LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[Fatboys]

Also, baptism is a symbol of death TO SIN, which is life. Water is always a symbol of life.

Baptism means several things. Death or it also represents the person who is being baptized that they are putting of the old person. Coming forth out of the water represents resurrection or the putting on the new person. It also means that the person when baptised is symbolic washing away their sins.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Water is symbolic of burial. Jesus was buried in a toomb.

What does that have to do with how much water one is baptized with?

We die with Christ and to Christ, water is symbolic of the washing away of our sins, which is a literal grace of baptism.

Do you think a dollar bill needs to be in the shape of a shovel in order for it to symbolize the worth of your labor?

What do you think a symbol is?

 

[Fatboys]

Truthfully, it is impossible to know for sure the exact method used by John to baptize Jesus. However, given that archaeological evidence indicates that the normal method during the Church’s early years was pouring, I would say that it is likely that the artists’ renderings of the scene depicting John using either a small basin/bowl or a shell are probably how it happened. As you say, we should follow Jesus’ example, and the early Church believed the same way. Since the early Church used pouring as the norm, it is probably because that’s how the Lord was baptized.

Check out 1 Peter 3: 20-22; Exodus 14:15-16, 21-22…Notice that in these prefigurements of Baptism, the ark and crossing the Red Sea, the faithful are not actually plunged into the waters. Check out Joshua 3:14-17, where the faithful are, again, not plunged into the water. This, too, is a prefigurement of the Sacrament of Baptism. In a smaller prefigurement, look to 2 Kings chapter 2, where Elijah parts the water with his mantle so he and Elisha may cross on dry land, and then Elisha parts the waters shortly after. Peter echoes Psalm 69, crying out for God to save him from the waters.

The sacrament is also called “anointing” according to the Catechism 1216, being priestly and royal “as are those who are anointed.” Look to 1 Samuel 10 to see how Samuel anointed Saul. He poured the oil over his head. Look to Leviticus 8:12 to see how Aaron was anointed; oil was poured over his head.

There is more to Baptism than the aspect of death and resurrection, and one must take the whole into account when considering the symbolism, not just the one aspect.

I highly recommend reading the section on Baptism in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There is deep, rich meaning in the Sacrament, and the CCC will help you begin to explore it.

So did Samuel baptise Saul with oil or was it poured on him? I am not getting your point here

 

[Fatboys]

What does that have to do with how much water one is baptized with?

We die with Christ and to Christ, water is symbolic of the washing away of our sins, which is a literal grace of baptism.

Do you think a dollar bill needs to be in the shape of a shovel in order for it to symbolize the worth of your labor?

What do you think a symbol is?

How can a person be buried unto Christ by sprinkled on. It makes little sense to me. I understand that baptism has been a big controversy from the early church fathers. Origen wrote about it but his mentor taught against it.

Some stretch the scriptures where it teaches that whole families were baptized to mean infants were part of the family. It never says there were. But at one time my whole family was at home and they were well past infantancy.

 

[RebeccaJ]

How can a person be buried unto Christ by sprinkled on.

I think, with this question, your understanding of baptism skims the surface.

It makes little sense to me.

Baptism is an outward sign of an inward grace, given to us by Jesus Christ. You aren’t getting past the outward sign, and not understanding the inward grace.

It has been explained to you, but apparently, you are unable to hear.

I understand that baptism has been a big controversy from the early church fathers. Origen wrote about it but his mentor taught against it.

Baptism has never been a controversy. You’re going to have to provide a quote. Add it to your list.

 

[Crux_Sacra]

So did Samuel baptise Saul with oil or was it poured on him? I am not getting your point here

Samuel anointed Saul to be king by pouring oil over his head.
Moses anointed Aaron to be a priest by pouring oil over his head.
We become “a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation…” by baptism, which has many names (if you like, you can start reading about that here: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3H.HTM )

Pouring the water on echoes Jewish ceremonial washing; and “This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit…” (CCC 1215)

And it echoes the anointing of priests and kings; it is for Christians the entrance into the new covenant, setting us apart as a chosen people as circumcision did before.

And by the way, baptism is a* real* washing away of sins, not symbolic.

Baptism has never been controversial. What is controversial is people insisting today that it is only a symbol. Christ did not leave us symbols, he left us real things. He did not leave us a symbolic washing away of sins. He gave us a real washing away of sins.

This is one of the Sacraments of God’s One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. They are not empty symbols and gestures and meaningless words. They are real, and rich, and meaningful actual gifts from God.

