LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[SteveVH]

That is there is now hope of rebirth. Baptism is representitive of rebirth. If you think about it, babies are surrounded by water until birth.

I find it extremely interesting that you consider Baptism to be “rebirth”. One only needs to be born again if one has died. From what death do you believe you are being reborn? It is my understanding that you do not believe in original sin. We believe that the sin of Adam and Eve caused spiritual death in them and also in us. Through Baptism, that original sin of our first parents is washed away, supernatural life is infused in our souls and God makes his dwelling place there. We are sinless, living tabernacles; new beings infused with the very life of God.

The point is, we were once spiritually dead as a consequence of original sin. What does “rebirth” mean to you?

Thanks.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Huh?

I’m still waiting for you to respond to 1 Tim 2:3-4 being a reputation of the “great apostasy” as explained here. Your addressing that would also help to get this thread back on topic.

 

[Fatboys]

You are mistaken.

[BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 36:25[/BIBLEDRB]

Janderich said “Without revelation apostasy remains. This then is all that is needed for an apostasy to occur. God, not man, decides when he will withdraw his power.” But God said it was His Will that this never would happen.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

Glad you brought this to my attention. I did read it, but it was too fragmented when I first read it. I reread and now I can see what you are trying to say. Let me get back to you.

 

[Fatboys]

I find it extremely interesting that you consider Baptism to be “rebirth”. One only needs to be born again if one has died. From what death do you believe you are being reborn? It is my understanding that you do not believe in original sin. We believe that the sin of Adam and Eve caused spiritual death in them and also in us. Through Baptism, that original sin of our first parents is washed away, supernatural life is infused in our souls and God makes his dwelling place there. We are sinless, living tabernacles; new beings infused with the very life of God.

The point is, we were once spiritually dead as a consequence of original sin. What does “rebirth” mean to you?

Thanks.

Christ was teaching a man who asked how he could be born again. The symbolism is there with a new beginning of birth as is baptism represents our new birth. And to me, the original sin is what I call mortality which is passed on to all because of the fall. Because of the disobedience of Adam sin was brought into the world as well as death. Physical and spiritual death. Physical death in that none of us are going to make it out of here without passing through the veil. Spiritual death because we are cut off from the presense of God. When Adam and Eve were in the Garden, they walked and talked with God in the cool of the evening. Because of the fall this was cut off.

 

[KathleenGee]

Fatboys…you say there was a great apostasy but you are now implying your beliefs about baptism are not much different than ours.

Where’s the apostasy???

When Christ was baptized at the River Jordan, this was the sign for us to follow, as it was the beginning of Christ’s ministry here on earth.

Baptism washes away original sin and incorporates us into the Body of Christ, purifies us and is the first step in being adopted sons and daughters of the Lord. This does not mean this is the first step in becoming a god.

To desire to become a god some day is the goal of Mormon men, isn’t it?

Baptism through Christ – after His death and resurrection and glorification as the Lamb of God on the altar before the Heavenly Father…incorporates us into His glorious and mystical Body in communion with the Holy Trinity.

Protestants are following the Catholic ritual of baptism and thus, they are separated brethren in the Lord. We pray for our separated brothers and sisters at Mass.

However, Mormon baptism has different goals…because it does not believe in the Holy Trinity, and now is trying to decide if the apostasy happened at the Council of Nicea which further elucidated the Divine and Humane Nature of Christ as well as subsequently define more thoroughly the Holy Trinity, which Mormonism doesn’t believe in.

What the Mormons actually consider apostasy…are the apostles and their successors administrating the Church, be they celibate or married. The focus on Mormonism is eternal marriage and so the universal Catholic/Orthodox priesthood is the real issue.

The Catholic/Orthodox priesthood and its office to teach us about God through doctrines as well as administrate at the altar is what is considered an abomination…our creed and how our belief in Christ is secured in doctrine in our universal catechism. This process goes all the way back to the Epistles, back to the Oral Tradition of Christ Himself.

To imply the Catholic/Orthodox priesthood as apostate is ridiculous. The priesthood provides the means to determine which books of Scripture were intended for the Church, this done around 100 AD, the manner of worship from Christ Himself in the Memorial, from the ecclesial structure of the bishops and their successors and disciples, to the Creed. The Mass was pretty much uniformly practiced throughout the ancient world to the point that St. Justin the Martyr was able to describe it to the Roman Emperor by 150 AD.

There was no apostasy.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Fatboys…you say there was a great apostasy but you are now implying your beliefs about baptism are not much different than ours.

Where’s the apostasy???

