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Fatboys
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Okay wherer would someone who has never heard of Jesus Christ go after death?
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ThatOrthodoxGuy
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Before I say I am not Catholic but have read on the subject by catholic authors. It depends on the life they lived and if they would have accepted The Lord if they had the chance to know him but if they would have rejected him then hell .God can read hearts, So its his choice. God is all-merciful and all-compassionate.
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Cat_Herder
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The problem here is that Fatboys does not accept the divinity of Christ or even that such a thing as divinity exists. Simply put he has no concept of an infinite transcendent eternal God, which is why he’s imposing limits on Christ.
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PRmerger
Guest
So the good thief, then, according to LDS theology, went to inherit one of the 3 kingdoms, yes?
Or can someone who’s in paradise still go to hell?
That’s the only 2 choices you are left with, Fatboys: either the good thief went on to inherit his kingdom, or he went to hell.
If you say it’s the latter, then you believe someone can first be in paradise, and then go to hell.
If you believe it’s the former, then the objection to the Catholic teaching on baptism is refuted.
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PRmerger
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To heaven or to hell, depending upon how invincibly ignorant he is.
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Porknpie
Guest
Fatboys…this is very Catholic in teaching. Baptism can be by water, but also by desire and blood (martyrs).
We are hopeful that an all loving God would offer salvation to all that have not known him. This includes babies but also non-Catholics who either do not know Christ through no fault of their own and/or who have an improper understanding of Christ and do not baptize with the correct words of baptism and understanding of the Trinity. The latter would include the LDS.
Also, the thief was not only forgiven by Christ but served his penance on the cross having been crucified, his legs broken. There is certainly an amount of mystery to Christs words. “On this day” can be interpreted multiple ways…God is beyond time so what is a “day”? The words themselves “on this day”, with emphasis on the word day changes the meaning, similar to “truly truly I say to you”, it can be taken as a point of emphasis. Also, I understand that the greek text does not have a comma…someone else can explain more fully. Always remember that God is beyond time and is not limited. He can be simultaneously, here today, yesterday, tomorrow and 10,000 years from today … and a day to God can be a million, billion years for us.
Below is the Haydock commentary:
Ver. 17. I will not leave you again; be not in a hurry to touch me; you shall all have this pleasure. I will remain with you some time, before my ascension. Announce my resurrection to my apostles. You shall see me again. This is the interpretation most modern commentators put upon this place. Others suppose, that Magdalene imagined he was risen from the dead to live with men as before, like Lazarus. He addresses these words to her to disabuse her of this notion. (Calmet)
Augustine of Hippo is very similar in one of his homilies
- Forasmuch then as we could in no way have had this blessedness by which we see not and yet believe, unless we received it of the Holy Ghost; it is with good reason said, “It is expedient for you that I go away. For if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.” By His Divinity indeed He is with us always; but unless He had in Body gone away from us, we had always seen His Body after the flesh. and never believed after a spiritual sort; by the which belief justified and blessed we might attain with cleansed hearts to contemplate the Very Word, God with God, “by whom all things were made,” and “who was made Flesh, that He might dwell among us.” And if not with the contact of the hand, but “with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;” with good reason is the world, which will not believe save what it sees, convinced of our righteousness. Now that we might have that righteousness of faith of which the unbelieving world should be convinced, therefore said the Lord, “Of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye shall see Me no more.” As if He had said, “This shall be your righteousness, that ye believe on Me, the Mediator, of whom ye shall be most fully assured that He is risen again and gone to the Father, though ye see Him not after the Flesh; that by Him reconciled, ye may be able to see God after the Spirit.” Whence He saith to the woman who represents the Church, when she fell at His Feet after His Resurrection, “Touch Me not, for I am not yet ascended to the Father.” Which expression is understood mystically, thus. “Believe not in Me after a carnal manner by means of bodily contact; but thou shall believe after a spiritual manner; that is, with a spiritual faith shalt touch Me, when I shall have ascended to the Father.” For, “blessed are they who do not see, and believe.” And this is the righteousness of faith, of which the world, which hath it not, is convinced of us who are not without it; for “the just liveth by faith.” Whether it be then that as rising again in Him, and in Him coming to the Father, we are invisibly and in justification perfected; or that as not seeing and yet believing we live by faith, for that “the just liveth by faith;” with these meanings said He, “Of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye shall see Me no more.”
