LDS View of the Great Apostasy

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Janderich said:
Very well first is God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. The doctrine of the Trinity was not taught in the Old Testement or New Testament and only developed over time. You can find more about this change in doctrine here.

God the Eternal Father

God is the Supreme ruler of the universe whom we worship. Moreover he, “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22). We are literally his children and he is our Father. Before this world began, we as spirits, were begotten of him. He is our father we are his sons and daughters. “For in him we live, and move, and have our being; … For we are also his offspring.” (Acts 17:28).

Jesus Christ

Jesus is the Firstborn of the Father in Spirit and the Only Begotten of the Father in the Flesh. He is God’s son. As God’s son, he is individual, separate and distinct from the Father. He came on earth to atone for all mankind. Through his great sacrifice we may be saved. All those who have ever lived, if they accept him, may likewise be saved. At his resurrection his spirit joined his body never to be separated again. All who have ever lived will likewise be resurrected. Through his priesthood the work of salvation is carried on.

Holy Ghost

The Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit also separate and distinct from the Father and Son. As a member of the Godhead he testifies of truth. He is a revelator, through him we may gain a testimony of truth.
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Jan,

Here is the CAF answer to the OT and NT.

catholic.com/quickquestions/was-the-trinity-ever-contemplated-expected-imagined-prophesied-or-talked-about-before

catholic.com/tracts/the-trinity
 
CopticChristian said:
Fat,

Solomon flunked this test…the quest for Money-Sex-Power seems to be rampant in those that tend to lead others into untruth. You say that Jo had no money…? Ok…what about Sex-Power?

Your comment on Jesus is ignored…he had no Money-Sex and the Power he used among other things was to forgive sin, perform miracles and to raise Himself from the dead, something that Jo Smith could not do.
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Of course it is being ignored.
 
Fatboys said:
Of course it is being ignored.
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Fat,

I imagine that this will also be ignored…🙂

nccg.org/NCMM/LDS2-43.html
A Mormon apologist once wrote and said: “The following list of Biblical scriptures support the Book of Mormon 100%. Some of them actually prophesy of the Book of Mormon”. Let’s take a look at one of them and see:
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Revelation 22:18-19 “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book”.
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How is this scripture supposed to support the Book of Mormon, let alone prophesy of it?? It’s talking about the complete nature of the Book of Revelation and nothing else. It is not talking about other scriptures coming forth. The warning is simply not to add or delete anything in the prophecy.
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On the other hand, Joseph Smith qualifies 100% for the plagues which those who mutilate the text shall receive, for he made changes to every single chapter of the book, and to 85 verses in total. Whilst some changes are minor and merely spelling alterations, others are serious mutilations. For instance, in the LDS “Joseph Smith Translation” (JST) - or its RLDS equivalent , the “Inspired Version” (IV).
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Let’s take some examples. The JST records: “Blessed are they who read, and they who hear and understand the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein, for the time of the coming of the Lord draweth nigh”. The KJV reads: “Blessed is he that readeth, and that they hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand” (Rev.1:3).
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No MS mentions “the coming of the Lord” and whilst that might be the implication, it is still an “adding” to the text.
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I could cite dozens of examples where Joseph Smith has liberally “added” to the text. Here’s another from the JST: “Now this is the testimony of John to the seven servants who are over the churches in Asia. Grace unto you, and peace from him who is, and who was and who is to come; who hath sent forth his angel from before his throne, to testify unto those who are the seven servants over the seven churches”. The KJV reads: “John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne” (Rev.1:4). For those Mormons who can count, you will see that the JST has 58 words whereas the KJV only has 37. That means, in the English at least, 21 new words have been added. Not only that, but he has deliberately changed the clear meaning of the Greek pneumaton which can only be translated “spirits”. It can never be translated “servants” for which other words exist, namely, diakonos (minister), doulos (servant, slave), therapón (servant, attendant), oiketés (domestic house servant), pais (boy servant) and hupéretés (underling). Had John wished to convey the conecpt of a servant in the sense Joseph Smith means, he would undoubtedly have used diakonos.
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Joseph Smith goes on to mutilate Rev.3:1 (JST - “…who hath the seven stars, which are the seven servants of God…” cp. KJV - “that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars”), Rev.4:5 (JST - “…the seven servants of God” cp KJV - “the seven Spirits of God”), and Rev.5:6 (ditto). Without exception every Bible translation renders etta pneumaton as either “seven Spirits” or “sevenfold Spirit” (e.g. NIV).
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Joseph Smith and his “Translation” stand condemned. Far from lending support to the Book of Mormon, it actually blasts his claim to prophethood to shreds. The issue - lest any Mormon uses it as a smokescreen - is not the interpretation of this passage, but the wanton mutilation of the text, and the consequences clearly spelled out for those who engage in such.
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RebeccaJ said:
You’re welcome.

