LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Perfect illustration of one of the MAJOR problems with mormonism.

Everybody has their own “opinion” on everything. Their really isn’t any centralized teaching.

Tell that to D. Michael Quinn and the rest of the Mormon liberal academics who were excommunicated.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Constantine as the bogey man of the restorationists is a ridiculous straw man and ad ignorantum to boot. Just about every major “Catholic” belief that Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or Protestants disagree with was held and believed before 318 AD. The only one I can think of that was explicitly taught after Constantine was the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin

 

[Adamski]

Very basic why I reject lds right away

Jesus and the Jewish people were and are monotheistic And all Christians are

Lds is polytheistic

Read the dideche written in 70ad
John died in 95ad

There is zero chance of the lds claims history proves all of the catholic church

 

[Fatboys]

Documentation please.

Documentation please.

I

The fact that Paul wrote letters of correction is proof of an apostacy taking place. I will get back to you on a reference to the other.

 

[Fatboys]

It seems that Janderich has proved Fatboy wrong when Fatboy claimed Constantine became Christian because Constantine was:

I did not claim that he became a Christian. I said that he could see that Christianity was a great unifying force. That he gave back rights to christians that they had not enjoyed, and favored them in many ways because of what he could see as a way to unify the kingdom even though he did not live according to chritianity as has been pointed out. And I did not say that the apostacy started at this time. I started before the death of the apostles.

 

[TexanKnight]

The fact that Paul wrote letters of correction is proof of an apostacy taking place. I will get back to you on a reference to the other.

Using that theory, when the First Presidency send letters of correction to Bishops of a ward, or to a Stake President, does that mean there is a total apostasy in the LDS Church?

Jesus told Peter that His Church would NEVER fail. He told the Apostles that He would would be with them till the ends of the earth. In Ephesians 3, Paul says that "to Him be the glory in the CHURCH and in Christ Jesus to ALL Generations forever and ever…

That seems pretty clear that there was no TOTAL apostasy. No verse in the Bible says there will be a TOTAL apostasy. Certainly not one that too tough for Jesus to overcome.

Jesus does not lie. Jesus is not weak. Jesus is not cruel. He would have to be all three of these for a TOTAL apostasy to have taken place.

 

[Fatboys]

Using that theory, when the First Presidency send letters of correction to Bishops of a ward, or to a Stake President, does that mean there is a total apostasy in the LDS Church?

Jesus told Peter that His Church would NEVER fail. He told the Apostles that He would would be with them till the ends of the earth. In Ephesians 3, Paul says that "to Him be the glory in the CHURCH and in Christ Jesus to ALL Generations forever and ever…

That seems pretty clear that there was no TOTAL apostasy. No verse in the Bible says there will be a TOTAL apostasy. Certainly not one that too tough for Jesus to overcome.

Jesus does not lie. Jesus is not weak. Jesus is not cruel. He would have to be all three of these for a TOTAL apostasy to have taken place.

Really, were the jews in apostacy when Christ was on the earth? Was Jesus weak, or cruel? And he was with the apostles till their end. The church did not fail, men failed the church.

 

[TexanKnight]

Really, were the jews in apostacy when Christ was on the earth? Was Jesus weak, or cruel? And he was with the apostles till their end. The church did not fail, men failed the church.

Wrong. IF the Church is led by Jesus, he would never let men destroy anything. And your poit about the Jews is invalid. Jesus came to help them. Jesus was Jewish. As were the original Apostles, Your argument is a red herring and it dodges, understandably, my point.

 

[JustaServant]

The fact that Paul wrote letters of correction is proof of an apostacy taking place.** I will get back to you on a reference to the other**.

Another week?

 

[zaffiroborant]

The fact that Paul wrote letters of correction is proof of an apostacy taking place. I will get back to you on a reference to the other.

No it is not proof of apostasy, it simply shows that people needed correction for what ever reason. The fact that the letters were kept and canonized shows that the people they were addressed to accepted the correction from St. Paul. Not apostasy, but correction given and accepted.

 

[TexanKnight]

No it is not proof of apostasy, it simply shows that people needed correction for what ever reason. The fact that the letters were kept and canonized shows that the people they were addressed to accepted the correction from St. Paul. Not apostasy, but correction given and accepted.

Fatboy just admitted the LDS Church is in Apostasy. I personally know of letters sent by LDS Apostles correcting Stakes and Bishoprics.

 

[Porknpie]

The fact that Paul wrote letters of correction is proof of an apostacy taking place. I will get back to you on a reference to the other.

Lets define terms.

Apostasy from Wikipedia

**Apostasy in Christianity refers to the rejection of Christianity by someone who formerly was a Christian. **The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia (“ἀποστασία”) meaning defection, departure, revolt or rebellion. It has been described as “a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christian truth. Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian…”[2] “Apostasy is a theological category describing those who have voluntarily and consciously abandoned their faith in the God of the covenant, who manifests himself most completely in Jesus Christ.”[3] “Apostasy is the antonym of conversion; it is deconversion.”[1]

St. Paul’s letters give guidance to and encouraged church members in their faith. There was no apostasy let alone a “great apostasy”. The church membership grew “greatly” under the guidance of the church and the Holy Spirit.