As RebeccaJ says, they are outward signs of inward grace.

When the bible says “entire households” it means both entire households who have no infants as well as entire households who have infants. It’s not “either, or” it’s “both, and.” In Colossians 2, St. Paul writes about baptism and circumcision in the same passage, stating that baptism is the “circumcision of Christ.” Circumcision was administered 8 days after birth. Hence, babies are also baptized.

-God Bless!

 

[TexanKnight]

He was buried in a toomb that was sealed off from the outside world. Covered so that none of his body was was uncovered. And baptism was not only done during the time of John the Baptist but was part of Jewish inititation. Sprinkling water on someone does not bury them. Pouring water on someone does not bury them. Washing is also a form of baptism as well. It was a custom to wash which means to bury their feet in a basin full of water.

He was not buried underground. he was buries above ground, That, by itself, destroys your point.

 

[TexanKnight]

Water is symbolic of burial. Jesus was buried in a toomb.

Yes…above ground.

And I see you keep dodging my points.

When you cannot answer my points, you surrender the point.

 

[TexanKnight]

Baptism means several things. Death or it also represents the person who is being baptized that they are putting of the old person. Coming forth out of the water represents resurrection or the putting on the new person. It also means that the person when baptised is symbolic washing away their sins.

Actually, as has been proven in a post you avoided, Baptism means “washing”.

That can be done by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling. I have asked you to show me a single verse that REQUIRES immersion. You have dodged that, too. Hmmmmmm

 

[TexanKnight]

How can a person be buried unto Christ by sprinkled on. It makes little sense to me. I understand that baptism has been a big controversy from the early church fathers. Origen wrote about it but his mentor taught against it.

Some stretch the scriptures where it teaches that whole families were baptized to mean infants were part of the family. It never says there were. But at one time my whole family was at home and they were well past infantancy.

That is a pretty silly question. How can we be buried in sin and still be walking? Hence the symbolism.

We are buried because of sin…we are “washed clean” by Baptism. Now please show me a verse in the Bible requiring immersion. Further, show me that EVERY baptism in the Bible was done by immersion

 

[Stephen168]

How can a person be buried unto Christ by sprinkled on. It makes little sense to me. I understand that baptism has been a big controversy from the early church fathers.

I’ve never seen baptism by sprinkling, pouring yes, but never sprinkling.
Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles):

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’ve never seen baptism by sprinkling, pouring yes, but never sprinkling.

Me either. I think aspersion would be a rare, emergency, “we don’t have much water”, sort of baptism.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Fatboys, I was thinking on this idea of the amount of water matters. My first thought was the miracle where the woman touched the hem of Jesus’ clothes and was healed. Touched the hem…wasn’t wrapped in Jesus’ cloak or covered in mounds of cloth. It was her faith that healed her.

We come to baptism, with faith, that it is Jesus Christ who washes away our sins. The waters of baptism are made Holy by the baptism of Jesus Christ, by His death and by His resurrection.

How much water does it take to wash away our sins? If three cups of water are poured over our head, are we less washed than a person who has been submerged? If so, how? What does more water do than less?

 

[KathleenGee]

Water is one of the earth elements that are symbolic throughout Sacred Scripture.

But if you want to take it out of context, that is easy…whatever it takes…

Water, wind, fire, light…Water is purifying…consider Noah’s flood that purified the earth of sinful men who rejected God, who wanted sin. Or how Moses through God’s power, separated the Red Sea. Or the dewdrops with manna from heaven to feed the Chosen People in the desert. There is the symbol of the Tree in Jeremiah whose roots go down deep to draw on everlasting waters next to the river…

Water washes us in Christ’s name of original sin…the inclination to sin rather than to chose God.

Pentecost came in tongues of fire and rushing wind. In the past, God spoke to Ezekial in the whispering, gentle breeze. There are a number of passages of mighty gusts of wind in events of salvation history and we call them Theophanies…just as parting of the Red Sea when the Jews approached itwas a theophany…there is are times in its history where the waters part…and they have found chariot wheels at the bottom of the sea.

We are connected as people to Salvation History. We are connected to the ancient Jews and their faith walk when we hear the Old Testament readings at every Mass. We relive their lives in the Holy Spirit. Likewise, we connect with the beginning Church with the apostles and the believers when we hear the New Testament readings. And we hear Jesus Himself speak to us in the eternal moment, just as He did 2000 years ago.

We don’t take bible quotes out of context or separate them from other parts to make a new message that is different than from what the Apostles passed down to us through the Holy Spirit.

