LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[Janderich]

---

Janderich -

Seeing 1 corinthians 15, LDS interprets “telestial kingdom” = “bodies” ?

Porknpie, part of the confusion may come from the version of Bible being used. The King James Version gives the verses as follows:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Now in regards to the word “bodies”. All men will be resurrected but they will come forth with different kinds of bodies according to the glory they were capable of receiving. Some with Celestial bodies, some with Terrestrial bodies, and others with Telestial bodies. The kingdom we receive is based on the bodies we obtain at the resurrection.

Porknpie:

Where in scripture do you get celestial and terrestrial kingdoms?

Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial are given in the D&C. However from the above verses we have the two terms, “Celestial” and “Terrestrial” used. However, these are simply terms to define different levels. Paul also defines the three degrees by explaining the glory of the sun, the glory of the moon, and the glory of the stars.

 

[Fatboys]

Are you saying your formal education on farming was wrong or incomplete?

I am saying that what as taught could not fit into financial or practical use in my area. Perhaps else where. So some of it was wrong, some was incomplete. But they did not know any better. And they were not all knowning.

 

[jinc1019]

That is a legitimate question.

Actually no it isn’t. Do you really want to examine the presidents religious beliefs regarding salvation theology? Also, I would like to remind you that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, both men far more qualified than Romney or Obama, had some very different religious beliefs that you would be opposed to. Virtually all of the founders disliked the Catholic church very much.

 

[zaffiroborant]

After the spirit world people will pass on to one of three degrees of glory. The highest degree being the Celestial Kingdom, the next being the Terestrial, and the third being the Telestial Kingdom (see 1 Cor 15:40-42).

If you keep reading from 43-58 you will find the 3 verses you cherry pick do not mean what you say they do at all.

 

[CopticChristian]

If you keep reading from 43-58 you will find the 3 verses you cherry pick do not mean what you say they do at all.

Zaf,

What you do see is the remnant effect of many Protestant thought processes within the Mormon thought paradigm that plucks verses out of nowhere to mean what it is they want it to mean. It is part and parcel of many of the Protestant thought process.

John Chrysostom puts this in perspective better than Jan or Joe…

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory.

And what means he by these expressions? Wherefore from the resurrection of the body did he throw himself into the discourse of the stars and the sun? He did not throw himself out, neither did he break off from his purpose; far from it: but he still keeps to it. For whereas he had established the doctrine concerning the resurrection, he intimates in what follows that great will be then the difference of glory, though there be but one resurrection. And for the present he divides the whole into two: into bodies celestial, and bodies terrestrial. For that the bodies are raised again, he signified by the grain: but that they are not all in the same glory, he signifies by this. For as the disbelief of the resurrection makes men supine, so again it makes them indolent to think that all are vouchsafed the same reward. Wherefore he corrects both. And the one in the preceeding verses he had completed; but this he begins now. And having made two ranks, of the righteous and of sinners, these same two he subdivides again into many parts, signifying that neither righteous nor sinners shall obtain the same; neither righteous men, all of them, alike with other righteous, nor sinners with other sinners.

Now he makes, you see, first, one separation between righteous and sinners, where he says, bodies celestial, and bodies terrestrial: by the terrestrial intimating the latter, and by the celestial, the former. Then farther he introduces a difference of sinners from sinners, saying, All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of fishes, another of birds, and another of beasts. And yet all are bodies; but some are in more, and some in lesser vileness. And that in their manner of living too, and in their very constitution.

And having said this, he ascends again to the heaven, saying, There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon. For as in the earthly bodies there is a difference, so also in the heavenly; and that difference no ordinary one, but reaching even to the uttermost: there being not only a difference between sun and moon, and stars, but also between stars and stars. For what though they be all in the heaven? Yet some have a larger, others a less share of glory. What do we learn from hence? That although they be all in God’s kingdom, all shall not enjoy the same reward; and though all sinners be in hell, all shall not endure the same punishment.

 

[Porknpie]

1. My 2nd wife was a member of the LCMS Church, She really didn’t want me to become a Catholic, so I went with the LCMS. After much study and prayer, I feel that this is the church for me.