Remember that doubting Thomas did touch Christ on another appearance after his resurrection and before his ascension to the right hand of God. So it wasn’t simply that Mary Magdelene could not physically touch Christ (or “cling to him”).
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Porknpie
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Or can you get stuck in paradise ?
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Z_Ninja
Guest
What?!? but, you are questioning what God/Jesus can do. And what false doctrine are you talking about? Jesus answered your question about how everyone needs to repent and be baptized. Jesus told the thief, “Today, You will be with me in Paradise.” So, now you are saying Jesus lied to the thief. You’ll be in paradise, psyche, you’re not baptized and no ordinances so you go to Hell, do not pass GO do not collect $200.
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PRmerger
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Yes, perhaps that will be the LDS answer to this corner that they have backed themselves into.
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Fatboys
Guest
After we die our spirit leaves our body and goes to one of two places. If we have done good we go to paradise, if we have done evil we go to spirit prison. Those that go to paradise are those who have kept the laws of God to the best of their abilities. Paradise is a place of rest from the temtations of the wicked. But this is not Heaven. As I have said before, when Christ told the thief that he would be with him in paradise, he had not yet gone to his Fathers house. While his body lay in the tomb, his spirit went to the spirit world which included paradise and prison. There he prepared the way of the preaching of the Gospel there. 1 Peter 3:19-21 This was for the purpose of those having not heard of know of Christ or followed his laws a chance at accepting the gospel so they can be judge fairly and justly with in the confines of Mercy and grace. 1 Peter 4:6. When he appeared to Mary, she ran to him and he said, “Touch me not, for I have not yet asscended to my Father which is in Heaven.” Christ could forgive anyone he wants, but it would over ride justice. Mercy can not rob justice. There is a process that a person has to go through in order for them to receive Mercy. That process requires the person to recongize their sins, and then repent from them. Of couse Christ also takes into account the persons heart. I am sure that at the day of Judgement we are going to be much harder on ourselves than Christ will be. He looks at our potential and our sincere efforts. If is beyond me to think that a person who has never heard of Christ and dies, will not be required the same teachings and covenants we go through in this life. That makes the gospel unbalanced and unfair. In the mortal world life is unfair, but in the eternities it gets corrected.
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Fatboys
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He had already been resurrected. He told Mary that he had not yet gone to see his Father. When Thomas touched Christ this was after the meeting with Mary. So I would assume he had then gone to his Father. Mary loved Christ and unlike Thomas had no thoughts of his physcial presense. Resurrection means a rejoining of the spirit with the physical body as we learn after Thomas had touched him. Now let me say this as well. I have never condemned Catholics to Hell just because they believe differently than me. I believe that Hell is coming face to face with the person you could have been. If a person is presented the gospel and rejects it, and when they come before Christ at the judgement seat, Christ will ask them why they rejected it. “Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is the Christ” That person will then realize the mistake they made and be in a mental hell that will be far worse than any physical hell can provide.
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Fatboys
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How should I know? He now has the opportunity that he did not have before. The Thief still has to accept all of the gospel. Just because a person dies, all they know is that it is either a pleasant place or a place where there is weeping and waling and knashing of teeth. I would prefer the pleasant place. But they still just know they are dead. They still have to have faith in Christ and the Father, and there were be those in the spirit world that will still reject the gospel. After the judgement there are three main glories, kingdoms or manions. Within these three are many mansions. A person who did not live the laws and was evil will go to the lowest. Those that lived to the best of their mortal abilities to live the laws of God and make covenants with him, and live by those promises has the opportunity to reach the highest kingdom or manision.
I don't know what corner you feel I have locked myself into, but I have asked some very specific questions which have been answered with very vague answers. Why would God allow those who have never heard of Christ bypass his laws by allowing them to reach the kingdome of God without all the covenants that those who have heard them do.?
