LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[CopticChristian]

This quote is of very dubious nature. Thomas B. Marsh was an apostate who in his dissatisfaction with the church signed an affidavit claiming Joseph Smith made the above statement. Of course Fawn Brodie passed it on in her book and it has now been picked up by those disgruntled with the LDS church.

Many years later Marsh rejoined the church in Salt Lake City. Commenting on this 1838 affidavit he said,

Jan,

Sounds like Apostasy is rampant…

 

[CopticChristian]

Zaffiroborant, Coptic, and others, it would help me to understand the Catholic perspective on this matter and these scriptures. I read the John Chrysostom comments but it simply brings up more questions. I have given the LDS perspective as I understand it. It would be helpful if someone can provide a basic explanation on the mater from the Catholic point of view I will discuss the differences.

Jan,

Here is a Porterhouse/Kobi beef…Tertullian…

CHAP. XLIX. THE SAME SUBJECT CONTINUED.
WHAT DOES THE APOSTLE EXCLUDE FROM THE DEAD ? CERTAINLY NOT THE SUBSTANCE OF THE FLESH.

We come now to the very gist9 of the whole question: What are the substances, and of what nature are they, which the apostle has disinherited of the kingdom of God ?

The preceding statements give us a clue to this point also. He says: “The first man is of the earth, earthy”—that is, made of dust, that is, Adam; “the second man is from heaven " I0—that is, the Word of God, which is Christ, in no other way, however, man (al-
though " from heaven “), than as being Him¬self flesh and soul, just as a human being is, just as Adam was. Indeed, in a previous passage He is called “the second Adam,”” deriving the identity of His name from His participation in the substance, because not even Adam was flesh of human seed, in which Christ is also like Him.” “As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heav¬enly.” '3

Such (does he mean), in substance; or first of all in training, and afterwards in the dignity and worth which that training aimed at acquiring ? Not in substance, however, by any means will the earthy and the heavenly be separated, designated as they have been by the apostle once for all, as men. **For even if Christ were the only true " heavenly," nay, super-celestial Being, He is still man, as com¬posed of body and soul; and in no respect is He separated from the quality of " earthi-ness," owing to that condition of His which makes Him a partaker of both substances. In like manner, those also who after Him are heavenly, are understood to have this celestial quality predicated of them not from their present nature, but from their future glory; because in a preceding sentence, which originated this distinction respecting difference of dignity, there was shown to be “one glory in celestial bodies, and another in terrestrial ones,” I4—" one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for even one star differeth from another star in glory, " 1S although not in substance. **

Then, after having thus premised the difference in that worth or dignity which is even now to be aimed at, and then at last to be enjoyed, the apostle adds an exhortation, that we should both here in our training follow the example of Christ, and there attain His emi¬nence in glory: "As we have borne the image af the earthy, let us also bear the image of the heavenly.’'l6 We have indeed borne the mage of the earthy, by our sharing in his ;rangression, by our participation in his death, )y our banishment from Paradise. Now, although the image of Adam is here borne by is in the flesh, yet we are not exhorted to put if the flesh; but if not the flesh, it is the conversation, in order that we may then bear the mage of the heavenly in ourselves,—no longer .ndeed the image of God, and no longer the 'mage of a Being whose state is in heaven; just after the lineaments of Christ, by our talking here in holiness, righteousness, and truth.

and for dessert notice

** by our talking here in holiness, righteousness, and truth.**

eat up…

 

[Fatboys]

One need only to look at the so called “fruits” of this '“restored gospel” to see that it is not even a “gospel” Sure, Mormons and other of Joe’s churches love to crow about their “good works” but, as Christians know, Good Works ain’t all.

