LDS View of the Great Apostasy

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Fatboys said:
The Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.

When there is new doctrine or changes or new revelations it is give to the prophet, he councils with this councilors and in unity agree whether or not this is a right change or understanding. They then present it to the Council of the Twelve apostles. They have to all agree, no can disagree. Then it is presented on down the line of authority until it is presented to the general membership of the church. It is then voted on by the general membership as to whether or not this is going to be a binding law or doctrine. If someone votes in the negative, it is not binding on them. These people are interview to get the reasons why. Questions are asked answers given. If the still want to vote negative, that is their right. It then becomes part of the doctrine and canon of scriptures. The God being a man, or heavenly mother has never been even addressed or presented. We do not know enough to do so. So it is a teaching. It is not binding on us as doctrine.
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Fats,

Is this the definition doctrine in LDS ?
Doctrine (from Latin: doctrina) is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system. The Greek analogue is the etymology of catechism.[1]
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Is there a list of all doctrine from the books you mentioned…so all LDS are on the “same page” as to what the LDS church body of teachings are?
 
Fatboys said:
Perhaps you missed what I have said about twenty times, okay a few. It was a teaching. It was a talk given by Joseph Smith. It is not doctrine that is binding on us as a people. And Brigham Young never said that Mary had sex with God. And I believe that God has a body of Flesh and bone as tangible as mans although it is glorified and perfect like his only begotten Son who was resurrected into his. And I have spent years studying my faith. And did you come up with all these things by your self? You are amazing.
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And your are a “fill in the blank”. So what does doctrine mean?
doctrine
Definition
doc·trine dóktrin ]doc·trines Plural

NOUN
  1. rule or principle: a rule or principle that forms the basis of a belief, theory, or policy
  2. ideas taught as truth: a body of ideas, particularly in religion, taught to people as truthful or correct
    14th century. Directly or via French < Latin doctrina “teaching, learning” < doctor (see doctor) ]
    doc·tri·nal ADJECTIVE
    doc·tri·nal·i·ty NOUN
    doc·tri·nal·ly ADVERB
Oh look, its a teaching. Maybe you need to study more about what words mean before opening your mouth. You are a typical mormon.
 
So what ever the previous prophets said have no meaning or bearing Fat? It seems very common among mormons that are given proof their prophets said something wrong that all of a sudden they either didnt say it or its made up.
 
Fats…

Your Mormon texts contradict Sacred Scripture, anthropology, and the very words of Christ Himself…as I had pointed out to you earlier, in regards to no marriage in heaven.

The apostles warned us not to listen to any angel and to not change one word of Sacred Scripture unless he be as anathema.

Christ Himself appointed His apostles before the appointed time. Christ did not chose an unknown angel to reveal Himself in a future entering practically beyond 2 milleniums after His life, death and resurrection.
 
kimg901 said:
So what ever the previous prophets said have no meaning or bearing Fat? It seems very common among mormons that are given proof their prophets said something wrong that all of a sudden they either didnt say it or its made up.
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Apparently, even when the prophet and all the apostles make a solemn declaration it has no real meaning. It seems they really just don’t know.
 
Fatboys said:
No we vote on whether it is binding on us as doctrine. We are give free agency to choose. It would make sense that we vote in the positive since it was given through a prophet, but we don’t have to do this, and some haven’t.
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And so what are the consequences of one not accepting a certain doctrine as binding upon themselves? Are there any spiritual consequences or can one pick and choose what is sin and what is not?

If I do not live according to the doctrines of my Church then I am in sin. The doctrines are based upon revealed truth from the Almighty God. They are not based upon human opinion or imagination. That is why our doctrines can never change. Truth can never conflict with truth. To believe that one can pick and choose which of God’s truths will be binding upon them is… I guess, just really sad.

Maybe you should define what you mean by the word “doctrine”. Because if it is even close to the meaning I have given then you really need to re-think your position.
 
Fatboys said:
And Brigham Young never said that Mary had sex with God.
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Yeah, actually he did. It’s recorded in the Journal of Discourses.“I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said he did, and begat the Saviour of the world; for he is the only-begotten of the Father, which could not be if the Father did not actually beget him in person.”-Journal of Discourses Vol.1, page 238

“When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven… Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, and be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties.”-Journal of Discourses Vol. 1 pgs. 50-51

“The Father came down and begat him, the same as we do now…”-Discourses of Brigham Young.

Bruce McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith, Orson Pratt, and Heber C Kimball also believed that God had physical relations with Mary (I studied Mormonism for many years when I was in it too. And since my family is generations deep, I have access to the older books that weren’t “sanatized” by the Brethren.)

Just because you don’t teach them now, doesn’t mean they were never taught, or believed.

to close, here is another Brother Brigham brag:“I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom…I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually.”-JofD chapter 13 page 95
 
Defining mormon doctrine is like trying to nail jello to a wall.

We’ve all heard that before haven’t we?
 
SteveVH said:
Maybe you should define what you mean by the word “doctrine”. Because if it is even close to the meaning I have given then you really need to re-think your position.
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Steve, that’s where I went to in post 619… Does doctrine mean the same thing? I would assume so. I’m confused.

“Rebecca!”
 
Fatboys said:
The fact that Paul wrote letters of correction is proof of an apostacy taking place. I will get back to you on a reference to the other.
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Fat,

What apostasy is proven in the letter to the Romans that Paul wrote? What is it he was writing to correct?
 