That’s where I’ve gotten to with Mormonism as well. Their leaders say, in response to all the various oddities their leaders have taught, but are now relegated as “opinion”, that is doesn’t matter anyway because those teachings had nothing to do with one’s salvation.

Ding! Ding!

There is nothing in Mormonism, having to do with one’s salvation, that isn’t present and always has been present in the Catholic Church.

Just one more point that makes the so-called “restoration” of Mormonism, superfluous.

 

[pablope]

Fatboys…you say there was a great apostasy but you are now implying your beliefs about baptism are not much different than ours.

Where’s the apostasy???

When Christ was baptized at the River Jordan, this was the sign for us to follow, as it was the beginning of Christ’s ministry here on earth.

Baptism washes away original sin and incorporates us into the Body of Christ, purifies us and is the first step in being adopted sons and daughters of the Lord. This does not mean this is the first step in becoming a god.

There was no apostasy.

Well…also the question can be asked…what was the purpose of the restoration claimed by the Mormons…if there was no change in views or understanding of baptism?

 

[Fatboys]

Fatboys…you say there was a great apostasy but you are now implying your beliefs about baptism are not much different than ours.

Where’s the apostasy???

Immersion vs pouring. The fall of Adam, not sinning but transgression with the same result, but mortality vs original sin. Baptism not taking away mortality vs baptism taking away original sin. Even though after baptism we still sin. Believing that infants can sin. A belief in the sinnless nature of Mary, celibacy, what goes on during mass, with the priest dressed as he is, with the incense, the repititions of prayers, the belief that the bread and wine literally turns into flesh and blood of Christ and so on. I am not mocking these things because they are sacred to you. We do have similarities, Such as the purpose and importance of baptism. Repenting of our sins. Working towards following Christ in all things to become as he is perfect. We are not going to reach it in this life for sure. The importance of the priesthood. Being charitable, compassionate, and in helping those in need. Sort of tithing at least contributions to the church. Missionary work, belief in God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost that they make up the Godhead. and etc. there is more.

When Christ was baptized at the River Jordan, this was the sign for us to follow, as it was the beginning of Christ’s ministry here on earth.

There is another similarity

Baptism washes away original sin and incorporates us into the Body of Christ, purifies us and is the first step in being adopted sons and daughters of the Lord. This does not mean this is the first step in becoming a god.

Almost. We do not believe in the original sin. We believe that Adam transfer mortality to all because of disobedience. We do not believe a person is held accountable for disobedience until the age of accountability, which is around 8 years old.

To desire to become a god some day is the goal of Mormon men, isn’t it?

My goal is to follow Christ to the best of my abilities in this life and the next until I become like Chirst in all things unto perfection. The blessings that come from that effort we can only speculate on. But if we become like the Christ and the Father, we inherit all they have. That is biblical.

Baptism through Christ – after His death and resurrection and glorification as the Lamb of God on the altar before the Heavenly Father…incorporates us into His glorious and mystical Body in communion with the Holy Trinity

You’ll have to explain that one…

Protestants are following the Catholic ritual of baptism and thus, they are separated brethren in the Lord. We pray for our separated brothers and sisters at Mass.

However, Mormon baptism has different goals…because it does not believe in the Holy Trinity, and now is trying to decide if the apostasy happened at the Council of Nicea which further elucidated the Divine and Humane Nature of Christ as well as subsequently define more thoroughly the Holy Trinity, which Mormonism doesn’t believe in.

We believe in the trinity, but not as you do. We believe that the Father has a body of perfected flesh and bone that is tangable as is our mortal bodies. We know that Christ was resurrected into his physical body. So God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ are seperate and distinct individuals but are one in intent and puropse. The Holy Ghost is a spirit and can reveal truth to mankind to his spirit. Spirit to spirit.

What the Mormons actually consider apostasy…are the apostles and their successors administrating the Church, be they celibate or married. The focus on Mormonism is eternal marriage and so the universal Catholic/Orthodox priesthood is the real issue.

Not quite sure what you mean here. Christ set up his church with apostles and prophets. The first head of the church after the death of Christ was Peter. So this we agree on. All the keys of the priesthood was given to Peter. Then portions of the keys were given to the other apostles, so that when they were all together, they had the same keys as Peter. But they could not act individually as Peter could. When a vacancy came to the twelve they got together and chose one. They were sent through out all the lands teaching and converting people to the gospel. But travel and communications were not good. Eventually they could not get back together to call others to replace those killed. Peter could have called them by himself because he held all the keys. But once Peter was killed the whole body of the others had to join together to choose another. They were all killed before they could keep up with having to replace them. So the higher part of the priesthood was gone. What was left was the Bishops. They could ordain other bishops, but could not ordain apostles. The people at that time were great and honorable people. Many died in their beliefs. They are going to heaven. The bishops did the best they could and were very sucessful in furthering the teachings of Christ and converts. But there were so many factions starting up, with no real head. Yes I know you believe there were leaders after Peter, but they were not called to be apostles and prophets. Even under the worse conditions, the gospel of Christ was being taught. But some of the teachings begin to include outside influences.