Mormons claim to have faith in Jesus, the same Jesus as you or I. But, is that so? No other church save the Mormons claim that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. No other church claims that God the Father was once a man. No other Church says that there is a pantheon of gods (with the exception of New age, or old Pagan religions) The bible says there is only one God. The churches of Joseph Smith claim to be a “restoration of the primitive church” Nothing of what the Joe Smith churches teach was ever taught or practiced by the primitive church. There is simply no record of this. Even if one were to claim that the Catholic Church covered up such teachings, there are secular records that show the primitive church didn’t have “temple ordinances”, multiple gods, or multiple wives (though some men in the O.T. did, but God was never thrilled at the idea) And to the mormons on this board or lurking, consider this: Catholics, which claims The Church to be the one and same that was started in 33 A.D. don’t seem to be too fond of change. (Vatican II is in my opinion a sore spot for many) Anything that the early church practiced,like your so-called restoration teachings, you can be sure, the Catholics or others like them would be teaching and practicing the same.

I find this really interesting. If there was not an apostacy then which ones teachings are correct? Did you know that many of the restored teachings can be confirmed by ancient writters of Christianity that was not put into the Bible? Such as a pre-existance, baptisms for the dead, temple rites etc. I think that if you did some historical research your opinions about a restoration would change.

 

[PRmerger]

I find this really interesting. If there was not an apostacy then which ones teachings are correct? Did you know that many of the restored teachings can be confirmed by ancient writters of Christianity that was not put into the Bible? Such as a pre-existance, baptisms for the dead, temple rites etc. I think that if you did some historical research your opinions about a restoration would change.

Hiya, Fatboys. I see you are online right now. Can you please answer the question posed to you several pages back? You claimed to have gleaned, after reading Humane Vitae, that it says that sex was for procreation ONLY. I asked for you to cut and paste the paragraph from which you gleaned this understanding.

Thanks.

 

[CopticChristian]

I find this really interesting. If there was not an apostacy then which ones teachings are correct? Did you know that many of the restored teachings can be confirmed by ancient writters of Christianity that was not put into the Bible? Such as a pre-existance, baptisms for the dead, temple rites etc. I think that if you did some historical research your opinions about a restoration would change.

Fat,

So there was an apostasy? Not!

The Bible is corrupt. Not!

Restored teachings, whatever that means, can be confirmed by ancient Christian writers, that was not in the Bible that was corrupt.

How is it you trust these outside sources that were apostate, that corruptedd the Bible?

Provide the names of the ancient Christian writers and a few of the restored teachings supported by same.

Don’t hold back, no milk, only meat will do…

 

[Fatboys]

Fat,

So there was an apostasy? Not!

The Bible is corrupt. Not!

Restored teachings, whatever that means, can be confirmed by ancient Christian writers, that was not in the Bible that was corrupt.

How is it you trust these outside sources that were apostate, that corruptedd the Bible?

Provide the names of the ancient Christian writers and a few of the restored teachings supported by same.

Don’t hold back, no milk, only meat will do…

This is post on a mainstream Christian forum that I belong to. The person who posted this was not a member at the time as I recall but is a historian who was studying ancient beliefs of Early Chrisitans. The more he did research he begin to notice some differences in what modern Christianity teaches and what the ancients did. So you looked for a religion that paralelled these teachings and discovered the LDS religion. He is now a member. He research is very interesting. I don’t know his name, but he uses a user name on the forum.

1. Regarding bbbbbbbs intimation that pre-existence is a point of separation between Mormons and “orthodox” Christianity, taste of truth said : “ Well, honestly, I think his statement is his own perspective and actually can survive on its own merits, precisely because history does not dictate whether or not a person must see “big” differences or “small” ones in relation to the subject matter.

My point was simply that pre-existent theology was the ancient orthodoxy in the early Christian movement and the non-pre-existent theology was heresy IN the early Christian movement. A hypothetical claim to believe “the 12 apostles were aliens from the planet zygog” can survive as an article of faith, but it cannot survive as a HISTORICAL statement among historians without a historical basis.

Thus bbbbbbbs intimation of non-pre-existence as an “orthodox” Christian interpretation may certainly survive in a modern interpretation, but his claim to “orthodoxy” dissolves into heresy as one approaches the c.e. era. That was my point.

