LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[KathleenGee]

Here is my reference to Fatboys…and how he is thinking his sources are starting to touch on the tip of the iceberg about other understandings of Christ that the Catholic Church does not teach or uphold.

Usually my references don’t seem to work…Check out www.vaticaninsider.com under World News tab. New article dated today, November 11, 2012. ‘Here’s how the fake papyrus on Jesus’ “wife” was created’.

The article gives you a background of early Christian thought and the gnostic writings. The gnostic beliefs continued in Egypt and greatly weakened the Catholic faith. Several hundred years’ later Islam conquered Egypt.

 

[Janderich]

Hiya, Janderich!

I see you are online now. Can you answer a question I posed way back to you?

Can someone, according to LDS theology, be in paradise but never given a kingdom?

I have never heard a definitive answer on your specific question but I would say it is unlikely for one in paradise not to receive a kingdom of glory. The large majority of people who have ever lived will be glorified. Even most who enter spirit prison are likely to eventually receive a lesser kingdom.

 

[PRmerger]

I have never heard a definitive answer on your specific question but I would say it is unlikely for one in paradise not to receive a kingdom of glory. The large majority of people who have ever lived will be glorified. Even most who enter spirit prison are likely to eventually receive a lesser kingdom.

Ah, I see then.

So why was it that you made a claim that the thief, who Jesus said would be in paradise, was not saved?

When in reality you don’t have a definitive answer, and, as you state above, you say it’s “likely” that he would eventually receive a kingdom, yes?

Who says the thief on the cross was never baptized? However this is beside the point, Jesus says, “today shalt thou be with me in paradise”. This is not salvation. This is simply the spirit world. One is not saved until the resurrection.

 

[Fatboys]

Ah, I see then.

So why was it that you made a claim that the thief, who Jesus said would be in paradise, was not saved?

When in reality you don’t have a definitive answer, and, as you state above, you say it’s “likely” that he would eventually receive a kingdom, yes?

Because this does not save them? They have to accept the gospel of Christ in full, and then have the ordinances performed for them and then accept them to be saved at the time of Judgement.

 

[PRmerger]

Because this does not save them? They have to accept the gospel of Christ in full, and then have the ordinances performed for them and then accept them to be saved at the time of Judgement.

So someone in Paradise can then go to hell?

 

[CopticChristian]

Such as the ox being in the mire, or healing on the Sabbath, or only being able to walk so many steps on the sabbath. Calling the pharises hypocrits for praying as they did in the public using prayers which were memorized. Those kinds of things

Fat,

Are you serious in your attempt to portray your point of view?

This is post on a mainstream Christian forum that I belong to.

The entire intorduction to you explanation starts with this… and here is what I say…

SO WHAT YOU WANT ME TO BELIEVE IS THAT YOU HEARD SOMETHING FROM SOMEONE, YOU DON’T KNOW THEIR NAME BECAUSE IT IS ON A WEBSITE WITH A USERNAME AND YOU DON’T KNOW WHO IT IS. THIS IS NO AUTHORITY. WHAT YOU HEARD, NOW WE ARE BACK TO ORAL TRADITION THAT YOU SAY IS NOT TRUSTWORTHY.

1. Regarding bbbbbbbs intimation that pre-existence is a point of separation between Mormons and “orthodox” Christianity, taste of truth said :

I have no idea what bbbb is however what I read makes no sens…

I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY HERE. SHOW EVIDENCE OF THE PRE-EXISTENT AND HERESY.

1. Taste of truth opines : “ For what is history if not but one man’s perception of what happened!”

In the case of ancient texts, we are not speaking of “one man’s perception” but of what the majority of a very large group of individuals within the Christian movement believed.

Fat say what…prove this…

SHOW ME A MAJORITY OF LARGE GROUPS THAT JUSIFY MORMON THOUGHT.

3)Clearly said : Modern christianities who have little understanding of pre-mortal issues often view the atonement of Jesus as a hastily prepared “plan B”, necessitated by a crafty Lucifer who scuttles God’s “plan A” for Adam in a Garden of Eden.