Bat - the Lord will hold you accountable to follow your conscious and not that of your spouse…

So to the topic, do you still believe in a great apostasy? If not, why not…? If yes, was this an influence in joining the LCMS?

 

[kimg901]

@Janderich The verse you posted must come from the Mormon edition because thats not what it says.
1st Cor Chp 15 Ver 40-41
40 There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the brightness of the heavenly is one kind and that of the earthly another. 41 The brightness of the sun is one kind, the brightness of the moon another, and the brightness of the stars another. For star differs from star in brightness.

How someone can get what you posted from these verses is beyond me. Ive been looking at this forum for the last month and all I can say is wow. We as Catholics should let these people speak what they will and pray for them. They are obviously lost thinking they can follow a man and his man made religion. But none the less, I will pray for you non-christian folks.

 

[batman1973]

Bat - the Lord will hold you accountable to follow your conscious and not that of your spouse…

So to the topic, do you still believe in a great apostasy? If not, why not…? If yes, was this an influence in joining the LCMS?

There is no"great apostasy". I believe the words of Jesus.He said: “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” Jesus is God, and God cannot lie (Numbers 23:19) You must have joined this board when I was on hiatus, so I’ll briefly recap. I had originally intended to join the RCC. I came here to “mingle” with Catholics and get a “feel” for how they are. In the course of my studies, I came to the conclusion that there are certain beliefs and practices of the RCC that I cannot agree to.( You can send me a PM if you want details) I joined the LCMS, because they are a conservative, liturgical church. Conservatism and liturgy is what initially attracted me to the RCC.(That, and as a self confessed horror movie junkie, the Catholic Church always kicks maximum demon behind) I’ve tried other churches. Methodists (IMHO) were too liberal, Southern Baptists are okay, but seem (IMHO) to be judgemental. I’m not a fan of the non-demoninational churches, in as they have too much Praise and Worship for my liking. I don’t go to church for the rock concerts. I go to worship my Lord. Don’t get me wrong, I listen to hard-core Christian music. Bands like 7 eyes 7 Horns, Becoming the Archetype, Impending Doom, Demon Hunter, A Plea for Purging. It’s all great music. But when I’m at church, I wanna sing “A Mighty Fortress is Our God” or “Amazing Grace” instead of something you’d hear on K-LOVE or Air-1.

 

[Porknpie]

But when I’m at church, I wanna sing “A Mighty Fortress is Our God” or “Amazing Grace” instead of something you’d hear on K-LOVE or Air-1.

Thank you again for sharing. I respect your desire for a liturgical church and the need to have music appropriately to worship. I love the way that our local Catholic Church connects the music to the liturgy. One of my favorites below perhaps you may like it too.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI1Gst7pEqc

To the topic…concur that there was no great apostasy…

 

[Janderich]

If you keep reading from 43-58 you will find the 3 verses you cherry pick do not mean what you say they do at all.

Zaffiroborant, Coptic, and others, it would help me to understand the Catholic perspective on this matter and these scriptures. I read the John Chrysostom comments but it simply brings up more questions. I have given the LDS perspective as I understand it. It would be helpful if someone can provide a basic explanation on the mater from the Catholic point of view I will discuss the differences.

 

[batman1973]

One need only to look at the so called “fruits” of this '“restored gospel” to see that it is not even a “gospel” Sure, Mormons and other of Joe’s churches love to crow about their “good works” but, as Christians know, Good Works ain’t all.

Mormons claim to have faith in Jesus, the same Jesus as you or I. But, is that so? No other church save the Mormons claim that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. No other church claims that God the Father was once a man. No other Church says that there is a pantheon of gods (with the exception of New age, or old Pagan religions) The bible says there is only one God. The churches of Joseph Smith claim to be a “restoration of the primitive church” Nothing of what the Joe Smith churches teach was ever taught or practiced by the primitive church. There is simply no record of this. Even if one were to claim that the Catholic Church covered up such teachings, there are secular records that show the primitive church didn’t have “temple ordinances”, multiple gods, or multiple wives (though some men in the O.T. did, but God was never thrilled at the idea) And to the mormons on this board or lurking, consider this: Catholics, which claims The Church to be the one and same that was started in 33 A.D. don’t seem to be too fond of change. (Vatican II is in my opinion a sore spot for many) Anything that the early church practiced,like your so-called restoration teachings, you can be sure, the Catholics or others like them would be teaching and practicing the same.

