these situations…” Instead it is clear and concise, one must be born of water and spirit to enter the kingdom. The Book of Mormon confirms this requirement, "For the gate by which [we] should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of [our] sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And then are [we] in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life” (2 Nephi 31:17–18)
 
It isn’t showing support of baptizing for the dead. Paul says “they” are baptizing for the dead, not “we”. He gives it as an example of faith in the resurrection of the dead. NOT as a practice of the Church.
So you believe that Paul was holding up a heretical practice to confirm the reality of the resurrection?
 
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