YOUR THIRD POINT WITH EXAMPLES SHOWS ME JOSEPH SMITH, DIOGENES A PHILOSOPHER AND ENOCH? THIS IS WHAT YOU BASE YOUR SUPPORT ON.

Recognize that the OHCAC has Apostolic succession and all that is taught can be proved through the ages. Recognize that Catholics that oppose your view are not instruments of Satan. Recognize that you are in a difficult position because while you have heard and seen many say if I was not Mormon I would be Catholic…your proof of what you believe is lacking and convinces me that you have a difficult time accepting it as well…

 

[zaffiroborant]

Thanks zaffiroborant, I was trying to understand the Catholic point of view in regards to the Chrysostom quote. I believe I now do.

In the quote, Chrysostom acknowledges heaven and hell as two distinct states. I have no problem with this. We also believe in heaven and hell.

It is also clear that he acknowledges different degrees of glory. For he splits heaven into three. Of heaven he says, “there being not only a difference between sun and moon, and stars, but also between stars and stars. For what though they be all in the heaven? Yet some have a larger, others a less share of glory.” Perhaps I have stated things poorly in previous posts for LDS would agree with this thought completely. We would also agree that these three divisions rightly apply to those in “heaven”. Additionally, we acknowledge a hell which we term “outer darkness”. However we believe few, only Sons of Perdition, will be relegated to such a condition.

If this is indeed what Catholics believe then it seems I received quite a bit of criticism for simply stating what an early church father has already said.

Catholics and this early church father mean nothing like the LDS teaching on the different kingdoms when they speak of different degrees of glory. The quote I posted from LDS.org is so far off Catholic and Chrysostom’s teaching and It is disingenuous to imply that Chrysostom’s or the Catholic churches understanding are similar the the LDS.

The Celestial Kingdom

This is the place where our Father in Heaven and Jesus live. It is a place where people will be happy, and it will be more beautiful than we can imagine. The people who will live in this kingdom will love our Father in Heaven and Jesus and will choose to obey Them. They must have repented of all their sins and must have accepted Jesus as their Savior. They must have been baptized and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. They must have a testimony from the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Savior.

To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation* or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. People who are not married in the temple may live in other parts of the celestial kingdom, but they will not be exalted.
The Terrestrial Kingdom

This kingdom is not as wonderful as the celestial kingdom. Even though Jesus will visit the terrestrial kingdom, those who live there will not live with our Father in Heaven, and they will not have all He has. Those who go to the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people. Some of them will be members of the Church, and others will not. They will be those who did not accept Jesus on earth but later accepted Him in the spirit world. The people who will live there will not be part of an eternal family but will live separately, without families. Our Father in Heaven will give these people the happiness they are prepared to receive.
The Telestial Kingdom

This kingdom is not as wonderful as the celestial kingdom or the terrestrial kingdom. Neither our Father in Heaven nor Jesus will visit those who live here. Angels will visit these people, and they will have the influence of the Holy Ghost. The people who live in the telestial kingdom are those who did not accept either the gospel or a testimony of Jesus, either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in spirit prison until after the Millennium. Then they will finally be resurrected.

While on this earth, they were liars, thieves, murderers, false prophets, adulterers, and those who ridiculed sacred things. They were the people who accepted the beliefs of the world rather than the teachings of Jesus. Many people will live in this kingdom. Our Father in Heaven will give these people the happiness they are prepared to receive.

Link to LDS.org page this originated from

 

[ThatOrthodoxGuy]

Why do The Mormons dodge the question?

 

[CopticChristian]

Why do The Mormons dodge the question?

TOG,

They have been taught that those that undermine their beliefs are instruments of Satan and not to read anything not approved by LDS. Does this remind you of the Iron Curtain and Pravda?

 

[Janderich]

Ah, I see then.

So why was it that you made a claim that the thief, who Jesus said would be in paradise, was not saved?

When in reality you don’t have a definitive answer, and, as you state above, you say it’s “likely” that he would eventually receive a kingdom, yes?