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

“[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).

"**The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. **She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. **Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, ‘He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathereth not with me scattereth.’ **Cyprian, On Unity, 6 (A.D. 251).

 

[Crux_Sacra]

The fact that Paul wrote letters of correction is proof of an apostacy taking place. I will get back to you on a reference to the other.

Apostasy is a complete, willing abandonment of Christianity, as per the post above by Porknpie. It would have done no good at all for Paul to write letters of correction to people who had completely abandoned the Faith. They wouldn’t have read them, let alone obeyed. They probably would not have kept his letters. Instead, what we see are communities fallen into error who receive written teaching and correction from Paul, and accept it. What we see are children who are being formed by their father.

To attempt to extrapolate some mass apostasy from the fact that Paul had to write letters to correct errors, is simply reaching.

-God Bless!

 

[Janderich]

Let me give a few quotes about this topic of the great apostasy. I am under no delusion that it will convince anyone who is set in their mind. Also, it is not my purpose to attack but simply to provide evidence in support of the LDS on this topic. That being said, most LDS faithful would not say that written history is the ultimate cause for their belief in the apostasy but would rather site the word of the Lord given to Joseph Smith when he asked which church to join. The Lord answered by saying that he should join none of them “for they were all wrong” (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

Few, including myself, think that the apostasy was a one time event. There clearly is no “date” to say, “here is when it occurred”. It is also clear that even in the midst of an apostasy many good people will remain who see errors in the church but may not recognize an apostasy has occurred. Indeed we believe Joseph Smith did not know that there had been an apostasy until after his first vision. That being said, there is yet evidence. For instance, here are two quotes for early church fathers pointing to the fact.

Pray ye for the Church which is in Syria, whence I am led bound to Rome, being the last of the faithful who are there, even as I have been thought worthy to be chosen to show forth the honour of God. (Ignatius, “To the Ephesians,” in Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1886)1:58).

Ignatius here claims he is the last of the faithful in Antioch even though according to what I have read this was a large Christian city. To what is he referring and why would he say he is the last of the faithful?

Cyril after quoting from 2 Thes 2:3-10 wherein Paul says, “for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first” goes on to say:

Thus wrote Paul , and now is the falling away. For men have fallen from the right faith; and some preach the identity of the Son with the Father, and others dare to say that Christ was brought into being out of nothing. And formerly the heretics were manifest openly; but now the church is filled with heretics in disguise. For men have fallen away from the truth, and have itching ears…most have departed from right words, and rather choose the evil, than desire the good. This, therefore, is the falling away. (Cyril, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: Series 2 (Vol. 1-14), 1890–1899), 7:106–107)

Why is the church “filled with heretics”? Why does Cyril link these heretics to 2 Thes 2:3-10, which discusses a falling away?

 

[TexanKnight]

Let me give a few quotes about this topic of the great apostasy. I am under no delusion that it will convince anyone who is set in their mind. Also, it is not my purpose to attack but simply to provide evidence in support of the LDS on this topic. That being said, most LDS faithful would not say that written history is the ultimate cause for their belief in the apostasy but would rather site the word of the Lord given to Joseph Smith when he asked which church to join. The Lord answered by saying that he should join none of them “for they were all wrong” (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

Few, including myself, think that the apostasy was a one time event. There clearly is no “date” to say, “here is when it occurred”. It is also clear that even in the midst of an apostasy many good people will remain who see errors in the church but may not recognize an apostasy has occurred. Indeed we believe Joseph Smith did not know that there had been an apostasy until after his first vision. That being said, there is yet evidence. For instance, here are two quotes for early church fathers pointing to the fact.

Ignatius here claims he is the last of the faithful in Antioch even though according to what I have read this was a large Christian city. To what is he referring and why would he say he is the last of the faithful?

Cyril after quoting from 2 Thes 2:3-10 wherein Paul says, “for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first” goes on to say:

Why is the church “filled with heretics”? Why does Cyril link these heretics to 2 Thes 2:3-10, which discusses a falling away?

then using THAT theory, the LDS Church is in Apostasy. Look at the quotes deom Joseph about how many Saints had lost their way. Look at those whom he called heretics. Look at the breaking away from the LDs Church.

You are taking things that happened in the early Church while ignoring things that happened in your own…and are still happening. Further, you ignore the Bible verses I have provided that all the claim the Church will never die. Ever. Not even for just 1500 years. You also ignore the fact that no Bible verse EVER says there will be a Total Apostasy.

Finally, you ignore the fact that for an Apostasy to occur, Jesus would have be weak, dishonest and cruel. It is sad that, to have your way, you have to minimize Jesus.

 

[Stephen168]

I did not claim that he became a Christian. I said that he could see that Christianity was a great unifying force. That he gave back rights to christians that they had not enjoyed, and favored them in many ways because of what he could see as a way to unify the kingdom even though he did not live according to chritianity as has been pointed out. And I did not say that the apostacy started at this time. I started before the death of the apostles.