 

[Fatboys]

Part 2

There was no apostasy.

quote]The Catholic/Orthodox priesthood and its office to teach us about God through doctrines as well as administrate at the altar is what is considered an abomination…our creed and how our belief in Christ is secured in doctrine in our universal catechism. This process goes all the way back to the Epistles, back to the Oral Tradition of Christ Himself.

To imply the Catholic/Orthodox priesthood as apostate is ridiculous. The priesthood provides the means to determine which books of Scripture were intended for the Church, this done around 100 AD, the manner of worship from Christ Himself in the Memorial, from the ecclesial structure of the bishops and their successors and disciples, to the Creed. The Mass was pretty much uniformly practiced throughout the ancient world to the point that St. Justin the Martyr was able to describe it to the Roman Emperor by 150 AD.

There was no apostasy.

I’m not trying to change your mind. If you are happy with what you have, great. But God has revealed more just as he did anciently. He continues to reveal more in our day. I’m just here trying to let you know what we really. And I am not trying to say anything bad about those who have left the LDS church. Their reasons are their own. I know that when I have talked with those that have left, that many times they have forgotten or were not familar with some of the things we teach. There is so much bad information out there. I am trying to give you also an LDS Perspective on how we other beliefs. Why there was a need for a restoration. You don’t have to believe this at all. But I have asked hundreds of people from other religions as to how they know what they believe is right. Or why should I believe in what they have over what I believe? I really have not gotten a very good answer. Many will say because it is in the Bible. And then I ask how do you know the Bible is the word of God. They say because the bible says it is so. That is like me telling the kids on the bus that I drive to school everyday “I am good looking and if you don’t believe me, ask me”. There has to be some way for God to let his children know truth from error. Now I don’t ask a question unless I know the answer most of the time.

 

[Fatboys]

That’s where I’ve gotten to with Mormonism as well. Their leaders say, in response to all the various oddities their leaders have taught, but are now relegated as “opinion”, that is doesn’t matter anyway because those teachings had nothing to do with one’s salvation.

Ding! Ding!

There is nothing in Mormonism, having to do with one’s salvation, that isn’t present and always has been present in the Catholic Church.

Just one more point that makes the so-called “restoration” of Mormonism, superfluous.

It has never changed. People try to force doctrine down our throats because the prophet or apostles taught it. That is not how it works. Many times the prophets taught a higher level of understanding to help in the progress of the Saints. But many times the Saints were not ready to live it. So it was recended. Or many times they taught their own opinions, but it does not make it doctrine. What made it still seem like doctrines were the members trying to force it upon themselves and others. When teachings become doctrine there is a orgainized what of going it. First the prophet councils with his councilors, and if they support it, then it is presented to the rest of the apostles. If they accept it, then it is presented to the priesthood leaders and voted on. If all are in agreement, then it is presented to the general membership. It is voted on whether or not this doctrine is binding on us as a church. If it is accepted, then it becomes part of our doctrine and scriptures,

It really takes a turn when people who hate the church use it as some wierd cult like teachings and beliefs. It may be wierd to those who are not familar with it, but I am sure that at the time of Christ, many of those people found what he taught was wierd and cult like. So it is a matter of perspective. As I have been studying Catholic history, I can actually see why there were parting of the ways of beliefs. I mean you have one leader teaching one thing and then another teaching something else. There were bishops in many of the cities, with no way to confirm the teachings they had been given. The bible did not exist for a couple of hundred years after the death of the last apostle. They did their best. That is why there were so many factions of christianity during this time. To say that there was a complete agreement on doctrines during this time is ridiculous… Just kidding. about ridiculous

 

[Fatboys]

Well…also the question can be asked…what was the purpose of the restoration claimed by the Mormons…if there was no change in views or understanding of baptism?

Method of baptism for one. The priesthood is given to all worthy males and so a priest is not the only one that can baptise. Just things like that.

The purpose for baptism is pretty clear even though some denominations don’t believe it is important. Of course the reason they don’t believe it is important is that they have no authority to baptise anyone. Although many do baptise and get their authority from the bible. I still haven’t figured that one out.