 

[ThatOrthodoxGuy]

How can someone who knows the truth can accept a lie?:takethat:

 

[kimg901]

I feel really bad for these folks. They have been deceived and we must pray for them. How could they believe that Christ would leave His Church? Christ does not lie. No apostacy ever occured nor will it ever. Heck,even J.S said he did more for his church than Christ. How can you call yourself a prophet of God then say such a thing or follow a man who would say that.

 

[Pork_Roll]

I feel really bad for these folks. They have been deceived and we must pray for them.

The sad thing is that anyone who leaves Mormonism is ostracized by their Mormon family and friends. There is intense social pressure in Mormonism. The only sure way to be damned in Mormonism is to abandon the Mormon faith. Mormonism is very similar to Islam.

 

[Cat_Herder]

His Father was God the Father. His mother was Mary. He was in reality half perfect and half mortal. Here is the problem. If Christ had a perfect body, he would not have died. Because his mother was Mary, he was then subject to death.

Problem #1 for your position is that Mary did not die, and if you insist that She did, then you just blew up the Bible.
Problem #2 is that God cannot be divided into halves. Ask any calculus professor to divide infinity for you and see what happens.
Problem #3 is that death is a consequence of sin, and Mary did not sin either. Read Genesis 3:15.

 

[batman1973]

The sad thing is that anyone who leaves Mormonism is ostracized by their Mormon family and friends. There is intense social pressure in Mormonism. The only sure way to be damned in Mormonism is to abandon the Mormon faith. Mormonism is very similar to Islam.

“I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword." -Joseph said this during the so called “Mormon War” of 1838

 

[ThatOrthodoxGuy]

“I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword." -Joseph said this during the so called “Mormon War” of 1838

Now that is scary :ehh:

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant, Coptic, and others, it would help me to understand the Catholic perspective on this matter and these scriptures. I read the John Chrysostom comments but it simply brings up more questions. I have given the LDS perspective as I understand it. It would be helpful if someone can provide a basic explanation on the mater from the Catholic point of view I will discuss the differences.

I’m sure others will speak up far more eloquently than me. As I see it you might as well bring up your questions because I see Chrysostom’s comments as covering the Catholic point of view just fine. My understanding is these verses are primarily explaining the “nuts and bolts” of physical resurrection, as best as possible. There is no evidence in these verses for different heavens, no segregation of those in heaven. Chrysostom states there is one heaven, which is living with God (The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit) and one hell living without God. How this is lived/experienced is a matter of degree of “glory” or degree of punishment.

 

[Janderich]

“I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword." -Joseph said this during the so called “Mormon War” of 1838

This quote is of very dubious nature. Thomas B. Marsh was an apostate who in his dissatisfaction with the church signed an affidavit claiming Joseph Smith made the above statement. Of course Fawn Brodie passed it on in her book and it has now been picked up by those disgruntled with the LDS church.

Many years later Marsh rejoined the church in Salt Lake City. Commenting on this 1838 affidavit he said,

About this time I got a beam in my eye and thought I could discover a mote in Joseph’s eye, though it was nothing but a beam in my eye; I was so completely darkened that I did not think on the Savior’s injunction: ‘Thou hypocrite, why beholdest thou the mote which is in thy brother’s eye, when a beam is in thine own eye; first cast out the beam out of thine own eye, then thou shalt see clearly to get the mote out of thy brother’s eye’.(Young & Marsh, p. 210)

 

[CopticChristian]

Zaffiroborant, Coptic, and others, it would help me to understand the Catholic perspective on this matter and these scriptures. I read the John Chrysostom comments but it simply brings up more questions. I have given the LDS perspective as I understand it. It would be helpful if someone can provide a basic explanation on the mater from the Catholic point of view I will discuss the differences.

Jan,

What are the questions. You want meat? We give you meat. No milk. Just meat.