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Porknpie
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FB, no assumption is needed here. Sripture and church history says he did not ascend until the 40th day.
Acts chapter 1.
1 In the first book,a Theophilus, I dealt with all that Jesus did and taught
2 until the day he was taken up, after giving instructions through the holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.
3 He presented himself alive to them by many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during **forty days *and speaking about the kingdom of God.
4 While meeting with them, he enjoined them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for “the promise of the Father about which you have heard me speak;
5 for John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the holy Spirit.”
Christ spoke for 40 days to the apostles about the kingdom of God. What has been passed on through the Church, first from Christ, then to the apostles and to their successors does not fit LDS theology on the afterlife. Either Christ instructed them in error or all twelve of them did not understand. It’s impossible for any Catholic could believe that Jesus Christ, could come to earth to save us and having been crucified, instructed his Church so poorly that they would immediately not know what he was talking about. Believing so would be the “Great Error” not the “Great Apostasy”. Neither occurred.
The Ascension of Jesus.
6 When they had gathered together they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going* to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He answered them, “It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has established by his own authority.
8 But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.
9 When he had said this, as they were looking on,** he was lifted up, and a cloud took him from their **sight.
FB, this misses the whole point of my previous post and the commentaries. Just the opposite, Mary Magdelene was thinking of his physical presence.
And neither do we of LDS.
He won’t have to ask, Christ already knows (both here now and then)
The person will be “cast off” and separated from God. Not just a mental hell.
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Z_Ninja
Guest
Why do you think God would be limited to the very laws he created? You seem to want to limit or diminish the power of God and what he is capable of. Whether it is granting salvation at conception, Mary, or being able to absolve a thief.
The thief is showing that he is accepting his punishment and is also reaching out to Jesus. The first thief only mocks Jesus.
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PRmerger
Guest
Ah, I see, then.
So it’s unknown what happened to the good thief–he was told he was going to paradise, but it’s unknown if he went to hell?
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PRmerger
Guest
I am still waiting for your source from Humanae Vitae that tells you that Catholics believe that sex is ONLY for procreation.
(You claimed after reading HV that this is what it said. I have asked, at least 3 times, for you to clarify where it was you read that in HV but thus far you have not addressed it.)
You said so right here:
Please show us where you read that. Thanks.
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twopekinguys
Guest
At least you’ve gotten answers. We repeatedly request sources from you and don’t get a thing.
Have you ever found a reference for your statement that 99% of the changes to the BoM were punctuation and grammar? How long have we been waiting for that answer. By the way, I showed you at least 2 doctrinal changes to the BoM.
You really amaze me. Just about every mormon that has posted on here has disputed the god was once man thing as never being doctrine, but yet you claim it is. Who is right, you or mormon apologists? The last I knew, the King Follett Discourse was not considered scripture by mormons.
Can’t wait for this answer.
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Porknpie
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Fat-
God desires all to be saved. He is not bound by laws which is good for you.
. But you are asking the wrong question. St Ignatius writes in 110 AD. Do you believe the great schism was in place already? The early church got it wrong immediately from the apostles who were taught by Christ?Ignatius of Antioch
**“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism , he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine , he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).
To follow St Ignatius…who followed Christ…or to follow Joseph Smith 1800 years later? That is the question.****
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kimg901
Guest
It all makes perfect sense now why the mormons are limiting God. They believe God was once a man that walked the earth. So if God was a man, then He can make mistakes and would be limited to what He could do. 
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Fatboys
Guest
Fat-
God desires all to be saved. He is not bound by laws which is good for you.
Ignatius of Antioch
**“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism , he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine , he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).
The bread and wine represent symboliclly the flesh and blood. This is how we are saved through the torn flesh and the blood that was spilt. His sacrifice not only on the cross but for every act against him for as he was whipped and spit on and the crown of thorns paid for our sins. The pain and suffering he had in the Garden where it was so painful that he sweat as it were great drops of blood. This sacrifice satisfied justice in our behalf by giving us Mercy. All this was done through the Grace of God.
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