So you are claiming that Constantine had nothing to do with the Apostasy. Constantine did not give special rights to Christians, he gave religious freedom to all religions, even the very small minority religions like Christianity. Why did Constantine see a small minority religion as a “unifying force” as oppose to other major religions at the time?

 

[Stephen168]

. That being said, most LDS faithful would not say that written history is the ultimate cause for their belief in the apostasy but would rather site the word of the Lord given to Joseph Smith when he asked which church to join. The Lord answered by saying that he should join none of them “for they were all wrong” (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

That is my experience. Joseph Smith made up a religion with beliefs contrary to Christianity. Joseph Smith is right, and the historical Church started by Christ is wrong, therefore there was an Apostasy. You believe it because Joseph Smith said so with NO proof.

 

[Crux_Sacra]

Let me give a few quotes about this topic of the great apostasy. I am under no delusion that it will convince anyone who is set in their mind. Also, it is not my purpose to attack but simply to provide evidence in support of the LDS on this topic. That being said, most LDS faithful would not say that written history is the ultimate cause for their belief in the apostasy but would rather site the word of the Lord given to Joseph Smith when he asked which church to join. The Lord answered by saying that he should join none of them “for they were all wrong” (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

Few, including myself, think that the apostasy was a one time event. There clearly is no “date” to say, “here is when it occurred”. It is also clear that even in the midst of an apostasy many good people will remain who see errors in the church but may not recognize an apostasy has occurred. Indeed we believe Joseph Smith did not know that there had been an apostasy until after his first vision. That being said, there is yet evidence. For instance, here are two quotes for early church fathers pointing to the fact.

Ignatius here claims he is the last of the faithful in Antioch even though according to what I have read this was a large Christian city. To what is he referring and why would he say he is the last of the faithful?

Cyril after quoting from 2 Thes 2:3-10 wherein Paul says, “for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first” goes on to say:

Why is the church “filled with heretics”? Why does Cyril link these heretics to 2 Thes 2:3-10, which discusses a falling away?

I use E-Sword to look up Bible stuff while I’m on the road (like this week), and it contains a commentary called the Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge. The TSK commentary for 2 Thess 2:3 references 1 Tim 4:1-3, which says “some shall depart from the faith.” It also references 2 Tim 3:1-3 and 2 Tim 4:3-4. Just because it says “men” or “they” in general does not mean every single person. In some cases, like the heresies combatted by the early Church, and like the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6, large numbers of people fell prey to the false teaching. Many today have fallen prey to false teachings, such as the heresy of relativism, or the prosperity “gospel.” But just because many have fallen away, or will fall away, does not mean that the Church ceases to exist.

Until the very end there will be those who abandon the Faith. But the Faith remains nonetheless. Jesus Himself promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church. And Jesus doesn’t lie.

And keep in mind that when someone uses a phrase like “total apostasy,” (which is what is meant by “great” apostasy") they are also saying that the Saints in Heaven and all those in Purgatory abandoned the Faith as well. Since the Book of Revelation tells us that at the end of all things there are Saints in Heaven, then total apostasy is simply not possible. After death, there is no changing one’s mind; the choice is made, and the judgment is final.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

… That being said, most LDS faithful would not say that written history is the ultimate cause for their belief in the apostasy but would rather site the word of the Lord given to Joseph Smith when he asked which church to join. The Lord answered by saying that he should join none of them “for they were all wrong” (Joseph Smith History 1:19)…

We Catholics, and just about every other non-LDS would respond that Joseph Smith himself, his life, his demonstrated charecter, and his presposterous claims about pre-Columbian america are proof that one can likewise ignore anything he said about any so-called apostasy of Christianity, Catholic or otherwise

 

[PaulDupre]

Let me give a few quotes about this topic of the great apostasy. I am under no delusion that it will convince anyone who is set in their mind. Also, it is not my purpose to attack but simply to provide evidence in support of the LDS on this topic. That being said, most LDS faithful would not say that written history is the ultimate cause for their belief in the apostasy but would rather site the word of the Lord given to Joseph Smith when he asked which church to join. The Lord answered by saying that he should join none of them “for they were all wrong” (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

Few, including myself, think that the apostasy was a one time event. There clearly is no “date” to say, “here is when it occurred”. It is also clear that even in the midst of an apostasy many good people will remain who see errors in the church but may not recognize an apostasy has occurred. Indeed we believe Joseph Smith did not know that there had been an apostasy until after his first vision. That being said, there is yet evidence. For instance, here are two quotes for early church fathers pointing to the fact.

Ignatius here claims he is the last of the faithful in Antioch even though according to what I have read this was a large Christian city. To what is he referring and why would he say he is the last of the faithful?

Cyril after quoting from 2 Thes 2:3-10 wherein Paul says, “for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first” goes on to say:

Why is the church “filled with heretics”? Why does Cyril link these heretics to 2 Thes 2:3-10, which discusses a falling away?

A falling away from the Church; not a falling away of the Church.

Huge difference.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)