First let me clarify what I said. I did not say he could not be saved. I said that the Jesus’ promise of paradise was not a promise of salvation. I do not deny that he may at some future point indeed receive salvation. However, a thief cannot receive instant salvation without accepting the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, which include repentance and baptism.

Spencer W. Kimball twelfth president of the LDS church stated:

Another mistaken idea is that the thief on the cross was forgiven of his sins when the dying Christ answered: “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43) These men on the cross were thieves. How could the Lord forgive a malefactor? They had broken laws. There was no doubt of the guilt of the two men, for the one voluntarily confessed their guilt.

The Lord cannot save men in their sins but only from their sins, and that only when they have shown true repentance. The one thief did show some compassion, whether selfishly with hope we are not sure. He was confessing, but how could he abandon his evil practices when dungeon walls made evil deeds impossible? How could he restore the stolen goods when hanging on the cross? How could he, as John the Baptist required, “bring forth fruits meet for repentance”? (The Miracle of Forgiveness p. 166)

So wether he was baptized or not this man on the cross upon entering the spirit world needed to pass through the same process we all do of repentance and forgiveness before being saved in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[ThatOrthodoxGuy]

TOG,

They have been taught that those that undermine their beliefs are instruments of Satan and not to read anything not approved by LDS. Does this remind you of the Iron Curtain and Pravda?

It does:thumbsup: Well you have to have all the sheep in one pasture. If you dont then you have dissent.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I find this really interesting. If there was not an apostacy then which ones teachings are correct? Did you know that many of the restored teachings can be confirmed by ancient writters of Christianity that was not put into the Bible? Such as a pre-existance, baptisms for the dead, temple rites etc. I think that if you did some historical research your opinions about a restoration would change.

Perhaps it would help to understand, from the Catholic POV, all beliefs regarding God contain a measure of truth. Some more than others. Some mainstream Protestants are very Catholic in their beliefs and practices. Others, less so. I know a few Lutherans that are more Catholic than many Catholics.

Catholic teaching is, of course, the fullness of truth is found in the Catholic Church.

If a person is following their conscience, and living according to what they believe about God, that is how they will be judged. So even a Mormon, with its paganized beliefs, can find God’s mercy in His judgement, and know heaven.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Because this does not save them? They have to accept the gospel of Christ in full, and then have the ordinances performed for them and then accept them to be saved at the time of Judgement.

http://hollywoodacademyofmusic.com/images/ICON_checkbox-d.gif

 

[zaffiroborant]

Another mistaken idea is that the thief on the cross was forgiven of his sins when the dying Christ answered: “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43) These men on the cross were thieves. How could the Lord forgive a malefactor? They had broken laws. There was no doubt of the guilt of the two men, for the one voluntarily confessed their guilt.

The Lord cannot save men in their sins but only from their sins, and that only when they have shown true repentance. The one thief did show some compassion, whether selfishly with hope we are not sure. He was confessing, but how could he abandon his evil practices when dungeon walls made evil deeds impossible? How could he restore the stolen goods when hanging on the cross? How could he, as John the Baptist required, “bring forth fruits meet for repentance”? (The Miracle of Forgiveness p. 166)

This is just so wrong in so many ways it is just awful.

 

[twopekinguys]

This is just so wrong in so many ways it is just awful.

That’s not the first one of his statements that falls into that category.

Basically, he just called Jesus a liar.

 

[Porknpie]

However, a thief cannot receive instant salvation without accepting the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, which include repentance and baptism.

Janderich, the passage has been understood that the thief repented by accepting their punishment…and by asking and knowing that they were asking God incarnate for eternal life by believing in the Son. Baptism here is by desire and does not limit God to a baptism by water, as the Pharisees limited God by holding to the Law.

In 2 Corinthians 12 below, paradise is being described as heaven in the same way as how Luke uses it with the thief on the cross.