Great story. I think it happens at one time or another to everyone. 😃 My worst one occurred in jr. high. I grew up in a very racist household and extended family, what they believed was supported by what I was being taught in primary and Sunday school. At that time, the priesthood ban was still in effect, with all the reasoning given behind it in my primary and Sunday school classes. The kind of teachings that you call “opinion”. (Are you getting the theme here yet? Everything you say is anti-Mormon I was taught by Mormons, as a Mormon.)

Anyway, racial slurs around our house were insults that you threw around at your siblings, and strangers who were “ignernt”. So one day in jr. high, I was about 12 years old, I was having a conversation with a friend, we were teasing each other back and forth, having a good time, when I called her the “N” word. She laughed and walked away to class, I turned around, and standing there was the only African American girl in the school. The only African American girl that had ever been in any school I had gone to. The look on her face, one of anger and hurt, told me clearly that I had said something wrong. I hurried off to class, but to this day, have never used that word again.

At any rate, yes, Adam/God doctrine was taught to me as well as all the racist beliefs surrounding the priesthood ban.

People like you say, it wasn’t doctrine, but it was and still is by many Mormons, BELIEVED. Why, because it what has been taught. You keep trying to create a demarcation between doctrine and belief, but there isn’t one. Belief comes from what you are taught, and what you are taught causes you to believe. Who in the heck cares whether or not you label it doctrine?

When you come to realize that what you are taught should not be believed, then you are on your way to watching Smith & Co.'s house of cards fall. You keep trying to keep every individual card propped up, why? Wouldn’t you think that truth should not need props and it should be able to stand, as a rock, firmly, on its own?

Well then Fatboys, here’s the corner you have painted yourself into. If you strip away all of the oddities of Mormonism, what you say is not essential to your Salvation, what do you have left? NOTHING that needed to be restored, that is for certain. Everything essential to your Salvation is in Christ’s Church, the same Church established by Christ, the same Church that has through the ages been serving her mission to bring people to Christ. For their Salvation.

Smith is superfluous to the event of Christ, his church just one among many that were fired up by people during the second great awakening in the U.S.

Show me in this doctrine about doctrine then. Where does it say in your scriptures that your doctrine is only found in scriptures?
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Rebecca, I am sort of middle aged or older, but I had never heard of the Adam/God until my mission and I was 22 when I went. I did not know alot about it and don’t know that it was a doctrine taught for many many years before I was a glint in my daddy’s eye. As I said, it is a complex teaching, and there is not much known about it. So I am surprised that you were taught it. Maybe I was, but I do not remember being taught. I did go to church in my pre teens but seldom in my teens. Although it is complex it is understandable.

As far as being racist, well you probably know all the talk about it. Although Elija Abel was a black that Joseph Smith ordained to the priesthood and moved to Salt Lake with the rest of saints.
 
Fatboys said:
Rebecca, I am sort of middle aged or older, but I had never heard of the Adam/God until my mission and I was 22 when I went. I did not know alot about it and don’t know that it was a doctrine taught for many many years before I was a glint in my daddy’s eye. As I said, it is a complex teaching, and there is not much known about it. So I am surprised that you were taught it. Maybe I was, but I do not remember being taught. I did go to church in my pre teens but seldom in my teens. Although it is complex it is understandable.