 

[Stephen168]

Even though after baptism we still sin. Believing that infants can sin… . Repenting of our sins.

I have heard Mormon’s believe infants can sin; that is why they wait until the child is 8 and has sinned until they baptize them.

Catholics do not believe infants can sin which is the teaching was of Christ and the Apostles.

Seems like Joseph Smith invented something new and irrational.

 

[Arandur]

Wow, a lot has happened since I was on last, and the conversation has strayed.

One quick correction on Baptism.

Method of baptism for one. The priesthood is given to all worthy males and so a priest is not the only one that can baptise. Just things like that.

The purpose for baptism is pretty clear even though some denominations don’t believe it is important. Of course the reason they don’t believe it is important is that they have no authority to baptise anyone. Although many do baptise and get their authority from the bible. I still haven’t figured that one out.

Did you know that the Catholic Church teaches that ANYONE can baptize? Even non-baptized people? We don’t limit it to just priests.

And why is that? It gets to who actually does the baptism, who actually has the power to regenerate a soul from the death and subservience it is under since the Fall, who can actually reunite man with God by adopting us back into God’s family.

It’s not a man who can do that. It is JESUS. HE is our High Priest (which, by the way, is another reason the Church can never apostatize, because Jesus would have to apostatize; “Saul, why are you persecuting ME”–Jesus and His Church are One).

By invoking the name of the Holy Trinity, we call upon God Himself to do the baptism. That’s the whole point. God actually does the work, not man. He just asks that we be His instruments to call upon His power.

This is why it is nonsense to say that a baptism is only validly given by “someone in authority.” JESUS is the authority.

Of course, the normative method for baptism is having those ordained by the manner Christ chose do so, but any can invoke his name, with proper intent, to ask him to do it.

Baptism is a free gift of Grace; it is regeneration, rebirth into the eternal life of the Trinity, making us adopted sons of Christ. It should be denied no one just because some men are attempting to appropriate sole authority for that to themselves, as if they regenerate the soul and not Christ. There should be no reason to withhold it from infants, whose souls are receptive of this free gift but who are born outside the Garden and its union with God (“Suffer the little children to come unto me, and do not prevent them”)–how dare we prevent them by refusing to let them have baptism, denying them that free gift, refusing to take them to Christ and let him regenerate them into our Christian family!

Baptism does so much for us that hasn’t even been mentioned yet. And if, as Paul says, “Baptism now saves you,” how could God, who wishes all men to be saved, deny that to man for nearly 1800 years?

Tick one more to that myriad of problems with the apostasy theory.

 

[pismopal]

I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings either…but no LDS has ever explained their “apostacy” theory with any degree of credibility. The reason for this is obvious to me and most…it never happened. It is also ludicrous for a non church to be declaring THE Church to be apostate. LDS theology collapses around Joseph Smith. …it is as simple as that. Having said that and having not the slightest interest in becoming LDS…I must say I admire their values far more than the politicians who clam to be Catholic or even Christian and cling to abortion as something good and right.

 

[Fatboys]

I have heard Mormon’s believe infants can sin; that is why they wait until the child is 8 and has sinned until they baptize them.

Catholics do not believe infants can sin which is the teaching was of Christ and the Apostles.

Seems like Joseph Smith invented something new and irrational.

We do not believer infants can sin. Sin is the deliberate disobedience of Gods laws. Little children can not understand what is good and what is bad. When the reach the age of accountablity, then they begin to sin. Before that they are capable of disobeying God’s laws, but are not held accountable because they are innocent. Justice does not tolerate disobedience for any reason, and therefore the atonement of Christ excerises mercy upon justice. This is why little children need not repentance or baptism. Christ gave that to them through his sacrifice.

 

[Fatboys]

Wow, a lot has happened since I was on last, and the conversation has strayed.

One quick correction on Baptism.

Did you know that the Catholic Church teaches that ANYONE can baptize? Even non-baptized people? We don’t limit it to just priests.

And why is that? It gets to who actually does the baptism, who actually has the power to regenerate a soul from the death and subservience it is under since the Fall, who can actually reunite man with God by adopting us back into God’s family.

It’s not a man who can do that. It is JESUS. HE is our High Priest (which, by the way, is another reason the Church can never apostatize, because Jesus would have to apostatize; “Saul, why are you persecuting ME”–Jesus and His Church are One).

By invoking the name of the Holy Trinity, we call upon God Himself to do the baptism. That’s the whole point. God actually does the work, not man. He just asks that we be His instruments to call upon His power.