That is because the Word of God is the Living Word of God that transcends us, that is meant to nurture us in the Lord and to guide and teach us and to help us grow in Wisdom.
You cannot separate the Word of God from the Person/persons, because the Word of God is meant to exist in the hearts of people, and be their life spirit.

When Scripture is taken out of context, what is happening is that the peoples of faith of Salvation History, including all those who have lived in Christ in the Church up to today, becomes truncated and taken away from the unity and communion of people of faith. Taking Scripture out of context fragments and shatters the common faith of all of us.

We are connecting our faith to God the Person and to the persons of faith, living beings…not bible symbols or readings as entities of their own…that fractures us and fragments us.

The Living Word of God is to be taken in its whole because the Living Word of God is the force that unites us together in faith.

In the Catholic Judeo tradition, God comes to us within a gathering of people…implying that whoever is a prophet, is accountable to God and to the community in public witness. Doing so in all transparency, the faithful through their leaders are able to discern a true prophet from a false one.

 

[KathleenGee]

I wish to add to this idea of water, fire, light, wind…

God used ordinary means to bring about great messages. God did not use secret scrolls or hidden messages or prophets without witness or accountability, strange tales, or contradictions to the Gospel of Christ.

These latter means are more the work of individual men who are not satisfied with the ordinary means God has revealed Himself to us.

 

[Fatboys]

We also teach that baptism is an outward action of a inward faith. At baptism we promise to take upon ourselves the name of Christ, to always remember him and to keep his commandments. Baptism is symbolic of death and resurrection. Something we will all go through. Because of the death and resurrection of Christ, the bands of death no longer have power over man. That is there is now hope of rebirth. Baptism is representitive of rebirth. If you think about it, babies are surrounded by water until birth.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We also teach that baptism is an outward action of a inward faith. At baptism we promise to take upon ourselves the name of Christ, to always remember him and to keep his commandments. Baptism is symbolic of death and resurrection. Something we will all go through. Because of the death and resurrection of Christ, the bands of death no longer have power over man. That is there is now hope of rebirth. Baptism is representitive of rebirth. If you think about it, babies are surrounded by water until birth.

I have no disagreement with this.

I will only add, baptism is our entry into the life of the Holy Trinity and the Kingdom of God. Where we are made a royal people, partakers to the priesthood, prophethood and kingship of Jesus Christ.

We are buried with Christ which means we rise with Him.

These are effects of baptism. How we live is important as it signifies the Reality, Jesus Christ, of who we seek to be disciples.

 

[Crux_Sacra]

We also teach that baptism is an outward action of a inward faith.

That’s not what we said. You have taken what you were told and twisted it and emptied it of meaning. You are attempting to get another to agree with you through deception so you can misdirect them in their search for God. Why are deception and misdirection typical of LDS/Mormon apologetics? If your faith is so precious to you that you feel the need to argue apologetics, why does your representation of it do it such a disservice? You have what was told to you in print, online, where all you have to do is cut and paste. And you instead reword what could have been a quote, attempting to mislead.

At baptism we promise to take upon ourselves the name of Christ, to always remember him and to keep his commandments. Baptism is symbolic of death and resurrection. Something we will all go through. Because of the death and resurrection of Christ, the bands of death no longer have power over man. That is there is now hope of rebirth. Baptism is representitive of rebirth. If you think about it, babies are surrounded by water until birth.

You don’t quite get it. But, by the mercy and Grace of the Most Holy Trinity, perhaps one day you will.

-God Bless!

 

[Fatboys]

I have no disagreement with this.

I will only add, baptism is our entry into the life of the Holy Trinity and the Kingdom of God. Where we are made a royal people, partakers to the priesthood, prophethood and kingship of Jesus Christ.

We are buried with Christ which means we rise with Him.

These are effects of baptism. How we live is important as it signifies the Reality, Jesus Christ, of who we seek to be disciples.

Can’t disagree with that

 

[Fatboys]

That’s not what we said. You have taken what you were told and twisted it and emptied it of meaning. You are attempting to get another to agree with you through deception so you can misdirect them in their search for God. Why are deception and misdirection typical of LDS/Mormon apologetics? If your faith is so precious to you that you feel the need to argue apologetics, why does your representation of it do it such a disservice? You have what was told to you in print, online, where all you have to do is cut and paste. And you instead reword what could have been a quote, attempting to mislead.

You don’t quite get it. But, by the mercy and Grace of the Most Holy Trinity, perhaps one day you will.

-God Bless!

Huh?