1. Taste of truth opines : “ For what is history if not but one man’s perception of what happened!”

In the case of ancient texts, we are not speaking of “one man’s perception” but of what the majority of a very large group of individuals within the Christian movement believed.

If specific doctrinal themes appear repeatedly in large amounts of Judao-Christian literature, over long spans of time; and in multiple texts separated by long distances, then that has a very good chance of being the “orthodox” interpretation of a very large multitude of Judao-Christians of the period. History, can tell us what large groups believed and how they interpreted the scriptures and principles we see argued about in the forum.

3)Clearly said : Modern christianities who have little understanding of pre-mortal issues often view the atonement of Jesus as a hastily prepared “plan B”, necessitated by a crafty Lucifer who scuttles God’s “plan A” for Adam in a Garden of Eden.

Taste of truth responded : I don’t think this is defensible (red part). Whether or not Christians believe that the Fall was part of God’s design, I have full confidence that the vast majority of Christians (if not all) feel that God was fully aware of its occurrence long before it occurred. I have no statistics to offer in support of this, but I can’t remember speaking to any Christians who felt that Christ’s role in our eternal history was “plan B.” What, specifically, has led you believe otherwise?

You could certainly be correct. I was speaking from my own somewhat narrow experience growing up and from early religious history discussions. My native Christian movement as a youth taught that God had intended that Adam remain in the garden of eden rather than God having designed adam specifically to be disobedient (for which God then punishes him for doing) and that it was the disobedience of adam to Gods command which resulted in man’s fallen condition which THEN necessitated the need for a redeemer.

 

[Fatboys]

Post two

I think that I have wandered into a thread that I should have left alone. Perhaps I can leave you with an example of how early Judao Christian texts form a framework for LDS theology and then I will back out of this thread and return to historical forums (which is really my interest).

Joseph Smith explained the plan surrounding the atonement in the most simple, yet profound terms : Quote:
"The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. - Joseph Smith "

On the surface, the quote is so expansive that it is “too big a concept to handle”. However, as I’ve broken it down and looked at it, it is completely consistent with the most ancient teachings regarding God, the Fathers, overall plan for man, (of which the atonement is the central mechanism for making the plan work.) For example :

1. “…God…finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory…” (Joseph Smith)

Joseph Smith’s restoration of this principle harkens back to the earliest testimonies and descriptions of the ancient scriptures and texts that describe the innumerable number of spirits existing in the beginning and what God intended to do with these innumerable spirits. Regarding his vision of pre-creation heaven, Enoch records :

“No one could come near unto him from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him”. 1 En 14:23; In other parts of Enochs’ vision he testifies : “I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1 Enoch 40:1-2)” God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth in the future according to these ancient Old Testament scriptures (Enoch IS in the eastern Old Testament)

example:

 

[Fatboys]

post three

1. “…because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself…” (Joseph Smith)

The ancient Jews taught that God had instituted a divine plan. This concept is interwoven into concepts that are stated repeatedly, such as “Before all things came to be, he [God] has ordered all their designs” (4Q255-264)

The Prophet Enoch describes the earliest stages of this plan before it was known among the heavenly host : “for not even to my angels have I explained my secrets, nor related to them their origin, nor my endless and inconceivable creation which I conceived.” (2nd Enoch 24:3) In these ancient descriptions of his Plan, God the Father seems to take great care in both the planning of and in ensuring the deep involvement in the Heavenly Hosts (for whose benefit the plan existed).

Quote: …I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)

Though ALL spirits existed in the beginning, they were in no way equals (just as we are not equal now). Among them were the more intelligent and gifted; those who were more full of grace and truth than others. In this context Ignatius explains that among those spirits was "Jesus…who before the ages was with the father… (Ignatius :6:1).

The ancient records show the Father and Jesus, from early on, possessed a great similarity and unity. Jesus was given greater authority and administrated much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s “right hand” was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations).