As far as being racist, well you probably know all the talk about it. Although Elija Abel was a black that Joseph Smith ordained to the priesthood and moved to Salt Lake with the rest of saints.
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Fat,

You keep avoiding the truths and the lack of truth of what former LDS people are telling you. Elija Abel was ordained…but look here…
Following is the text of Elijah Abel’s Patriarchal Blessing, pronounced by Joseph Smith, Sr., circa 1836:
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[Patriarchal] Blessing of Elijah Able who was born in Frederick County, Maryland, July 25th 1808.
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Brother Able, in the name of Jesus Christ I lay my hands upon thy head to bless thee and thou shalt be blessed even forever. I seal upon thee a father’s blessing, because thou art an orphan, for thy father, hath never done his duty toward thee, but the Lord hast had his eye upon thee, and brought thee through straits and thou hast come to be rec[k]oned with the saints of the most High. Thou hast been ordained an Elder and anointed to secure thee against the power of the destroyer. Thou shalt see his power in laying waste the nations, & the wicked slaying the wicked, while blood shall run down the streets like water, and thy heart shall weep over their calamities. Angels shall visit thee and thou shalt receive comfort. They shall call thee blessed and deliver thee from thine enemies. They shall break thy bands and keep thee from afflictions. Thy name is written in the Lamb’s book of life.
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Thou shalt travel in the East and visit foreign countries, speak in all various tongues, and thou shalt be able to teach different languages. Thou shall see visions of this world and other worlds and comprehend the laws of all kingdoms, and confound the wisdom of this generation. Thy life shall be preserved to a good old age. Thou must seek first the kingdom of heaven and all blessings shall be added thereunto. **Thou shalt be made equal to thy brethren and thy soul be white in eternity and thy robes glittering: thou shalt receive these blessings because of the covenants of thy fathers. **Thou shalt save thousands, do much good, and receive all the power that thou needest to accomplish thy mission. These and all the blessings which thou canst desire in righteousness, I seal upon thee, in the name of Jesus, Amen.
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How is it you can cling to false teaching while posting on the CAF that keeps telling you that the One Holy Catholic Church never went apostate and the only apostates are those that deny the truth…:confused:
 
Fatboys said:
Rebecca, I am sort of middle aged or older, but I had never heard of the Adam/God until my mission and I was 22 when I went. I did not know alot about it and don’t know that it was a doctrine taught for many many years before I was a glint in my daddy’s eye. As I said, it is a complex teaching, and there is not much known about it. So I am surprised that you were taught it. Maybe I was, but I do not remember being taught. I did go to church in my pre teens but seldom in my teens. Although it is complex it is understandable.

As far as being racist, well you probably know all the talk about it. Although Elija Abel was a black that Joseph Smith ordained to the priesthood and moved to Salt Lake with the rest of saints.
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Seminary is where I learned the Adam/God doctrine of Brigham Young.

Elijah Abel was never mentioned in any of my Mormon courses. Never heard of him until much later. Twenty years at least. It raises more questions than answers, don’t you think? For one, according to your definition of doctrine, there should be something in your scriptures about a priesthood ban. There isn’t. If you look then at the practice, Smith did not institute it, Young did. So there was a change, as evidenced by men such as Elijah Abel, who was ordained by Smith, and a priesthood ban instituted by Brigham Young. Who had it right? Your church leaders today sure aren’t saying.
 
Fatboys said:
en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Legal_issues/Trials/1826_glasslooking_trial

I was doing some research and ran across this article, thought you might find it interesting
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Fat,

God created the universe and is able to keep the stars and the moon and the heavens in place.

God chose Israel to be the people of God. He gave them 10 commandments, and the OT is a history of their wandering and disobedience. Throughout this episode beliefs remained constant even though many wandered away and were disobdedient. Samaritans mentioned in the Bible are present today as a historical artifact of the people that are mentioned in the story.

God sent His Son and performed his mission, he had Apostles and the mission was accomplished with death and resurrection. He returned for a short time and then ascended to heaven.

There was never an apostasy in the first century. It is a figment of the LDS imagination. There is no history of any such thing by any Church or any outside historian. To believe that God can create the universe, keep that in order, lead the people of Israel and keep them in order and then swallow the lie that an apostasy occured immediately if fantasy. This is fact.

LDS thoughts never occured to anyone but Joseph Smith and those that swallowed his subsequent thoughts that are far from being true.

The planet of Kolob, Lucifer and Jesus being brothers, God the father becoming man to produce Jesus by relating with Mary carnally, believing you will someday be a god, wearing underwear as a reminder of all this nonsense does not change the fact that it is nonsense.