1 I must boast; not that it is profitable, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I know someone in Christ who, fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows), was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know that this person (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows)
4 was caught up into Paradise and heard ineffable things, which no one may utter.
5 About this person I will boast, but about myself I will not boast, except about my weaknesses.
6 Although if I should wish to boast, I would not be foolish, for I would be telling the truth. But I refrain, so that no one may think more of me than what he sees in me or hears from me
7 because of the abundance of the revelations. Therefore, that I might not become too elated, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, an angel of Satan, to beat me, to keep me from being too elated.
8 Three times I begged the Lord about this, that it might leave me,
9 but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness.” I will rather boast most gladly of my weaknesses,* in order that the power of Christ may dwell with me.
10 Therefore, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and constraints, for the sake of Christ;e for when I am weak, then I am strong.

Also in revelation 2, paradise is used again in the same way = tree of life = heaven. KJV below

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Tree of life…Revelation 22

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was **there the tree of life, **which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

The tree of life is in front of the throne of God (in heaven) which is the same as being in the midst of the Paradise of God.

 

[Z_Ninja]

This is just so wrong in so many ways it is just awful.

I have no words after reading that statement. So… Jesus was so weak that a) his church failed and now b) he being God, was not able to forgive the thief.

 

[PRmerger]

So wether he was baptized or not this man on the cross upon entering the spirit world needed to pass through the same process we all do of repentance and forgiveness before being saved in the kingdom of heaven.

So you are saying that someone can be in Paradise but then go to hell? Yes, or no.

Note the place that the thief went to was PARADISE. Not prison.

 

[SteveVH]

I told you guys what it was. I did not say that these things came from the Bible, but from ancient writters of which the author quotes. You asked for references and so I gave them to you.

Excuse me. This is what you said:

Originally Posted by Fatboys
God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth in the future according to these ancient Old Testament scriptures (Enoch IS in the eastern Old Testament)

That is a little different then saying “from ancient writters of which the author quotes”.

What it does say is that ancient writters had the same beliefs that we have as a restoration. Something that Joseph Smith had no access to. And this is just the tip of the iceburg. You don’t have to believe this, but it adds credibility to the restoration as the author has stated. If you are interested in more, I can post more of what he has to say.

In the first place, as others have already said, no one knows who this “author” is therefore he has no demonstrative credibility. Second of all, the fact that Joseph Smith may have hit on one aspect of some pagan belief does not lend credibility. I am certainly not interested in more opinion by some unkown poster on another forum.

 

[Fatboys]

Janderich, the passage has been understood that the thief repented by accepting their punishment…and by asking and knowing that they were asking God incarnate for eternal life by believing in the Son. Baptism here is by desire and does not limit God to a baptism by water, as the Pharisees limited God by holding to the Law.

In 2 Corinthians 12 below, paradise is being described as heaven in the same way as how Luke uses it with the thief on the cross.

1 I must boast; not that it is profitable, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I know someone in Christ who, fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows), was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know that this person (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows)
4 was caught up into Paradise and heard ineffable things, which no one may utter.
5 About this person I will boast, but about myself I will not boast, except about my weaknesses.
6 Although if I should wish to boast, I would not be foolish, for I would be telling the truth. But I refrain, so that no one may think more of me than what he sees in me or hears from me
7 because of the abundance of the revelations. Therefore, that I might not become too elated, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, an angel of Satan, to beat me, to keep me from being too elated.
8 Three times I begged the Lord about this, that it might leave me,
9 but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness.” I will rather boast most gladly of my weaknesses,* in order that the power of Christ may dwell with me.
10 Therefore, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and constraints, for the sake of Christ;e for when I am weak, then I am strong.

Also in revelation 2, paradise is used again in the same way = tree of life = heaven. KJV below

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Tree of life…Revelation 22

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was **there the tree of life, **which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

The tree of life is in front of the throne of God (in heaven) which is the same as being in the midst of the Paradise of God.

“Unless a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” This is the scripture I have been quoted from that keeps little chidlren from the kingdom of God but sent to hell if they have died before they were baptized. And now you are saying that a Thief that confessed to Jesus said that he deserved to die and Jesus did not, was forgiven of his sins? Perhaps he was, but there is more to salvation than repenting. If Jesus went to paradise which you believe is in the presense of God, then why did he tell Mary " touch me not, for I have not acsended to my Father which is in Heaven" This would mean that even though the Thief went to paradise, that did not mean that it was in the presense of God.