This is why it is nonsense to say that a baptism is only validly given by “someone in authority.” JESUS is the authority.

Of course, the normative method for baptism is having those ordained by the manner Christ chose do so, but any can invoke his name, with proper intent, to ask him to do it.

Baptism is a free gift of Grace; it is regeneration, rebirth into the eternal life of the Trinity, making us adopted sons of Christ. It should be denied no one just because some men are attempting to appropriate sole authority for that to themselves, as if they regenerate the soul and not Christ. There should be no reason to withhold it from infants, whose souls are receptive of this free gift but who are born outside the Garden and its union with God (“Suffer the little children to come unto me, and do not prevent them”)–how dare we prevent them by refusing to let them have baptism, denying them that free gift, refusing to take them to Christ and let him regenerate them into our Christian family!

Baptism does so much for us that hasn’t even been mentioned yet. And if, as Paul says, “Baptism now saves you,” how could God, who wishes all men to be saved, deny that to man for nearly 1800 years?

Tick one more to that myriad of problems with the apostasy theory.

Sounds nice, but biblically only those who held the authority were the only ones to be able to administer in the functions of the church. Such as casting out devils healings and baptism. I could be wrong, but I believe that not everone can baptise in the bible. And there is a reason to withhold baptism from infants if they do not need it.

 

[Stephen168]

We do not believer infants can sin. Sin is the deliberate disobedience of Gods laws. Little children can not understand what is good and what is bad. When the reach the age of accountablity, then they begin to sin. Before that they are capable of disobeying God’s laws, but are not held accountable because they are innocent. Justice does not tolerate disobedience for any reason, and therefore the atonement of Christ excerises mercy upon justice. This is why little children need not repentance or baptism. Christ gave that to them through his sacrifice.

Catholics also believe children have to reach the age of accountability to sin.

So Christ sacrificed only for children under 8 years old but not for people over 8 years old.
Why do you baptize sinless 8 yr olds?

Catholic believe Christ sacrificed himself for all of humanity not just people over the age of 8.

 

[Z_Ninja]

Sounds nice, but biblically only those who held the authority were the only ones to be able to administer in the functions of the church. Such as casting out devils healings and baptism. I could be wrong, but I believe that not everone can baptise in the bible. And there is a reason to withhold baptism from infants if they do not need it.

It does seem to all come down to proper Authority. I would then ask, since you are stating biblical authority, (and I know this has been argued many times before already) who had the authority to compile the Bible you use to cite biblical authority?

Anyone can correct me, but I learned somewhere that someone can baptize themselves through desire. I also learned somewhere that we have the power over demons and devils. and we can heal through our prayers, all this we can do in the name of Jesus Christ.

Why would you want to withhold a gift such as baptism from anybody? The Apostles baptized whole households at a time, including children. Scripture doesn’t say, they baptized this household, except for anyone under 8.

 

[Fatboys]

It does seem to all come down to proper Authority. I would then ask, since you are stating biblical authority, (and I know this has been argued many times before already) who had the authority to compile the Bible you use to cite biblical authority?

Anyone can correct me, but I learned somewhere that someone can baptize themselves through desire. I also learned somewhere that we have the power over demons and devils. and we can heal through our prayers, all this we can do in the name of Jesus Christ.

Why would you want to withhold a gift such as baptism from anybody? The Apostles baptized whole households at a time, including children. Scripture doesn’t say, they baptized this household, except for anyone under 8.

Does say there were children either. I had at one time a household that did not have little children as well, thank goodness.

This is a very good question. Who do you believe brought all the writtings together? And did they have the authority to do so. It would make sense to bring them together, and I am sure why it took over 300 years to do so. So many hands, so many authorities. Some saying I have the proper authority and doctrines and another saying the same thing. Seems a miracle that any of it came through. got to go

 

[Stephen168]

We do not believer infants can sin. Sin is the deliberate disobedience of Gods laws. Little children can not understand what is good and what is bad. When the reach the age of accountablity, then they begin to sin. Before that they are capable of disobeying God’s laws, but are not held accountable because they are innocent. Justice does not tolerate disobedience for any reason, and therefore the atonement of Christ excerises mercy upon justice. This is why little children need not repentance or baptism. Christ gave that to them through his sacrifice.
Stephen168;9977168:

Catholics also believe children have to reach the age of accountability to sin.

So Christ sacrificed only for children under 8 years old but not for people over 8 years old.
Why do you baptize sinless 8 yr olds?

Catholic believe Christ sacrificed himself for all of humanity not just people over the age of 8.

You missed this. Can I assume you see the irrational theology and practice invented by Joseph Smith?