What happened to Joseph Smith, his trials, tribulations are not relevant to the lies he told and the people that swallowed those lies.

Research for the truth and the truth will set you free…
 
RebeccaJ said:
Seminary is where I learned the Adam/God doctrine of Brigham Young.

Elijah Abel was never mentioned in any of my Mormon courses. Never heard of him until much later. Twenty years at least. It raises more questions than answers, don’t you think? For one, according to your definition of doctrine, there should be something in your scriptures about a priesthood ban. There isn’t. If you look then at the practice, Smith did not institute it, Young did. So there was a change, as evidenced by men such as Elijah Abel, who was ordained by Smith, and a priesthood ban instituted by Brigham Young. Who had it right? Your church leaders today sure aren’t saying.
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You have to look at the dynamics of the time. You can not place the same values they had at that time that we have now. What was accepted then as common amoung all would not be accepted today. And even though those who were of negro blood(for there were blacks not of Negro blood that held the priesthood) were denied the priesthood, they were not denied any blessings if they remained obedient to the restored gospel. They were promised that some day it would be lifted. Also understand that in biblical history very few held the priesthood. During Moses’ time only the tribe of Levi held the priesthood. Now I don’t know why there was a ban. I have my own opinions but it makes no difference now because all worthy males can hold the priesthood.
 
Pork_Roll said:
A Mormons faith is based on feelings (testimony): “burning in bosom”. I don’t think arguing with Mormons will get anywhere. Even the Smithsonian has said that the BOM is fiction. But there are millions of people in this country who believe this fabrication. It’s sad.
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So please tell me how you know that you are more correct than I am?
 
Fatboys said:
So please tell me how you know that you are more correct than I am?
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It’s called 2,000 years of proven history, vs. some 182 years of fantasy. In short, nothing that your “church” teaches can be verified by outside sources. Real Christianity can. No amount of “burning bosom” testimony can change that.
 
Fatboys said:
So please tell me how you know that you are more correct than I am?
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Fat,

Scripture, the Church and recorded history aside, also take a look at this … Incorruptible saints. Is there a Mormon equivalent? The fact that God has preserved some Catholic saints and not one Mormon prophet, speaks volumes to his establishing the Catholic Church as his church on earth. No restoration needed.

listverse.com/2007/08/21/top-10-incorrupt-corpses/
 
Fatboys said:
You have to look at the dynamics of the time. You can not place the same values they had at that time that we have now. What was accepted then as common amoung all would not be accepted today. And even though those who were of negro blood(for there were blacks not of Negro blood that held the priesthood) were denied the priesthood, they were not denied any blessings if they remained obedient to the restored gospel. They were promised that some day it would be lifted. Also understand that in biblical history very few held the priesthood. During Moses’ time only the tribe of Levi held the priesthood. Now I don’t know why there was a ban.** I have my own opinions but it makes no difference now because all worthy males can hold the priesthood./**
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Fatboys said:
You have to look at the dynamics of the time. You can not place the same values they had at that time that we have now. What was accepted then as common amoung all would not be accepted today. And even though those who were of negro blood(for there were blacks not of Negro blood that held the priesthood) were denied the priesthood, they were not denied any blessings if they remained obedient to the restored gospel. They were promised that some day it would be lifted. Also understand that in biblical history very few held the priesthood. During Moses’ time only the tribe of Levi held the priesthood. Now I don’t know why there was a ban. I have my own opinions but it makes no difference now because all worthy males can hold the priesthood.
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Platitudes. Not to mention how ill it makes me feel. Your really should think about what you just said here.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Platitudes. Not to mention how ill it makes me feel. Your really should think about what you just said here.
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Again, this is like the teapot calling the kettle black. Your own religion is full of mysteries and unanswered questions. You can not place the same value we have today and try to force it onto what they believed then. Catholic missionaries forced those to accept their teachings during exploration of the world and islands of the sea. This would be unacceptable in our day.
 
batman1973 said:
It’s called 2,000 years of proven history, vs. some 182 years of fantasy. In short, nothing that your “church” teaches can be verified by outside sources. Real Christianity can. No amount of “burning bosom” testimony can change that.
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How do you know that it is correct? Are you saying that history is what makes a belief true?

How did Peter know it was true?
 
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