LDS View of the Great Apostasy

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Fatboys said:
This would mean that even though the Thief went to paradise, that did not mean that it was in the presense of God.
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So you are saying that the unbaptized thief, whom Jesus said would be with him in paradise, went to hell, according to LDS theology?
 
Z_Ninja said:
I have no words after reading that statement. So… Jesus was so weak that a) his church failed and now b) he being God, was not able to forgive the thief.
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This is not a question about what God can and cannot do. This is a question about how everyone, including a thief, needs to repent and be baptized in order to be saved. It seems an entirely false doctrine has spread out with this scripture as justification.
 
Janderich said:
This is not a question about what God can and cannot do. This is a question about how everyone, including a thief, needs to repent and be baptized in order to be saved. It seems an entirely false doctrine has spread out with this scripture as justification.
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a) Again, the Sacraments are for us, not for God.

b) Jesus didn’t say to the thief, “repent and be baptized”.

c) Where does it say “everyone”? Jesus and apostolic teachings are quite clear, one must be taught and accept Jesus before one is saved, IN THIS LIFE. The Mormon idea of being baptized after this life is over, is pointless, not to mention irrational. Also clear that a person who has not been taught isn’t judged on what they don’t know. Being judged according to knowledge is a gnostic heresy. One does not have to be an intellectual elite in order to be saved.

You’re dead, and a Mormon missionary knocks on your spirit prison cell door and says, 'hey, if you want out you need to listen to me and accept a baptism that has been done for you". Seriously, you think this represents a choice?
 
PRmerger said:
So you are saying that someone can be in Paradise but then go to hell? Yes, or no.

Note the place that the thief went to was PARADISE. Not prison.
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Strictly based on my own understanding of LDS teaching I would guess that it may be possible but I have heard no statement on the matter. All have free will, and choices may still be made in the spirit world.
 
Janderich said:
Strictly based on my own understanding of LDS teaching I would guess that it may be possible but I have heard no statement on the matter. All have free will, and choices may still be made in the spirit world.
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This sounds like something out of the Poetic Edda or tales from other pagan sources :rolleyes:
 
RebeccaJ said:
a) Again, the Sacraments are for us, not for God.

b) Jesus didn’t say to the thief, “repent and be baptized”.

c) Where does it say “everyone”? Jesus and apostolic teachings are quite clear, one must be taught and accept Jesus before one is saved, IN THIS LIFE. The Mormon idea of being baptized after this life is over, is pointless, not to mention irrational. Also clear that a person who has not been taught isn’t judged on what they don’t know. Being judged according to knowledge is a gnostic heresy. One does not have to be an intellectual elite in order to be saved.

You’re dead, and a Mormon missionary knocks on your spirit prison cell door and says, 'hey, if you want out you need to listen to me and accept a baptism that has been done for you". Seriously, you think this represents a choice?
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Rebecca, there is so much misrepresentation of our beliefs in your above comment that it would take me a long time to unravel your many half truths and confusion you present. The sad thing is, I think you know it.
 
Janderich said:
Rebecca, there is so much misrepresentation of our beliefs in your above comment that it would take me a long time to unravel your many half truths and confusion you present. The sad thing is, I think you know it.
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I think you are mistaken, and know it.
 
PRmerger said:
So you are saying that the unbaptized thief, whom Jesus said would be with him in paradise, went to hell, according to LDS theology?
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No, after death there are two places we go. Those who are righteous or have done good and repented go to paradise. Those who have done evil and were unrighteous go to spirit prison. Both places await the resurrection from the dead.1Peter 3: 18"For Christ hath also one suffered for sin, the just for the unjust, bring us to God being put to death in the flesh but quicked in the spirit.19which he also went and preached unto the spirits in prison20ch sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was a preparing where in few that is eight souls were saved by water
21 The like figure where unto baptism doth also now save us…
 
Janderich said:
Rebecca, there is so much misrepresentation of our beliefs in your above comment that it would take me a long time to unravel your many half truths and confusion you present. The sad thing is, I think you know it.
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Originally Posted by RebeccaJ View Post
a) Again, the Sacraments are for us, not for God.
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b) Jesus didn’t say to the thief, “repent and be baptized”.
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c) Where does it say “everyone”? Jesus and apostolic teachings are quite clear, one must be taught and accept Jesus before one is saved, IN THIS LIFE. The Mormon idea of being baptized after this life is over, is pointless, not to mention irrational. Also clear that a person who has not been taught isn’t judged on what they don’t know. Being judged according to knowledge is a gnostic heresy. One does not have to be an intellectual elite in order to be saved.
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You’re dead, and a Mormon missionary knocks on your spirit prison cell door and says, 'hey, if you want out you need to listen to me and accept a baptism that has been done for you". Seriously, you think this represents a choice?
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Where is the misrepresentation, A, B, C or the conclusion? Could you address it please.
 
RebeccaJ said:
a) Again, the Sacraments are for us, not for God.

b) Jesus didn’t say to the thief, “repent and be baptized”.

c) Where does it say “everyone”? Jesus and apostolic teachings are quite clear, one must be taught and accept Jesus before one is saved, IN THIS LIFE. The Mormon idea of being baptized after this life is over, is pointless, not to mention irrational. Also clear that a person who has not been taught isn’t judged on what they don’t know. Being judged according to knowledge is a gnostic heresy. One does not have to be an intellectual elite in order to be saved.

You’re dead, and a Mormon missionary knocks on your spirit prison cell door and says, 'hey, if you want out you need to listen to me and accept a baptism that has been done for you". Seriously, you think this represents a choice?
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Let me see if I have this correct. Do you believe that those that have not heard of Jesus Christ can be saved? Where do they go after death?
 
Fatboys said:
Let me see if I have this correct. Do you believe that those that have not heard of Jesus Christ can be saved? Where do they go after death?
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Yes people who have not heard of Jesus Christ can be saved.
Do you think God is unable to save who he pleases?
 
RebeccaJ said:
Yes. It isn’t knowledge that saves us, it is a Person, Jesus Christ.

Heaven (some/most by way of purgatory) or hell.
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So if a person has never heard of Jesus Christ, and they are in purgatory, they can still be saved? Then what is the purpose of the laws God has given to us. Why should we need the sacrament, or baptism, or anything?
 
RebeccaJ said:
Do you believe Jesus has the authority to forgive sins?
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Only those how have repented from those sins. If Christ forgave someone who has not repented, then that would thwart the purpose of the atonement.
 
Fatboys said:
So if a person has never heard of Jesus Christ, and they are in purgatory, they can still be saved? Then what is the purpose of the laws God has given to us. Why should we need the sacrament, or baptism, or anything?
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If they are in purgatory then they are on their way to heaven and They are Holy Souls Because Jesus The God of us all the ONE TRUE GOD commands it!
 
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