Diogenes reaffirms the LDS restoration of this ancient doctrine in Diogenes teaching us : "And when he revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of ever would have expected… So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child… (Diog 301:8-11)

Ancient pre-creation council histories demonstrates that most of the spirits were joyous at having this opportunity to progress. For example the question God places to Job was not merely a rhetorical instruction, but a reminder of Jobs personal pre-creation theology. Quote: "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)

Enoch says that he saw : " the fountain of righteousness,…surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones. ‘

Who among these spirits viewing this spectacle would not have wanted to drink from that same wisdom and take their place with others who were holy, righteous and elect? It is of such a pre-creation council of spirits that Enoch testifies : Quote: " At that hour, that the Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the spirits, the Before-Time; even before the creation of the sun and moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. He will becomes a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles…All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him; they shall glorify; bless and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. For this purpose he became the Chosen One; And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones…in the name of the Lord of the Spirits; and because they will be saved in his name and it is his good pleasure that they may have life." (1 Enoch 48:1-7)

Long before Diogenes bore his New Testament Era testimony, Old Testament Era Enoch had bore the SAME visionary testimony: In Enoch’s vision, he see’s pre-creation Jesus with the Father and asks who this individual (Jesus) is and what role he has in the Father’s Plan: Quote:"At that place, I saw the Beginning of days * And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,…“Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?” And he answered me and said to me, “This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells…the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness…” (1 Enoch 46:1-4)

This is the testimony of Old Testament Enoch, it is the testimony of New testament Diogenes. It is the testimony of Joseph Smith (if I am correct in my interpretation). The parallels between the LDS restoration and the ancient teachings regarding the plan of salvation and the atonement continue even in discrete details the ancients taught. For*

 

[Fatboys]

Examples of what you mean?

Such as the ox being in the mire, or healing on the Sabbath, or only being able to walk so many steps on the sabbath. Calling the pharises hypocrits for praying as they did in the public using prayers which were memorized. Those kinds of things

 

[PRmerger]

Such as the ox being in the mire, or healing on the Sabbath, or only being able to walk so many steps on the sabbath. Calling the pharises hypocrits for praying as they did in the public using prayers which were memorized. Those kinds of things

He did not reject the Jewish traditions–rather he understood them for what they meant. The hypocrites were following them on the outside, but not on the inside.

Also, you do understand there is a difference between traditions and customs, and Sacred Tradition, right, Fatboys?

 

[batman1973]

I find this really interesting. If there was not an apostacy then which ones teachings are correct? Did you know that many of the restored teachings can be confirmed by ancient writters of Christianity that was not put into the Bible? Such as a pre-existance, baptisms for the dead, temple rites etc. I think that if you did some historical research your opinions about a restoration would change.

Nothing the Early Church fathers wrote say anything about such things, Josephus records no such teachings. If you’re gonna make such claims, you need to show proof.

Give us concrete proof there was an apostasy. Not just your “burning bosom” testimony

 

[Cat_Herder]

You never are going to answer this, are you…

Again, the problem is that in order to believe there was a restoration, you have to first believe that there was an apostasy, and in order to believe there was an apostasy, you have to believe that God threw billions of people into hell during the middle ages because all they could be was Catholic.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (NRSV)

This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Just by reading that, you know that God would never do such a thing. So if there was no apostasy, how can there be a restoration?

So, from an objective standpoint, this “personal revelation” based on “feeling” the “Holy Ghost” (it wasn’t the real One) has all the truth value of a Planned Parenthood commercial. You can only feel “personal revelation” when watching a PP commercial if you block out the millions of dead babies. Likewise, you can only feel “personal revelation” about the “restoration” if you block out the millions of souls that would be in hell if there was the alleged apostasy that existed before the alleged restoration.

But the **Holy Ghost **certainly doesn’t block either of them out. The dead babies are real. And so are the millions of souls. Thankfully, the Holy Ghost saved both of them; the former because they are martyrs; the latter because they are Catholic. And that is why the Holy Ghost can’t turn around and tell you to be a Mormon; there was no apostasy and thus nothing to restore and no restoration.