Fatboys said:
Really, were the jews in apostacy when Christ was on the earth? Was Jesus weak, or cruel? And he was with the apostles till their end. The church did not fail, men failed the church.
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Fat,

If you accept that men failed the Church immediately after Christ’s departure then what is the assurance that whatever it is you call a Church does not have the same problem?
 
CopticChristian said:
Fat,

What apostasy is proven in the letter to the Romans that Paul wrote? What is it he was writing to correct?
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There is none. Well maybe in the KJV, Mormon Edition. But fatboy has nothing to back his crazy lies on. Yes fat, they are lies that have been told to you. Are you a liar? No. So dont get your panties in a bunch.
 
Janderich said:
Let me give a few quotes about this topic of the great apostasy. I am under no delusion that it will convince anyone who is set in their mind. Also, it is not my purpose to attack but simply to provide evidence in support of the LDS on this topic. That being said, most LDS faithful would not say that written history is the ultimate cause for their belief in the apostasy but would rather site the word of the Lord given to Joseph Smith when he asked which church to join. The Lord answered by saying that he should join none of them “for they were all wrong” (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

Few, including myself, think that the apostasy was a one time event. There clearly is no “date” to say, “here is when it occurred”. It is also clear that even in the midst of an apostasy many good people will remain who see errors in the church but may not recognize an apostasy has occurred. Indeed we believe Joseph Smith did not know that there had been an apostasy until after his first vision. That being said, there is yet evidence. For instance, here are two quotes for early church fathers pointing to the fact.

Ignatius here claims he is the last of the faithful in Antioch even though according to what I have read this was a large Christian city. To what is he referring and why would he say he is the last of the faithful?

Cyril after quoting from 2 Thes 2:3-10 wherein Paul says, “for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first” goes on to say:

Why is the church “filled with heretics”? Why does Cyril link these heretics to 2 Thes 2:3-10, which discusses a falling away?
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Jan,

This is a good point. Augustine was the Bishop of Hippo over run by Arians. The over running by Arians does not change the fact that until then Hippos was Catholic through and through. In fact all the Churches that were over run by others, lets say Muslims have archeologic evidence of their existence and those beliefs are consistent with beliefs of today. Falling away does not indicate apostasy.

Do you claim that Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists are apostate as well?
 
Porknpie said:
Steve, that’s where I went to in post 619… Does doctrine mean the same thing? I would assume so. I’m confused.

“Rebecca!”
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Sorry, I missed that somehow. 👍 You know what they say about great minds… I would not assume anything when it comes to Mormon definitions of terms which are commonly used and understood by the rest of humanity. As I said, if the Mormon definition is the same then choosing the doctrines to which you will be bound and those to which you will not be bound is a new one for me. I thought I had heard them all by now.
 
batman1973 said:
Yeah, actually he did. It’s recorded in the Journal of Discourses.“I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said he did, and begat the Saviour of the world; for he is the only-begotten of the Father, which could not be if the Father did not actually beget him in person.”-Journal of Discourses Vol.1, page 238

“When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven… Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, and be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties.”-Journal of Discourses Vol. 1 pgs. 50-51

“The Father came down and begat him, the same as we do now…”-Discourses of Brigham Young.

Bruce McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith, Orson Pratt, and Heber C Kimball also believed that God had physical relations with Mary (I studied Mormonism for many years when I was in it too. And since my family is generations deep, I have access to the older books that weren’t “sanatized” by the Brethren.)

Just because you don’t teach them now, doesn’t mean they were never taught, or believed.

to close, here is another Brother Brigham brag:“I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom…I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually.”-JofD chapter 13 page 95
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Have you ever read the Journal of Discourses? I have. If you think that statements taken out of context is truth, then I am not going to change your mind. You have already closed it. I will say that if you read it in context, it would make more sense to you. Do you want me to go to the trouble and effort to give you the full context or not. And no where does it say that he had sex with Mary.
 
kimg901 said:
There is none. Well maybe in the KJV, Mormon Edition. But fatboy has nothing to back his crazy lies on. Yes fat, they are lies that have been told to you. Are you a liar? No. So dont get your panties in a bunch.
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So what you are saying is that I have been saying things here that I know are false, with the intent to decieve? Hummm. That is a very strong statement and doesn’t this go against forum rules? If not it should. You need to retract this or face the possibility of having a infraction against you. I certainly do not what that to happen.
 
Fatboys said:
So what you are saying is that I have been saying things here that I know are false, with the intent to decieve? Hummm. That is a very strong statement and doesn’t this go against forum rules? If not it should. You need to retract this or face the possibility of having a infraction against you. I certainly do not what that to happen.
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Taught by more than one “prophet”. But does it matter if it is doctrine or not? That the idea would even be speculated on is bad enough.

Other than that, Mormons believe what their prophets teach them. What don’t you believe today, that is being taught by Pres. Monson, and will be “opinion” tomorrow?
 
Porknpie said:
Fats,

Is this the definition doctrine in LDS ?

Is there a list of all doctrine from the books you mentioned…so all LDS are on the “same page” as to what the LDS church body of teachings are?
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Do you feel I am not on the same page as other LDS?
 
Im truly sorry for the panties thing. I let my fingers get the best of me.
 
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