What you felt was suggestion, not the Holy Ghost.

 

[Porknpie]

Such as the ox being in the mire, or healing on the Sabbath, or only being able to walk so many steps on the sabbath. Calling the pharises hypocrits for praying as they did in the public using prayers which were memorized. Those kinds of things

Christ condemned the Pharisees for calling attention to themselves as a way of glorifying themselves and not God…

Does LDS theology include a restoration of Jewish customers including holding to the Saturday Sabbath and glorification of the Priests themselves and not God. I know the answer is no…I don’t understand what this has to do with a New Testament Apostasy in the Catholic church…

Fatboys - do you believe that the Pharisees were hypocrits?

 

[SteveVH]

I think that I have wandered into a thread that I should have left alone. Perhaps I can leave you with an example of how early Judao Christian texts form a framework for LDS theology and then I will back out of this thread and return to historical forums (which is really my interest).

Maybe you should have left this thread alone but you didn’t and it isn’t really fair to make the statements you have made in the past several posts and then leave the thread.

Joseph Smith explained the plan surrounding the atonement in the most simple, yet profound terms : Quote:
"The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. - Joseph Smith "

Simply amazing. Aside from the whole “pre-mortal existence” issue, do you realize that no where does he even mention the saving grace of Jesus Christ? Instead we are saved by gaining knowledge. That is how we advance to the highest heaven until we become god ourselves. Very telling.

As for the pre-mortal existence issue, this theological error affects all other LDS doctrine, beliefs and manner of reasoning. I read a post on a Mormon forum a couple of weeks ago that defended abortion on the grounds that the aborted babies had chosen that fate before they were born. It affects the views on Adam and Eve, original sin, the reason for Jesus’ coming into the world and the meaning of salvation. This foundational belief and its theological and anthropological ramifications are at the heart of the lack of communication between Mormons and everyone else.

On the surface, the quote is so expansive that it is “too big a concept to handle”.

Too big a concepte to handle? There is nothing too big to handle other than it is an erroneous theological concept that minimizes the power, authority, glory and majesty of God and denies his true identity. He’s just another eternal being that just happened to be more intelligent than the others. Then, I guess, at some point he had to become man (I am speaking of the Father) in order to become God again, or something like that. Not quite sure how that works, but you believe that God was once a man like us, right? Yet he was eternal before he became man? So God who "found himself "among a multitude of spirits, first had to regress and become a man so that he could then progress right back to the place he started. Makes sense to me.

1. “…God…finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory…” (Joseph Smith)

Joseph Smith’s restoration of this principle harkens back to the earliest testimonies and descriptions of the ancient scriptures and texts that describe the innumerable number of spirits existing in the beginning and what God intended to do with these innumerable spirits. Regarding his vision of pre-creation heaven, Enoch records:

Enoch is not scripture.

(God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth in the future according to these ancient Old Testament scriptures. Enoch IS in the eastern Old Testament)

That is completely misleading. In about 10 seconds I found this on Wiki. If it is an incorrect statement then please provide evidence refuting it.

“The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch[1]) is an ancient Jewish religious work, traditionally ascribed to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah. It is not part of the biblical canon as used by Jews, apart from Beta Israel. It is regarded as canonical by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church, but no other Christian group.”

 

[Fatboys]

I told you guys what it was. I did not say that these things came from the Bible, but from ancient writters of which the author quotes. You asked for references and so I gave them to you. What it does say is that ancient writters had the same beliefs that we have as a restoration. Something that Joseph Smith had no access to. And this is just the tip of the iceburg. You don’t have to believe this, but it adds credibility to the restoration as the author has stated. If you are interested in more, I can post more of what he has to say.

 

[KathleenGee]

Fatboys…you are most likely touching the tip of the iceberg called ‘Gnosticism’. Egypt is the source of alot of gnostic writings…

Egypt represents symbolically the place of exile, of slavery.

 

[kimg901]

I told you guys what it was. I did not say that these things came from the Bible, but from ancient writters of which the author quotes. You asked for references and so I gave them to you. What it does say is that ancient writters had the same beliefs that we have as a restoration. Something that Joseph Smith had no access to. And this is just the tip of the iceburg. You don’t have to believe this, but it adds credibility to the restoration as the author has stated. If you are interested in more, I can post more of what he has to say.

So is this author LDS? What I find hard to believe is that you mormons can trully believe that God would send His only Son who gave us His Church, only to turn around and say “Oops, I made a mistake and so did my Son, my bad. Joseph, start a new one because we were lying the first time” But then again, you believe that God was once a man that walked the earth.

 

[KathleenGee]

“Inside the Vatican” is on line…There is a new article…regarding the ancient manuscript that said Christ spoke about His wife…they have information that shows how the entire document was faked…November 11, 2012.

It is these kinds of disciplines that likewise were applied in Joseph Smith’s claims to the golden plates and other ideas.

If anything, Joseph Smith is the one who is apostate who turned his back on Christianity and all its verifiable documentation to instead promote such ideas.

Apostasy is turning one’s back on God. Countless Christians, who were fed the Eucharist, died for a period of the first 300 years of Christianity, who professed their faith in the Apostles Creed. The Nicene Creed simply stated that God the Father and Son are of the same substance…One God. No one turned away.

There was the Great Schism 1,000 years ago. But for 1,500 years our faith has centered on the reality that Christ remains with us physically…in the Eucharist…Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity…The Eucharist is the main center and focus of loss of faith by the Protestants as well as other problems.

So for only 500 years have we seen a splintering and shattering of faith and communion, and mainline Protestantism is now seeing an 80% loss of members. Peter forewarned us not to follow personal interpretation…Christ said to receive Eternal Life, we must eat of Him and drink of Him.

Loosing faith in the Eucharist for some form of Evangelical Church…as the conglomeration of Protestant denominations were called in the early 1800’s in Europe…led to more splintering, and then the family began to be splintered with the acceptance of divorce.

The breakdown of the family coincides with the loss of faith and turning away from God. We are seeing the effects of the Great Apostasy in America and Europe. But it is not the universal Catholic Church whose faith and practices have been lived out for 2,000 years.

 

[Janderich]

I’m sure others will speak up far more eloquently than me. As I see it you might as well bring up your questions because I see Chrysostom’s comments as covering the Catholic point of view just fine. My understanding is these verses are primarily explaining the “nuts and bolts” of physical resurrection, as best as possible. There is no evidence in these verses for different heavens, no segregation of those in heaven. Chrysostom states there is one heaven, which is living with God (The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit) and one hell living without God. How this is lived/experienced is a matter of degree of “glory” or degree of punishment.

Jan,

What are the questions. You want meat? We give you meat. No milk. Just meat.

Thanks zaffiroborant, I was trying to understand the Catholic point of view in regards to the Chrysostom quote. I believe I now do.

In the quote, Chrysostom acknowledges heaven and hell as two distinct states. I have no problem with this. We also believe in heaven and hell.

It is also clear that he acknowledges different degrees of glory. For he splits heaven into three. Of heaven he says, “there being not only a difference between sun and moon, and stars, but also between stars and stars. For what though they be all in the heaven? Yet some have a larger, others a less share of glory.” Perhaps I have stated things poorly in previous posts for LDS would agree with this thought completely. We would also agree that these three divisions rightly apply to those in “heaven”. Additionally, we acknowledge a hell which we term “outer darkness”. However we believe few, only Sons of Perdition, will be relegated to such a condition.

If this is indeed what Catholics believe then it seems I received quite a bit of criticism for simply stating what an early church father has already said.

 

[PRmerger]

Hiya, Janderich!

I see you are online now. Can you answer a question I posed way back to you?

Can someone, according to LDS theology, be in paradise but never given a kingdom?